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I wouldn't be in a hurry to run a 2% premix in it......4 or. 5% is standard for piston ported motors if I recall....
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I did my oil change today, and decided to pull the jug to inspect the cylinder and rings.
That's where I found my first example of true bodge- tasticness.

First off, I had a really bad time removing the stud at 11:00. The threads at the block end were pretty chewed from fighting me all the way out of the cylinder. It struck me as odd, but the stud was straight. I recut the threads and moved on. The rest of the studs were fine.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
As you can see, there was blow- by on the head, but other than that, not so bad, right? But wait. There's more...

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
The cylinder and piston are, in fact, a new LML 5 port. They broke in nicely, but if you look really closely, you will see that they didn't bother to chamfer the ports. That's a big no-no, as they can easily snag a ring and shatter it. Shadooby.*
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Piston and bottom end are happy, but check out that helicoil job at 11:00. That explains why the stud was so hard to remove; it's an oversize stud.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Bottom end is happy.

Now comes the good part: Look at the head after I cleaned it up...
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Kinda tells the story all on it's own, but I'll elaborate. This head was in a motor that previously kerploded. They half-ass machined it flat, and welded in a new spark plug tube. Laughing emoticon
I can't for the life of me figure out why they would do this, rather than use the head that came with the LML kit. Surely *this* isn't higher quality and machine tolerance than an aftermarket head??

Thankfully, I was planning on replacing the jug anyway (Polini 177), but if you were to buy one of these using my method, you might end up with this and have to fork out additional cash to get it done the right way. Or risk getting stranded in the middle of nowhere...

I cleaned up everything that was iffy (except the franken-head) and reassembled it. Head torque 13 ft/lbs. Please let me know if you think I should change the torque.

Also, can I get confirmation on Davetopay's suggestion? Should I be running 4% premix in this motor?

I completed the oil change and took it down to the store for cigs and beer. Runs fine for now.

Best,
-Slashy

*Thanks to The Rolling Stones, I am unable to think of the word "shatter" without immediately saying "shadooby" out loud. It's an affliction.
#TheStruggleIsReal
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See, Slashy, you're trying to think logically, thinking of an LML barrel and head as a "set". You silly guy!

Why use both new parts to make one scoot run well when you can split the parts up and make two scoots run, well. One with a toasted barrel, the other with a toasted head.

Gotta admit it's impressive what they did with the head...I guess when labor is THAT cheap, it makes sense to take the time to Frankenstein a piece together rather than purchasing a new head. Is there any chance you can mill the head flat to keep using it to see how long it lasts before it blows the spark plug out?
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Larrytsg wrote:
Is there any chance you can mill the head flat to keep using it to see how long it lasts before it blows the spark plug out?
Larrytsg,
I broke out my pneumatic sanding block, sanded it flat, and reinstalled it. I will run on this franken- head until the weather gives out, but it's going in the scrap heap once winter sets in. I'll be installing a bigger jug and taller gears for improved cruise this winter, so I'll have the opportunity to split the cases and poke around the innards.
In the meantime... it will either continue to perform well or leave me stuck in the boonies. Time will tell...

Best,
-Slashy
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the oil/leak from head is pretty much 'normal'... for most Vespas
the head with welded in plug is pretty much 'normal'... for most bodges (I have a couple of these heads which look much the same from bodge motors)
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My apologies. I spoke without knowing the details of your motor, which is bad form on my part. I was thinking of the issue from the viewpoint of oil mix for an older piston ported motor, not a rotary valve application.

Please, go about your business and keep the fun coming. I am really enjoying your thread.
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Is that JB Weld?

Do the stamps on the cases match?
I've the 2-3 digit number that show matched cases, look under motor, from memory there is a case bolt next to it
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Mattgyver wrote:
V oodoo wrote:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

If that dirty plug is the one that shipped w/ the bike, it's the long reach type used only for 180 and 200 motors. That one looks like an old used car plug. Why wouldn't they ship it w/ a new, correct plug? :x
All the Viet-bikes that I have seen with long plugs in them were helicoiled heads that often air leaked.
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What did your seller say in its advertising about the engine? Did it represent that the engine - or top end - was "new", "rebuilt with all new parts", or something along those lines?
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SubEtherBASS wrote:
Is that JB Weld?
SubEtherBass,
That's just gasket. The colors are deceptive on my camera phone when using the flash. I noticed that in the pic as well, but it's nothing.
Quote:
Do the stamps on the cases match?
I've the 2-3 digit number that show matched cases, look under motor, from memory there is a case bolt next to it
I'll take a look at that after work and get back to you.

Best,
-Slashy
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GoSlash27 wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Is that JB Weld?
SubEtherBass,
That's just gasket. The colors are deceptive on my camera phone when using the flash. I noticed that in the pic as well, but it's nothing.
Quote:
Do the stamps on the cases match?
I've the 2-3 digit number that show matched cases, look under motor, from memory there is a case bolt next to it
I'll take a look at that after work and get back to you.

Best,
-Slashy
Not the gasket, that's fine. The fly side boost port looks cast in, the clutch side looks cut. That would suggest case halves that are not matched, but could just be the photo.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
What did your seller say in its advertising about the engine? Did it represent that the engine - or top end - was "new", "rebuilt with all new parts", or something along those lines?
SoCalGuy,
Based on their advertising, I would've expected a new cylinder head. I don't want to quote any specifics, as that would identify the source.
From personal correspondence prior to the purchase, I got this:
Quote:
All of the components to do the engine builds are imported. We source the best components
from around the world. For instance we import the bearings from SKF Swtizerland who actually make better bearings than the Italians. The cylinders kits are imported from Italy
and the carburetors, transmissions and CDI units are imported from Germany. The only thing that is kept original is the engine casing as to retain the original matching engine numbers.
(so basically a brand new engine with the original casing) We are in complete control of
everything including the engine builds, nothing is outsourced.
This would lead me to expect a new head, but doesn't explicitly state it.
From correspondence after the purchase, I got this:
Quote:
With regards to the cylinder kits, they are 5 port LML kits which come with new rings,
con rod, piston and cylinder. For the cylinder head itself we use the original ones as they
are still much better quality than the after market ones and are better machined.
Which I would personally not agree with

Off to take some pics...

Best,
-Slashy
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Typical 3rd world restoration and bodge false advertising.
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SubEtherBASS wrote:
Do the stamps on the cases match?
I've the 2-3 digit number that show matched cases, look under motor, from memory there is a case bolt next to it
I can't seem to find them on either motor, the vietbodge or the sock monkey. Could you rustle up a pic to help me track them down?

Thanks,
-Slashy
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they are on the machined face where the spigot of the barrel slips into case. Each side has a stamped number like 47 on left and 47 on right
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you can see on the Malossi cases numbers hand scribed. On Piaggio cases they are punched numbers. You want the numbers to match. If not you run into issues with things like the crank not running true etc. Which can cause issues from not running right to self destructing.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Oh, I see.
So I'd have to pull the jug again.
In that case, I think I'll save that for the next time I go spelunking. Sorry, SubEtherBASS!
Don't worry, I'll be revisiting this.

-Slashy
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Even if it had matching numbers it would still be a hybrid set of cases. The weep holes are a dead giveaway. P,PX,LML had no weep holes, VNB,VBB, Sprint did.
[/img]
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Mattgyver wrote:
Even if it had matching numbers it would still be a hybrid set of cases. The weep holes are a dead giveaway. P,PX,LML had no weep holes, VNB,VBB, Sprint did.
Uh oh.....
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Quote:
Even if it had matching numbers it would still be a hybrid set of cases. The weep holes are a dead giveaway. P,PX,LML had no weep holes, VNB,VBB, Sprint did.
Good stuff! I'll see what they have to say about this and my franken-head.

Best,
-Slashy
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GoSlash27 wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Do the stamps on the cases match?
I've the 2-3 digit number that show matched cases, look under motor, from memory there is a case bolt next to it
I can't seem to find them on either motor, the vietbodge or the sock monkey. Could you rustle up a pic to help me track them down?

Thanks,
-Slashy
you might also check under the motor on the back. maybe they re-stamped it to make it look like they matched on the outside.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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An update on the "customer service" front.
I informed the shop about what I had found.
Quote:
My bike has run fine through break- in and continues to run, *but*... after taking a look at the innards, I don't know how long that will last.
#1, the cylinder head is scarred from a previous shattered piston and has had a spark plug hole welded into it. This isn't any big deal, as a proper cylinder head is inexpensive but still... This is not what I had been led to expect.
#2 (and this is the big problem so far): This is not a matched set of cases. As a Vespa guy, I'm sure you're aware that vespa engines should *never, ever* be built with mismatched case halves. Although I'm fine with this "numbers matching" bike not actually being "numbers matching", an engine that's built in mismatched halves is pretty much useless.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it appears you have a bodger in your shop. How do you recommend we proceed?
This was sent without pics. Here's the response:
Quote:
Thanks for your email. As you know nearly every mechanic you take the bike to
in the US will be Anti Asian and will say anything to discourage you from the bike.
I am personally involved with the building of every bike and i can tell you that the information you have been told is categorically not correct.
If any of those accusations were true, the bike simply wouldn't run. How could a different
engine half from another model even fit ? To even imply this is armature scare mongering
by whoever looked at it.

Every build we do is the same.Your bike was fitted with a brand new LML cylinder kit
and an original cylinder head as mentioned previously. Once you have completed 10,000
kilometers without a problem i think you'll realize you've got a great bike.
Cylinder heads are cheap, if you aesthetically don't like the look of your well functioning current one there are many online shops to buy them from.
The cylinder heads are purposely machined out a little to fit the compression of the 5 ports.
This was an amateur diagnoses I'm sorry to say. Nobody can misdiagnose against our
expertise as we've done hundreds of restorations to the same standard. We have reached the No 1 position in the world by building great bikes.(not bad bikes)
Why, that low-down, no good, dirty mechanic!! How *dare* he mislead me in this manner! Why, I have a half a mind to... oh, wait. *I'm* the mechanic!

So I sent them this response including pics I posted above:
Quote:
Sorry, but I was not told this by a mechanic. I found it myself when I tore down the jug for inspection.
The combustion chamber is self- explanatory. The case halves... notice that one half has the weep hole typical of a VBB motor, but the other half does not, indicating that it is a P, PX, or LML. As you are no doubt aware, Vespa motors can still run just fine with mismatched case halves. They just tend to wear out prematurely and fail due to misalignment.
Hate to say it, but it appears that somebody has slipped one by you.
No response to that yet, and I'll post whatever they say here.

Again, no worries on my end. I went into this knowing full well that something like this was likely and I have the means to build a proper motor if that's what it comes down to. I'm just curious to see how they react to this.

Best,
-Slashy
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That they assumed you had taken it to a mechanic sort of makes you wonder if they
just expect that no one with any mechanical ability would buy one of their machines.
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vesperia wrote:
you might also check under the motor on the back. maybe they re-stamped it to make it look like they matched on the outside.
vesperia,
Looks like they ground off whatever numbers were there. If we're all in agreement that VBB motors should have 2 weep holes, then it doesn't matter what numbers are stamped on the outside.
Still... something for folks to file away (no pun intended) when scoping out a potential viet- bodge.

Best,
-Slashy
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vesperia wrote:
GoSlash27 wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Do the stamps on the cases match?
I've the 2-3 digit number that show matched cases, look under motor, from memory there is a case bolt next to it
I can't seem to find them on either motor, the vietbodge or the sock monkey. Could you rustle up a pic to help me track them down?

Thanks,
-Slashy
you might also check under the motor on the back. maybe they re-stamped it to make it look like they matched on the outside.
Dem da ones I was talkin bout
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So, if the fly side is P/LML and the clutch side is vbb/vbc (and that is what it looks like)

what crank do you put in that?
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I love the statement that every mechanic in the US is anti Asian. You guys should build a wall to keep out the best bodges
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Blank wrote:
I love the statement that every mechanic in the US is anti Asian.
He's probably spot on about that, and that bias has reasonably good justification.

What the poor seller doesn't realize is that Slashy is probably the only knowledgeable buyer that has been willing to take an "innocent until proven guilty" approach, rather than the more universal "it's going to be a POS death trap, no matter what" approach.

Trying to BS his way out of the case issue is foolish. Wonder how long the seller will remain responsive to Slashy's emails?
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Aviator47 wrote:
Trying to BS his way out of the case issue is foolish. Wonder how long the seller will remain responsive to Slashy's emails?
I'm really surprised that Slashy got such a detailed response at all. It's good information for everyone to see exactly who and what you're dealing with when you get a bodge.
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Blank wrote:
It's good information for everyone to see exactly who and what you're dealing with when you get a bodge.
Rules of the Forum preclude identifying the vendor. However, since very, very few here would consider buying a bodge, and, since the Forum members are clearly anti-Asian resto, I doubt that an exact identity is really required to steer a new viewer away from Asian restos.

That said, we still have a long way to go to see exactly how much bodging these two scooters have suffered. Obviously, mis-matched case halves is a serious threat to engine life, as well as vendor credibility.

Personally, my thanks to Slashy and his buddy for the time and expense they are investing to give us their first hand, detailed account of their scooters and vendor interactions.
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Yep. This threads a roller coaster ride. good on you slashy. Better than TV!
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
So, if the fly side is P/LML and the clutch side is vbb/vbc (and that is what it looks like)

what crank do you put in that?
^ Good question. I'd guess P/LML, since the crank side is pretty universal. It'd depend on what kind of fly side half I have.
I'll learn more about this as I dig into the motor this winter (with help from you folks).

Best,
-Slashy
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I am a mechanic and I have seen more that 50 Viet-bikes here and that's why I have such hatred for those restored bikes. I don't hate because of rumors or photos on the internet, I hate the bikes because I have seen the bikes first hand and have seen all the stuff that they do. That's why when I saw the long plug I said the head would probably have a helicoil and when I saw the cases I new it was a hybrid. I have a NO viet-bike policy now because I have seen enough. I have also had to deal with enough people who owned them telling me I'm stupid and don't know shit about Vespas and that has lead to the NO-policy I and most mechanics have when it comes to working on them. I'm happy there is such a big scooter culture in Asia and that they will do anything to keep those bikes on the road. It's just a few 100-1000 people out of the who-knows-how-many scooterists that are there, that are claiming restored and selling it to the rest of the world. I also am very interested in reading their customer service responses.
UTC

Member
1968 Super 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 39
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
 
Member
1968 Super 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 39
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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This has been a surprisingly informative post with useful tech info. It's definitely been entertaining! I had a lot of the same issues, including the switch and the head. My de-bodging experience was(is) an enlightening one...I had to get into every part of the scooter, giving me an interesting education on the how's and why's. At the moment, the ends of the floor strips are rattling off their incorrect pop rivets, one by one...and fuel leaks out the gas cap. The cap is a screw-on type and has cool Vietnamese writing embossed on it, so I'm apprehensive about ditching it.
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Posts: 7141
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7141
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Slashy:

I second Aviator's and Mattgyver's comments. I'm also looking forward to hearing how the seller responds to your last email. I'm not holding my breath though. Given that the numbers have been ground off the cases and the halves are from different models, it already appears the seller was being less than truthful in telling you that original casings were used "to retain the matched numbers." I predict you won't be getting a coherent explanation from the seller anytime soon.
OP
@goslash27 avatar
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Addicted
Viet-bodge
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Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
 
Addicted
@goslash27 avatar
Viet-bodge
Joined: UTC
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We both just got our motorcycle endorsements on my bodge. Heading out for a celebratory cruise. I might even make it back....

Best,
-Slashy
UTC

Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e, Motovespa do Brasil PX200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1215
Location: United States
 
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e, Motovespa do Brasil PX200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1215
Location: United States
UTC quote
Mattgyver wrote:
Even if it had matching numbers it would still be a hybrid set of cases. The weep holes are a dead giveaway. P,PX,LML had no weep holes, VNB,VBB, Sprint did.
[/img]
western porting vs vietnam porting
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
UTC

Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e, Motovespa do Brasil PX200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1215
Location: United States
 
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e, Motovespa do Brasil PX200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1215
Location: United States
UTC quote
GoSlash27 wrote:
We both just got our motorcycle endorsements on my bodge. Heading out for a celebratory cruise. I might even make it back....

Best,
-Slashy
You should go get some Pho and Vietnamese beer to celebrate !
UTC

Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e, Motovespa do Brasil PX200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1215
Location: United States
 
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e, Motovespa do Brasil PX200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1215
Location: United States
UTC quote
Mattgyver wrote:
I am a mechanic and I have seen more that 50 Viet-bikes here and that's why I have such hatred for those restored bikes. I don't hate because of rumors or photos on the internet, I hate the bikes because I have seen the bikes first hand and have seen all the stuff that they do. That's why when I saw the long plug I said the head would probably have a helicoil and when I saw the cases I new it was a hybrid. I have a NO viet-bike policy now because I have seen enough. I have also had to deal with enough people who owned them telling me I'm stupid and don't know shit about Vespas and that has lead to the NO-policy I and most mechanics have when it comes to working on them. I'm happy there is such a big scooter culture in Asia and that they will do anything to keep those bikes on the road. It's just a few 100-1000 people out of the who-knows-how-many scooterists that are there, that are claiming restored and selling it to the rest of the world. I also am very interested in reading their customer service responses.
I wouldn't generalize "Asian". Ive seen good restos and work from guys in Thailand and Malaysia. Seems like they have the passion and care vs. Viet jobs. The biggest issue in Vietnam is that they had to make do for so long without access to proper parts etc. They used local caveman craftsman$hit and ingenuity. They then saw a market outside for their take on taking a a few roached out beasts of burden and selling to unsuspecting people in the west as golden bricks.
OP
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Addicted
Viet-bodge
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Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
 
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Viet-bodge
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Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
UTC quote
Interesting!
I wasn't expecting a response at all (or at least nothing helpful). Instead, I got this:
Quote:
Thanks for sending through the pictures. Your absolutely right about the cylinder head,
our mechanic shouldn't have used a scored one like that.
If you like we can send you another cylinder head.

With regards to the engine halves after a discussion with our chief mechanic
today he advised that on some of the engines, upon restoring them if one side
of the engine half is too worn a new identical replacement half is used.Using a
new Px bearing set fits perfectly with this left hand cover (on the clutch housing side) We have testing equipment
to check if the engines are perfectly balanced or not. An engine is not very forgiving, if something is just slightly out then there will be an unmistakable big vibration which the machine
will pick up. Your engine is well balanced and will run reliably and smoothly for a long time.
We have a machine shop,
paint shop and body shop ( 3 different shops to complete our bikes) The machine shop
provides a warrantly for each engine with every engine number being cataloged.
If something should go wrong then they will provide a whole new complete engine.
You don't have to worry about your engine.

Warning : if you open the engine up you will make the warranty null and void (taking matters into your own hands) Taking
the whole cylinder off is bad enough.You'll have to bolt it back on and now the tolerances
will not be exactly the same as when it was installed which can create a potential problem. Once a brand new cylinder is bolted on it shouldn't be taken off and then bolted back on again.Its usually thrown away once taken off.We usually would replace it when taking one off. Note that if a small stone or twig or something goes into the engine with it exposed like that it would also ruin the engine. (with the rod sticking out as seen in your picture)

Please advise address to send your new cylinder head.
So they'll send me a new head (which I don't need) and if this engine fails, they'll send me another (presumably bodged) replacement engine.
Not great, but not terrible either... perhaps a c- minus. Maybe D- plus...

I'm not going to hold them to it, since I'm going to get up to my elbows in this motor; see what I can see. If my buddy's motor craps out, we'll see if they make good on the engine warranty.

*edit* Oh, and the bike survived it's celebration jaunt just fine.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
610km on the odometer, so "catastrophic failure at 569" is an "over".

Best,
-Slashy
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