Modern Vespa

Don't bow out, please.

Your personal and insightful information as regards Policing in your area, has been very informative to me and others on MV, I'm sure.
Other respondents may have misconstrued your input, but I find their responses informative and valued as well.

Perhaps the "hectic season" being upon us has caused some nerve endings to become somewhat "frayed".

Take care all.

I agree. Stick with it, please, it's good to have your input.

I'm happy to contribute. I don't mean any offence to anyone but this is hugely frustrating, as of course it is for all of us who have had scooters stolen. Yes, me too.

I also don't want to push the thread into areas forbidden by the moderators, if that's an issue.

And breathe 😁

Saw a bit of 'front line' policing this morning first hand. A WPC chased down a muscular young man and detained him outside a shop I happened to be inside. A marked car swung in and the guy, shouting and swearing all the while, was handcuffed, searched and bundled into the back.

All this, naturally, blocked the road for a few moments and - I still struggle to believe this next bit - a car in the queue began blowing his horn!

As I left the shop the police car moved off and I thanked the WPC for her efforts in keeping us safe. She replied "That's really lovely of you to say, most people just moan at us.."

I'm a huge believer in personal liberty and at the front of that is the right to move about freely with no need to explain who I am, where I'm going, why I'm going there and provide proof that I own my mode of transportation. If I violate some motor law along the way, than feel free to ask all those questions when you stop me. But "you don't look like you belong here" doesn't fly for me.

There is a quote from Benjamin Franklin that I like a lot. The context is a little different, but the same thought can be applied here: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Be careful what you wish for when you allow the police to stop and question you with no reason. It's a slippery slope and policy changes that you think may have no impact on you today, could have great impact on you tomorrow.

-Craig

Nice words.

But like everything it's about balance.

Whilst it's true that some in law enforcement abuse their powers it is also abundantly true that the kind of 'liberty' you espouse offers no protection for society from its more feral members.

If I see someone that doesn't look right on the doorstep of an elderly resident... damn right I'm going to ask him what he's doing there. As I would expect any decent citizen to do, whether officer or not.

And as for being able to move about with no requirement to prove that you own your vehicle.... are you for real?!

I think you misunderstand about my comment regarding not having to prove I own my vehicle. What I mean is that I should not be subject to a random stop or be stopped because I "look like I don't belong" so the police can ascertain if I am the legal owner of a vehicle.

If the vehicle with my license plate has been reported stolen, of course they should stop me and ask for proof of ownership. Or if I'm speeding or don't stop properly at a light, etc., they have every right to stop me and ask me to show legal ownership. In fact, here in the USA we are required to carry license, vehicle registration and insurance information with us at all time.


-Craig

^^ this.

random bag searches at airports are a great example. What's more important - my freedom to not have my underpants etc. examined by a total stranger, or the protection of innocent people from someone who decides to put a bomb in their bag? I'm quite happy to surrender my 'liberty' for the collective good.

Given the enormous problems with scooter crime in London at the moment - the victims of the initial thefts as well as the victims of the knock-on crimes - insisting on my own right to move freely at the expense of the police's ability to try and stop offenders would be selfish, to say the least. And given the restrictions on pursuing criminals when they're caught in the act, stopping riders at random is one of the few means they have to do this.

Craig - Fair enough - point taken.

Let me offer you the following scenario though..

Your scooter gets stolen overnight. You don't know it's gone.

I see it drive past. Something about the rider just doesn't look right but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe I've seen it before - maybe it was an older guy riding it last time? I can't be sure.
I run a registration check. Not reported lost or stolen.

What would you like me to do?

Not trying to be provocative - genuine question.

I think if you have reasonable suspicion that the rider may be up to no good (in your example, you have seen the scooter before and this is not the normal rider) than you should investigate further. My objection is to being stopped for no reason. Random stops are not a good reason to stop someone on their way to work, shopping, whatever the case may be. The rider doesn't "look right" is not reason to make a stop unless you add that bit of prior knowledge of who usually rides this scooter.

A cornerstone of freedom is the ability to move about without fear of being detained without cause. That might mean that some "bad guys" slip through the net. But it's part of the price of freedom.

Regarding being stopped and searched at the airport. When you fly you have no expectation that you will not be stopped and searched. It is printed on your ticket that you are subject to search in the interest of safety to all passengers. This is a very different situation than me simply trying to commute to work, shopping, the movies, etc.

-Craig

a cornerstone of freedom is being able to move around freely, period. At the moment, that is very difficult to do in London without fear of your ride being tampered with or stolen outright. I'd sooner give up a bit of real-world freedom to secure my own safety than sacrifice it for the sake of an ideal.

I can't agree. You're over-dramatising it. We've not even got on to 'detention' unless you count a few flashing lights and probing questions as such.

If, in the circumstances I gave, you would rather that I didn't stop and investigate 'your' stolen scooter on (maybe) no more than a hunch developed over two decades of experience then I'm not sure what else to say.

I think its legitimate to have anxieties about why people are stopped. Historically there are all sorts of problems in the UK about this - such as the suss laws, stop and search to the current position.

Depending on the climate of the day, people seem to tolerate more or less of it. What's a little unusual these days is to have the complexion of government we do in the UK, not so much money for policing and an economy that isn't doing that well.

The logic of that means you can't really do intelligence led policing (expensive) and have to resort to something a bit more basic (subject to legal challenge at worst). It's not satisfactory to anybody.

.

I completely agree. Nobody wins by over-zealous stop-search policies.

There have been some awful abuses and the riots here to some degree point to that.

Equally, these abuses are rare to the extreme. The media of course magnify everything - but not the millions of everyday, mundane police interactions which are entirely lawful and without incident.

I can say hand on heart that in my service I have NEVER seen anyone stopped because of colour, sex, or any other reason. We don't always get it right, of course.

But the idea that me or my colleagues sit profiling people to stop, or monitoring their internet use, etc etc, is laughable. I'm too busy dealing with people's bullshit Facebook slanging matches, for one thing 😞

The bottom line is that there are some terrible, terrible people out there. The much maligned officer is all that stands between you and them.

"Try" this chase story out.
I worked with a guy in a supermarket in 1960's, he was my age (~21/22) and we ran around together too as we were both into sports cars & racing/rallies,etc.. I luckily wasn't there for this event!
He got real drunk one night and was running seriously fast in his MGB on a busy city street(the main boulevard!) in our hometown of Topeka,KS, maybe was 60-70 mph in a 35 as I recall. The city cops went after him and shot his tires out. They also broke a bunch of large glass Buick/Olds car dealer showroom windows out in the process. He ended up in a small park like pull-off a few blocks further on as was driving on his rims.
He got a lawyer and main result was probated, kept his DL and had to pay for those windows which was more than he made annually as a FT grocery guy and FT college student. No injuries.
After reading the UK article here's my take:
I worked in a prison here in KY in education and was on the Placement Committee that placed inmates into school(my job)work areas, higher levels of security,etc.. I also taught in and was later a superintendent of a juvy treatment program. All to say i really know criminals pretty well.
Not one person here commented on the fact, well emphasized in the article, that the police were not pursuing these moped criminals because they didn't wear helmets!
I found that very interesting, to say the least! I'm gonna run that one by my state cop neighbor at the bottom of my road & get his take on making that difference based on no helmet.
Not to turn this into a helmet thread, I'm an Toreador Pants rider BTW. It is true that some states in USA make an age difference in helmet laws but I haven't researched the subject. I do know here in KY we have a very high accident & death rate among juveniles on ATV's and most counties the LEO's don't pay much attention to no tags, underage, speeding on pavement,etc. juvy drivers of those machines. It's very common to meet a couple of teens going well over 55mph in an ATV in KY.

Back to the UK aspect of no apprehension-
I am curious if the LEO's there would (meaning personally) prefer to chase the moped thieves but public sentiment makes their boss say no?
If they are caught stealing say, an expensive smart phone and were a juvenile making a moped get away when caught, whats the result?

Actually the real difference is that the Airport is private property. Just like a nightclub, you don't want to be searched then don't come in.

In some countries (think Paris, France right now) you WILL get searched going into the movies or shopping malls. Again, private property.

Being searched is also very different to being stopped and spoken to. In the U.K. there are strict policies governing powers of search in public. Section 1 PACE is a good starting point if you want some light reading 😴

Do any K-12 schools in UK or France have searches or metal detectors? Higher ED? -same question.

Not to my knowledge, certainly not in my area of the UK. Maybe others can advise?

The one thing that most Americans forget is that operating a motor vehicle is a privilege, not a right. I don't have the right to expect that my liberty's supersede the greater good while operating a motor vehicle.

I sympathise with your feelings, and know you're far from being anti-libertarian, but my personal experience of living and working and riding and parking every day in central London makes me think that you're overplaying it a bit.

Entirely Feasible Goldilocks Utopian Solution: bar-code license-plate tags.

No need to get into some esoteric debate over personal liberties -- vehicle registration is already universal law. But people get uptight about infringements on their bodies and the personal property implied by what's inside the vehicle or our pockets: so simply make it foolproof easy to scan a vehicle tag and determine instantly whether it's legal.

Done. Doesn't even require a "search".

Close but no cigar!

I like your Idea BUT. What is going to stop the guy that has his license suspended from driving home from the courthouse with said suspended license.
I'm required to provide a valid license, valid registration and proof of insurance. If there were more spot checks being done, I wouldn't have to spend $300 per year, per bike, for uninsured motorist protection

That's already in place in the UK with thousands of ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) cameras all over the place, especially in London. Sadly, it seems they're hardly ever used to apprehend stolen vehicles.

An outsider might even suppose the congestion charge cameras in central London could be brought into play - but they only look at the front number plate. All the speed cameras could also be used - but it seems they're not.

All the LEO's in USA have puters in their cars and number plates get quick analysis already? As for the suspension e.g. , driving home with having been suspended-if they cut you loose yer loose and can choose to rob banks or go fishing, ride yer scoot, whatever...
I've read studies that tell the % of drivers who are under the influence yet LEO's seem to lack the manpower? or public support? to do road stop & checks which always yield a bunch of various arrests or tickets in my area. I've always guessed it was in part at least based on reality that we elect our sheriffs in many places and not popular with the folks?
I'm still asking if the UK LEO's are the ones saying that non-helmet wearing thieves get special consideration or a figment of that journalists' imagination?
Which was it?
I'll just come out and say it-seems down right stupid to me, either way?
Stop them & chase them IMO.
I'm pretty libertarian but sure don't mind the LEO's doing their jobs , even if that means traffic road checks. In KY they send a court notice automatically if you pay for insurance then cancel the policy. Still yet many drive and take on that risk of arrest. Court news here is absolutely full of people stopped for serious stuff that also lacked insurance or other illegalities that come to light.
I have this personal rant/issue that asks what happens to all these cell phone drivers who fail to yield right of way and hurt themselves or others?
I've never seen a soccer mom in the court news for whats a commonly seen driving violation in recent years. The drunk that errors while operating gets big time attention and many laws treat them in a harsh way yet where's the penalty for these others who turn in front of or run red lights?

You are describing an ANPR system that reads number plates and checks the vehicle for tax, insurance, MOT and markers for theft and other crimes.
Works perfectly, right up to the point at which a criminal puts a number plate from a legitimate vehicle on their own.

In the UK, driving is not a universal right without obligation or restrictions. One of the things you accept when you get your licence is that the police have the legal right to stop you and ask to check your documentation, and that power is often used entirely reasonably when something seems amiss.

It is UK police policy to NOT pursue motorcyclists in general UNLESS a serious offence has been committed. And without a helmet it would have to be a serious, aggravated offence (i.e. Armed Robbery).

An inexperienced rider being pursued WILL come off. Most offences are not worth someone losing their life over, especially if there are other 'after the fact' methods of investigating.
Sometimes we know who the riders are personally - much better to give them a 05.00 door-knock at a time of our choosing rather than chase them to their (or more importantly someone else's) death.

I've literally seen mothers with pushchairs hit by stolen motorcycles mounting the pavement when they see a police car, let alone be pursued by one.

It's not a perfect system by any means. There is outrage here if someone (especially an innocent party) dies in a police pursuit, and sometimes rightly so. The officers are hung out to dry by the organisation.

That all makes sense to me. We've all seen pursuits (on the TV news) here in USA that appeared to be more dangerous than the level of the crime itself. And I say that as one who is very supportive of law enforcement! Sadly, many don't do so these days.

maybe a bit

but ... having had my Vespa stolen, having been followed home by toerags who were openly checking out my home and my ride, and living in an area where recent scooter thefts have involved a violent (daylight) attack and a murder - I'm not feeling as safe riding my scooter in London as I was a few years ago. And I know for a fact that I'm not alone in feeling that.

I'm glad to hear that your personal experience has been positive - it's a much needed antidote to my own observations. But you're a solid-looking bloke on a moose of a maxi-scooter, and I'm a smallish woman on a bike that is roughly the same dimensions as a BV350.

Your own experience aside, there is no doubt at all that things have gotten a lot worse in the last few years. Bike bays in the area of our downtown campus (Oxford Street - Tottenham Court Road area) used to be stuffed with Vespas of all shapes and sizes - these days you see the odd 125, occasionally a trashed 250 or 300. I can only think of two members of our extended London Vespa family who haven't been the victims of a theft or an attempted theft. Thieves travel with bolt croppers and angle grinders, take bikes in broad daylight, and post the thefts on social media. And the knock-on crimes have skyrocketed.

So yeah, perhaps I'm overstating the case a bit, but no matter how you spin it, it's not an acceptable situation.

[/quote]
So yeah, perhaps I'm overstating the case a bit, but no matter how you spin it, it's not an acceptable situation.[/quote]

Totally unacceptable! But I'm damned if I can see a way of ending it that doesn't involve (non existent) resources or (equally non existent) money. Unless we can get those at the highest level to see and accept the situation for what it is and release the funding and manpower nothing is going to change. Sadly.

Understood.
It must be awful to have had any of the experiences you've had. Really awful.
Perhaps I've been lucky because of location (there's a few Vespas who park in the same bay as me in the daytime, and have done for some time).
Perhaps I've been lucky because I ride a big heavy ugly Piaggio.
Perhaps it's really only Vespas at a higher risk because the security is rubbish (I regularly park by a tmax and a silverwing).
In any case though, scooter crime does seem to have risen to unacceptable levels, and I'm absolutely behind any measures to reduce it.
I just wanted to chip in my story and say that central London isn't a lawless state where there's a bike thief on every corner...(yet).

It amazes me every time I park up in a motorcycle bay in central London, how few bikes have any locks on them at all. I usually put both a disc brake and a chain on mine if I'm away from it for more than a couple of minutes (even if there's nothing to chain it to). I would say at least half of the scooter and motorcycles I see parked are using nothing but their steering lock. I get it: it's a faff to have to put the locks on and take them off, but with the theft rate what it is, you'd be crazy not to.

Yes I know! Perhaps these are the people who haven't been the victim of a theft (yet). I was totally naive for first two years and used only steering lock no problems. A month after I start using an Almax chain and Squire padlock and ground anchor is when my GTS get nicked, hows that for irony. Needless to say, from now on I will be using all security measures that is practically possible for the given situation, disk lock alarm chain etc.

Safe riding

I park up in W1 every weekday.

I don't think I ever see a bike without a lock.

I don't make an absolute 100% point of looking, but I have recently been thinking about getting an additional disk lock so I've sort of been paying attention as to what size locks other bikes were using and how/whether they would fit mine, and I certainly haven't noticed anyone not using a lock...

Doesn't have to be a bar code tag, Police have readers that will read license plates as they are made now. They use them in cities looking for stoles cars now.
Camera is mounted to cop car and they slowing drive down the road and it reads the plates of all the parked cars.

Woo all you folks are going to apply to your local police dept. S they would be able to use your expertise and the help.
One of my more notable complaints was because I spoke too harshly.
At seems that being raised in Pittsburgh pa. Gave me a accent. This offended this lady,and she complained . it didn't matter c that my officers. Solved the problem I spoke harshly.
A great laugh was had with that one

New story from the frontline in London. I'm sure plenty more never make a headline

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/i-will-never-forget-the-night-scooter-thieves-terrorised-my-family-george-trefgarne-a3433411.html

Spread the word people, the more headlines the better, someone is going to get killed by one of these thugs.

The authorities need to admit that it is out of control instead of keep using the word 'moped' which has a belittling effect on the type of crime being committed

Sadly, already happened - September 2016. RIP Ricky Hayden. I don't think its changed anything one bit, unless I've missed any better info.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/bodyguard-to-the-stars-killed-on-his-driveway-trying-to-stop-machete-robbery-gang-a3344271.html

It would seem that the U.K. police are more intent on targeting terrorism, which is a laudable goal.
If these incidents don't constitute terrorism, I don't know what else to call them.
IMHO they should be pursuing these urban terrorists with all the tools in their arsenals.

Any updates on this incident?
Have they found who the murderers were?