Modern Vespa

Dear all London vespa owners,

Please see the BBC article below.

Be vigilant and safe and lock your bikes up/away as best as you can.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38294358

Safe riding

I'm assuming that the kid they eulogized in that article was riding a stolen scooter. Why would you need to chase a person if it was THEIR scooter. That said i don't understand why they are making a big deal out of his death and bringing charges on the police. If you die when you steal something i wouldn't feel sorry for you. May sound crass but i hate people who steal. Others have worked very hard to get the very thing you just stole. The police are put in a no win situation. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. I don't agree with police chases but sometimes you have to.

Judy, I am with you. If you commit a crime, the consequences of that crime are potentially dangerous if you decide to avoid capture. If you make bad choices in life, there are always ramifications. Those ramifications shouldn't be fatal but once you decide to run, all bets are off. Nobody wants to see some child (yes teens are children) die but if he or she makes a bad choice, that's the possible result.

PAD agree. It's a wonder than any of us make it to adults with some of the stuff we did (not crimes). We had a back pasture that some friends (the guy my dad bought our farm from) used to let their massive BULL graze in. My dad warned me not to go into that pasture. Bull was huge and very dangerous. So my friend and i had gone duck hunting and decided to cut thru the pasture with the bull in it. We looked, didn't see the bull and got about 20ft and THEN we saw the bull. Luckily there was an opening under the gate and we hauled ass under it and the bull went crashing into it. We didn't look back until we were home. The thought crossed our minds,after we had calmed down, that we could of shot the damn thing. However i'd still be paying off the cost of the bull and grounded. Never told my parents what we did either.

I read the articles and was astounded by the fact the Police were being targeted more so than the criminals. The one chap had 71 incidents with the Police and at the time of death was in control of cannabis and multiple cell phones, obviously stolen.
Not only a thief but a drug dealer or courier. How much harm had this low life caused with the drugs and fear with the theft of cell phones, probably taken by force or intimidation?

Was he really a loss to society?

I think not and agree with Judy 100%.

Judy, there isn't enough space on this forum for me to write all the dumb crap I did when I was a youth. I am sorry to say I did break the law (nothing serious) a few times. Just like you, I was lucky and did learn from these mistakes and I am better for it. The teen brain doesn't always do the math.

PAD i know. If i lived in the UK and was a lawyer i'd represent those police people (don't know if their all men) pro bono. Yikes 71 counts and multiple cell phones.

glad it's all under control though

Yeah. Was going to say just that. We can rest easy now.

Just remember to lock your scooter.

To hell with the cell phones. The real crime is a stolen and downed scooter.

exactly! I wonder what things what have to look like for them to say...'right guys, I think it's a little out of control now'... possibly when London resembles Mad Max!

My thoughts exactly. I love how the article totally fails to mention the victims of scooter theft - nip that in the bud and they'd have their problem solved.

This bothers me.
"Police have also urged moped owners to use more locks to protect their vehicles."
Expecting the general public to change their behaviour instead of finding and stopping the ones causing the problem.

We have the same situation here in Berlin. Pick-pocketing has gone up significantly in the past 4 or 5 years. The police have a good idea what group is doing it, and in which areas they like to work. Yet, instead of spending their time focusing on that petty theft ring to the point of getting them to stop or slow down, they are now in the middle of a campaign using police officers to teach the citizens of Berlin the typical tricks that these pick-pockets use. Will it help the tourists? No. So the ring will simply focus more intensely on the tourists in the future and Berlin could end up with the pick-pocket reputation which clouds Barcelona, for example.

In my eyes, the stolen scooter problem is even easier for police to push back against. Everywhere I've lived, it is possible for police to set up a road block and ask drivers for their license, registration and proof of insurance. If done correctly, then there is little/no chance for them to run.

I have had this type of paper control happen to me twice within 10 years here in Berlin, and as far as I know, we have only a minor problem with scooter theft.

? Have any of you London riders been stopped by the police, looking for papers ?

I've ridden from Bromley and Sidcup into the city for many years and the only time I was stopped was to give me a flier promoting rider safety. I like your idea but its a fine line between improving security and police state.

as a youth, I don't think a week went by when I wasn't pulled over to check this that & the other, I wouldn't want to go back to that, however I needn't worry, there's no bobbies on the beat nowadays

Exact same for me, where were they handing out the fliers, was it Blackheath Hill?

I've done about 10000 miles per year for the past nine years commuting on a Vespa GTS 250 all in central London and haven't been stopped once.

I was pulled over once by a policeman who asked to see my papers. When I asked why, he explained that there had been a number of drive by thefts in the area by youths on mopeds. I asked him if he really thought that I (middle-aged female university professor) looked like I fit that demographic, even with my helmet on. He admitted sheepishly that I didn't.

they did this with cars in Hackney a few years ago. Something like 40% of the cars they stopped were being driven without proper license, registration, or insurance - in many cases all three

Yes I was pulled over at Waterloo Bridge. Quite aggressive officer. Until I took my helmet off, looked at him squarely in the eye, and asked him why he had stopped me.

Theft, apparently. It seemed pretty unlikely around the Aldwych. And then they left after I supplied all my papers and said I had to get to court.

Since it tends to be young men stealing the scooters with impunity, it might not be such a bad thing to do again, eh?

The "good old days" in the USA when the police would pull over large groups of motorcyclists to check for stolen bikes. Thank goodness the mid 1960s have largely been left behind.

C that's when the Hell'S Angels were at their worst. A friend decided he wanted to be a US Marshall when he grew up. One of his first gigs was to safe guard one of the HA gang that was ratting on the rest. Very scary times for him.

When I was young it was cars they concentrated on I used to collect at least three horty's a week and my car was 100% legit every time.

For the uninitiated.
( Horty = Hort 1 Police documentation request ) at your local Police station.

And there's another difference between the US and the UK that folks each side might not be aware of.

In the US (CA at least), you need to carry your driver's license, vehicle registration and proof of insurance either on your person or in your vehicle at all times.

In the UK this is not a requirement - but if asked you have to present said documents at a nominated police station within a certain time (a matter of days). Of course, via various databases, these days the police can also get all the relevant details at the scene - however, with no requirement for personal ID in the UK, they still need to see the documents to be sure of identity.

When there is no punishment for crimes there is no deterrent. Time and time again people are hurt or killed by someone who should not have been free. More and more "hollow" laws passed, and institionalized anti-police sentiment are not going to fix any of these problems. Make some noise!

If I was stopped once a week or once a month for example, I wouldn't mind at all! It might just make the thieves think twice about riding around on a stolen machine.

And there you have it - in those two posts.

"I want the police to stop and check people. Except me."

Who peed in your tea this morning? - if I really objected to being stopped I could have complained, not produced my documents, or been a right arse.

I asked why, which is fair, produced my documents, which was requested, and asked if I could leave because I needed to go to my job.

I am allowed to have a few thoughts that getting a tug on the middle of legal London isn't the most likely place to be riding a stolen scooter.

Unfortunately, no area is safe. In fact, these areas have a higher percentage of people with posh bikes to steal and high end phones to pinch on a drive by for example. I'll try and dig out a link for a video on Youtube of a drive-by phone pinch almost directly outside the houses of parliament! being under comprehensive CCTV coverage not to mention the density of police there seems too bold to be sensible, but it happens.

I don't mean to paint a bleak picture here but just putting out some perspective.

Yeah right. Typical entitled attitude. Why exactly would you want to make a complaint? The gruff policemans nasty attitude? Boo hoo.
And why not produce your documents? Why shouldn't you when everyone else has to?
And why would you even consider being an arse? Just let them stop check you, like they're entitled and obliged to. Whether you like it or not.

"Took my helmet off and looked him square in the eye" = that put the grubby oik back in his box. Much more effective than just doing what they asked and keeping my mouth shut.

"Said I had to get to Court" = he might think I'm a barrister now. I could have just said goodbye but that wouldn't have had the same effect.

Well, I'm not a barrister. But I did need to go to Court. They did check me, so what's your issue? I'm happy to let them do it. I'm also allowed to have an opinion about how they conduct themselves. The officer was aggressive. And then when I took my helmet off and revealed I was a woman, he was very polite. I thought that was revealing about his conduct.

I don't know if you've had a bad time of serving, but that's nothing to do with me.

Everyone has something in there life that puts them in a bad mood. Police and le bouch included. Why don't you (le bouch) tell Wonder Machine what she can say to get you off her back.

because the police would be accused of "institutional ageism" and "gender profiling"

Yes you can't win really. It's either "intelligence led policing", or "discrimination" or "lucky dip". There aren't enough police as you point out and what they are allowed to do is limited, as is the money.

No bad mood here, happily. I just have 25+ years of experience at the sharp end. Seen it and heard it. I'm on no-ones back, I promise

Sadly behaviour breeds behaviour. Being spoken to like you're a piece of dirt, all day every day, being vilified by media and government, tends to make you a little more 'robust' than the next person.

It seems everyone wants police intervention except when it bothers them personally.

Then it's 'Haven't you got anything better to do?' or 'Do I really look like a scooter thief?' and other hilarious tales of how ridiculous the officer was and how cleverly you put him down with your witty reposts.

Maybe next time try thanking the officer for doing the job you keep saying you want him to do. Just a thought.

easy tiger. i think you'll find that neither of us actually voiced any objection to being stopped. i do find it ironic, however, that the people who are most likely to stop are those who are least likely to be committing crimes. i'm pretty sure that the officer who stopped me understood this too.

thanks for your assumption, though. that was helpful

there you go again. you don't know either of us, yet you assume that we spoke to the officer like he was a piece of dirt. why's that?

if you've been paying any attention to the discussions on this forum, I think you'll find that there is pretty robust support for the police amongst the London crew, and a widespread recognition of how difficult their job is. yet the moment you saw an opportunity to assume the opposite, you went for it. that's a pretty sad indictment of your attitude towards the public that you serve.

Please help me. Point me to where I said you spoke to the officer in that way?

I was actually replying in general terms to a different poster. Now who's making assumptions?

I'm pretty sure I'm not contributing to this thread in the way you'd like so will bow out. But what I can say with 100% certainty is that I speak from experience. Your mileage may vary.

here: the thing is, we speak from experience as well. from a different angle, obviously, and our encounters with police are a lot fewer (ideally) than are yours with the public. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones - most of my encounters with the police have been overwhelmingly positive, though it is frustrating to be reminded more often than not that they don't have the time or resources to help me.

I remember years ago, I had a mobile phone nicked out of my hand by a youth on a bike. I was right outside my door, so I went in, rang the police to report the crime and two minutes later a cruiser was at my door. They drove me around the neighbourhood for about half an hour, hoping to get a glimpse of the villain. Sadly, we didn't ... but I often think of that day, and how different things are now - my recent scooter theft got a cursory visit and a sad admission that there was almost no chance that they could take the investigation further.