Modern Vespa

My P200 rear tire is worn in the center, and it's starting to make the whole scooter act squirrely when I'm out riding, So, time for new tires. From what I have read, it's not too hard to mount new tires on a split rim.

I'm probably going to get them from Scooter Mercato, but wanted to know what you guys think, S83 vs S1 Michelin. I'm currently running a mismatched set, Michelin S83 and a Continental knobby type of tire. I'll be replacing both the front and rear (actually, my front will become the spare, since it's the best of the 3 I have now).

The S1 seems to be a modern style tire



The S83 seems to be a knobby classic style tire



I'm not a super fast rider, and I usually won't go out if there's rain in the forecast. I don't go on the highway..... I'm going to be running it with the stock wheels and new tubes.

So which way should I go????

I used to run the S83s on both 8" and 10" wheels and wasn't that impressed with them in either size. I've been using Kenda 329s for some time now and am happy with them, but of the two you mentioned I'd try the S1s. The most difficult part of the split rim tire change is getting the old tire off the rim if it's been on there a while. Take care not to pinch the tube when your reassemble.

honestly, i've found that the cheapest and easiest way to go is to buy a set of the SIP Performers pre-mounted on new tires and rims. I sell a ton of them.

http://www.hodgespeed.com/30300000/dp/22096

i mean- new tires, tubes, and rims, ready to swap on for under $60?

... and the winner is... Rob Hodge. I saw packages for other tires, but nobody can touch this price....

Plus, I don't have to struggle to get the tires mounted or anything.

One last question - should I reuse my nuts, or get new ones?

Http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Specials/2x2x2MICHS1

another option..

To answer your question, you should renew the rim nuts and split washers periodically anyways. In fact, I thought I'd read once that it was best to replace them every time you remove them, but that seems a bit excessive. I put on new nuts and new split washers whenever I rotate the wheels or once a year, whichever comes first. If they get loose or come off and you don't notice, you could lose your life. It's a safety precaution for a perniciously vulnerable component of these bikes.

Your rear flattens because weight is biased on rear of course. Too much straight riding and you should rotate tires regularly. Vespa tires are super easy to mount. That's why they where designed on split rims and single sided axles. If you can't service Vespa rims and tires yourself you probably shouldn't be riding a vintage Vespa. Renew your rims nuts and washers every other time. I use nylocs- cheap, look good and added safety.

A few notes when mounting new tires are that all new tires are made for tubeless rims so the fit in rim tighter. So a little soap and water helps ease on. And of course dont pinch inner tube when bolting halves together. I fill tubes with a little air first.

If your choice is between S83 and S1. Save the S83 for the wheel barrow.S1 was superb when the came out in mid 90s. They superceeded the popular and excellent IRC MBR77. But whenever they moved production to Thailand the quality of compound went down. There are far better tires now. I've never tried the SIP tires but believe they are a good value.

^^^ Nyloc rim nuts

There are threads discussing using these. Some have reported concerns or issues because nylocs usually have the nylon grip at the top of the nut and if the stud isn't quite long enough it won't grip well. The split washer, though far more brutal mechanically, locks at the bottom and wouldn't have this issue. Nylocs are also supposed to be replaced just as often because they too, lose their grip over time. This is recommended for ANY fastener that grips by tension.

In short, use nylocs at your discretion, or just have plenty of nuts and split washers around, which are less expensive. I buy them several dozen at a time.

To me, this part of these bikes are like spark plugs... have plenty of spares on hand.

I've used nyloc with split washer for 30 plus years and millions of miles. Never an issue. The FAA allows them tobe reused - theyve been good for my applications. I usually keep a nice stock of them in my fastener chest. The only nylocs I don't uses on rims are acorn nylocs for Lambretta rims

Last edited by almogavar1969 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:24 am; edited 2 times in total

S1 and rims with nylocs - nuff said[/img]

I'm not saying they're a bad idea. I'm just saying that there have been threads here and elsewhere discussing them over the concerns I listed.
I once looked at using them myself wasn't comfortable with the chamfered edge of the stud barely clearing the nut. Maybe you found lower profile nuts, or have longer studs.

I used to source mine from Orchard supply. Lowes carries them in the Metric section and if I want colored or titanium I will get from Pro-bolt. The stud usually remains flush with the top of nut allowing the nylon filament to lock the threads. Ive never had one come loose.

Do you use washers? I do and have found their thickness to be inconsistent, which may influence the outcome.

I will say that because Nylocs don't use split washers, they do have the advantage of not nicking up the rim a little.

Regardless, unless you're claiming I'm offering bad information, the point here isn't to go back and forth about this. The OP asked a question about replacing the nuts which no one had responded to yet, and I think the two of us have given him loads of useful information on the subject.

I use washers. I replace my rim fasteners every other time. They are a consumable like spark plugs or cables.

I use new lock washers. Haven't used nylocks because I'm not sure what grade of steel they are. I avoid the stainless found in hardware stores for any stress critical purpose - many stainless grades will gall somewhat easily.

I'll probably get boos for this, but I also use anti-seize. In fact, when I first bought the Stella 6 years ago, I removed every nut I could find, applied anti-seize, and retightened them with new lock washers. Never had one back off in 45 years of bikes & scoots ..... and never had a nut or spark plug get seized on either.

For brake, suspension, exhaust, etc bolts & nuts that require safety wires, I still use anti-seize - and use safety wire *washers* where drilling isn't convenient. They work great with oil plugs too, and I don't worry about overtightening / stripping oil plug threads.

http://pitposse.com/sawiwa.html

I'm not recommending anything, just some alternative personal preferences to add to the discussion.

S1's are the worst.. they're hard and on any kind of wet road they're horrible..

just my 2c.. but they are the worst! if those are your 2 choices.. I'd take the S83 even though they look a bit "classic" for my taste... I'd still pick 'em over the S1 any day..

yeah - I had not owned S1s for years. Got 2 sets super cheap. They must have changed compound which sucks. Next set will be Heidenau or would like to try new Avons or Dunlop

I personally just bought 3 Kenda k329 tires with tubes for $90 shipped. We will see how they handle. I have Zippys on my Stella and they have been fine.

I first had S83s and thought their grip sucked and they wore out faster than a pair of cheap jeans.

Next I got Heidenau K38s and they wear much better and have better all-weather grip as well, in fact I'm on my second set now, but cost a proverbial arm-and-leg for a set of three, probably because they're made in Germany.

Downside... the vintage style block tread, like the S83, tracks like a squirrel on bridge gratings or lengthwise grooved pavements and requires the usual corrective tactic... let the arm muscles flex a little while hanging on tight to the grips.

I won't accept tires with a manufacture date older than 1 year because the rubber does harden over time, and I'm not sure if I want to try "street" type tires like the K47 or K48, or another maker entirely. Aside from the occasional tracking issue on challenging surfaces, I'm getting excellent wear and service out of the K38s.

I've heard good things about Kendas and Sava, but haven't tried those yet. I'm at 18K miles of a lot of long distance riding, the S83s lasted about 3K of those, the K38s about 8, and I'm currently on my second set of K38s.

Edit: Another reason I've liked the K38s is because they have a load rating of 59, which is higher than a lot of scooter tires the same size. I wish their J speed rating was little higher, but the truth is I'm rarely if ever going to hit 62mph on a stock 150 anyways, so it should be fine. They also come in a TL type with the reinforced sidewall, which is another plus.

Last edited by pdxjim on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:25 pm; edited 2 times in total

I'm going to try a set of the Avons soon
http://www.avonmoto.com/products/high-perf-scooter/viper-stryke?sku=2360011&num=90000025124&size=3.50-10&item=Viper-Stryke

You can't go wrong w/ some Heidenaus... I've gota pair of Dunlop TT3 (?) on my skelly and they're awesome.. super sticky, BUT I don't expect them to last very long..

I'm really liking the Continental Twist tires I put on my 50special.. Very much.
I used to be opposed to their "space-age" "jetson's" tread pattern, but I'm past that... they're nice tires.. but again, Heidenau makes a really good tire.. any of their models are quality.

No sure about jetsons as none of their vehicles even had tires. But I like modern tires. If you pickup an old scoot with evil death ride square wheelbarrow tires. Get home and put new modern tires on it's makes a huge transformation. I've done this from my very first scoot on. The dublops I'd like to try are scootsmarts. Not sure if we can get here.

I love modern tires.. I've never had a pair of S83's or anything similar..

I've always run S1 (back in the day) and Schwalbe and Heidenau tires.. this is my 1st pair of Conti-twist (and they do have a "jetson's / space-age" pattern that threw me off for a while, but they're good tires, and on the right bike can look good.. otherwise.. my favorite tires are Schwalbe Racemen.. but I got tired of reading stories of delaminating, and it's kind of a scary thought when you're going fast..

Digging the Conti's.. I'll buy another pair.


edit: sorry back to your original question again.. S83 over S1's any day... but there are many other options out there.. better than both S1's and S83's...

Ahhh! Conti twist tread is same as their Road Attack motorcycle tire tread. There are no twist suppliers here so have never tried.

And back to original subject as mentioned. Better tires available than either Michelin. Replace nuts and split washers regularly and you'll be fine !!!

love 'em so far.. Mark Ito @ Scooter-Speed.com can get 'em quick

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tyre+continental+twist+_30406100

OP here.... sorry, I was out at the movies today, and cooking dinner in preparation for the entertainment packaged as a debate tonight....

Anyway, I ordered a set of the SIP tires/rims from Rob Hodge. By the time I paid for tires, tubes, and shipping, the rims were practically free.

I'll be sticking with what got the scoot this far, nuts and lock washers. I'll order some new nuts in a day or two. Any recommendations for where to order? Scooter Mercato is fine? What's the size?

Since the tires won't be here for a week or two, I'll have to do some chores around the house.... and work some too!

Sorry about starting a heated debate about modern/old school tires, and the heated exchange of nylock/split washers. But I learned something....

Hi Larry,

Can you post pics of the sip tires when you get them on the bike? I considered getting those with my last tire change (ended up going with the conti's which I really enjoy). Also like the idea of avoiding having to remove the rim from the $&@" tire. Nothing more aggravating.

V.

Happy Thanksgiving, Velsaquez! (My daughter goes to school in Sherbrooke, QC, so I know about your holiday).

Sure, I'll post pics when the tires arrive. Looking forward to it.

Happy thanks giving to you too!

Dunlop scootsmart replaced today the S83 after 16.000 km.

By the time I left the shop, rain started! very good performance in wet conditions - satisfied with the choice!

Btw, I wear the same tyres in my GTS (replaced Citygrip) offering 1 year now excellent stability and increase cornering confidence.

The pricing of Dunlop is v. good: 90 EUR (GTS) and 60 EUR (PX)

As said previously the S1 was good when made in Europe, when shifted to Asia it gained a horrible waxy compound. S83 I've never been a fan of, I can run out of grip easily on a standard 50, a horribley strangled UK 50 from the mid 80's or earlier at that.

Never had a bad Dunlop tyre in any guise, not many complaints about Sava either. They got bad press with their whitewalls years ago but I've never used those. Schwalbe I will not use under any circumstance, it's the German for Swallow and nobody would use Swallow other than extreme emergency back in the 80's. They may be better now but I'm not taking a chance, that and the fact there's been Horror stories of delaminating.

Yokohamas were excellent but I've seen them nowhere for sale for best part of a decade.

Conti's are good tyres as are Heind's, Pirelli have made nothing other than utter shite for decades.

Hello

S1 are marginal in the wet and whiteline in the dry.

Grumpy

Like I said, I ordered the SIP modern style tires from Rob Hodge.

Bummer that the Michelin tires are not seen in a more favorable light, as I've been a fan of their auto tires for years now. More expensive, yes, but I've had great luck with them (longevity and puncture resistance). I don't drive anything that would be mistaken for a performance car, so I won't speak for ultra high performance characteristics.

For the sake f having said so, I'd rather have the s83's on my rally than the savas it has now. They actually get greasy feeling as they get hot, I have managed to slice the tread surface on the front tire pushing through corners, and I expect to not make it to 2000 miles on the set.

The Kenda 329s I have on my kitted p have been great as far as grip both wet and dry. Not sure on how their lifespan will rate though......

The Schwable Weathermans I have on now are a gazillion times better than the S83s I had on previously. Give me so much more confidence, especially in the wet. The only time I've ever changed wheel nuts was when I got new rims. Check they're tight now and again and all good.

I still rock S1s. They do me fine.

I had a brand new weatherman delaminate on me last year. Stock px200 open road riding. I was lucky enough to notice it when looking at sommit else before it killed me. The tyre bulges and then strikes the swingarm, ripping it open. I could see the tube! And yes i used the exaggerated schwabe recommended tyre pressures. Didn't feel good riding with extra inflation either. Those new tyres lasted only 2 weeks. Was a relief to put some SL pirrellis on. Dependable all round tyre those.

IMHO Schwalbe Weathermans should be recalled.

Currently running Michelin city grip winters (has been winter here) and they seem fine.

I've heard all the stories but so far so good for mine. Running them tubeless for about a year now.

I like the S83 for one main reason on many of my bikes: They are NOT directional.

That lets me move the front to the rear and put a fresh tire on the front, keeping all the rubber fresh.

Edit: I run nylocs with wave washers on the rims, have for 30 years with no issues.