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Hey Vespa dudes !!

Just pulled apart my gas tank & petcock. Tank was a mess (10 years of gas sitting in tank) I got 99 % of the rust & gunk out. I used a technique from a Corvair forum (pour Acetone in tank (1/4 full) let sit for a week sealed ... run garden hose into it ... fire up the hose ! Works amazing .... eats everything in there and whats left comes out with hose. But ... is there a product anyone can suggest to seal the inside of the tank that I can cork the petcock hole & pour in !?

Please let me know ... THX

Boo
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Acetone works good, but Acid (Phosphoric) does even better. The last tank I cleaned that way was on a Lambretta Jet 200. As soon as I had rinsed it out with water, I dried it (with a blow drier), and filled it with the regular premix (3% oil in gas). Still looks great inside, 5 years later. These will only rust if left empty in a humid environment. If you want to leave it in storage, get some oil in there, make sure all surfaces are covered, and let the excess flow out.
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How long do I leave the acid in the tank !? Do I wash it out with water after draining the acid !? Do I treat / spray it witn WD-40 after I blow dry it!?

How is the Por product suggested on this thread !? I've used Por 15 before and it worked great on undercarriage.

THX

Boo
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Yeah, rinse out the phosphoric acid solution w/ water afterwards. Nuts & bolts inside and shaking helps scrub the inside if there's much crud inside.

I'd advise against any permanent 'coating' in the tank, they tend to come loose and make a mess in time. WD40 probably won't hurt, but your oily gasoline in there sloshing around is all you need once it's clean. Listen to Frank.
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Hi boo

We use this here in Australia that does a real good job.

http://www.kbs-coatings.com.au/product/motorcycle-fuel-tank-sealer-kit/

I have used this personally and can highly recommend the product
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+1 to phosphoric acid. dump some in, let it sit and rotate the tank around every few hrs. then, once done just rinse with water. dry, rinse with acetone and run some 2T around in there to coat it.

the only sealer i've had ok luck with is the POR stuff, but even then it's a roll of the dice and you still have to clean the tank as above-- obviously you skip the oil at the end...

-g
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Hey guys - THX for all the grat info & response!! Quick question what is 2t ?! Does that mean do it twice (2x) !? Or is it an addictive!?

I got a clothes Dryer Cleaner brush up inside the tank (once I pulled the petcock) and spun it around a bit to get loose stuff out ... Worked nicely.

Please let me know what 2t is/means.

THX

Boo
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Boo Sparx wrote:
Hey guys - THX for all the grat info & response!! Quick question what is 2t ?! Does that mean do it twice (2x) !? Or is it an addictive!?

I got a clothes Dryer Cleaner brush up inside the tank (once I pulled the petcock) and spun it around a bit to get loose stuff out ... Worked nicely.

Please let me know what 2t is/means.

THX

Boo
It's a common way of identifying two stroke oil. The kind you either mix with fuel or put in the injection tank
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NOOOO coatings
Tried all that coating stuff back "when my cement was still wet." (young)

They all eventually start to flake causing worse problems than rust does

the stage 1 cleaning bottle in POR 15 is just phosphoric acid you pay extra for the brand name...so look in auto stores for cheaper....the second bottle is the coating..which I would never use again

Two pillows either side of the tank filled with bolts and all wrapped up with rope can go in the clothes dryer. It works mint

Once its clean...2t(two stoke mix) will keep it that way
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What he said about the resins/coatings: never tried them (never needed to), but I've heard plenty of the same stories of guys saying how great they were when they first tried them, and then finding out later on that the blocked fuel lines or crapped-up carb problems they were having down the line were the doings of flaking/dissolving coatings. Too aggravating and unnecessary to even try, AFAIK.

Here's the Lambretta tank I mentioned earlier. It was worse when I started, but this is the best I could get with Coca Cola (contains phosphoric acid) and a chemical drain cleaner with coins:

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

This is the point I decided to go ahead and put those Chemistry lessons to use. BTW, I mentioned phosphoric acid earlier (which also works great), but in the example below I actually used Hydrochloric acid (what I had available at the time). This could have been done several ways, but here's the process I followed in this case:

1. Make sure to seal the bottom of the tank (so it doesn't leak on your feet), and WEAR GLOVES! (not the thin latex type; the thick kind used to manipulate acids). And keep a bucket of water nearby in case you get some acid on your skin somehow, to plunge the body part affected, or splash yourself if needed.

2. Pour 1 liter of water first into the tank, then slowly add a liter of hydrochloric acid. Golden rule: always pour water first, THEN acid; or in other words: pour acid into water, NEVER water into acid. The mix will seem to boil and fume like hell (the cold water and acid really heat up fast together), so avoid breathing the smoke. Swish it around for 10 minutes (it started appearing clean before that).

3. Pour the acid solution out of the tank, and rinse with water 3 times.

4. Pour 1 liter water into the tank, and add 1 liter lye (sodium hydroxide). Move the solution around for 5 minutes. (This is to reestablish a neutral pH, but rinsing plenty should achieve the same thing).

5. Again, rinse thoroughly.

6. Dry with a hair drier.

Tip: I never tried this at home because of the toxic fumes, but you should be able to safely pour the HCl in a toilet bowl (it will clean it up nicely), and then the NaOH when you're done neutralizing your tank. That basically turns otherwise separately aggressive chemicals into H2O (water) and NaCl (table salt).

Result:

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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WOW !!! Thats some serious results !! I'm going with that !! Thanks for the info ... Looks like I have a plan.

THX

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another one, was being thrown away because too rusty
before
before
after, almost looks sandblasted
the phosphoric acid is also stage 1 prep w/ KREEM tank coating
the nuts & bolts were rusty before dancing inside the tank
after, almost looks sandblasted the phosphoric acid is also stage 1 prep w/ KREEM tank coating the nuts & bolts were rusty before dancing inside the tank
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Re: NOOOO coatings
Bluecati wrote:
Tried all that coating stuff back "when my cement was still wet." (young)

They all eventually start to flake causing worse problems than rust does

the stage 1 cleaning bottle in POR 15 is just phosphoric acid you pay extra for the brand name...so look in auto stores for cheaper....the second bottle is the coating..which I would never use again

Two pillows either side of the tank filled with bolts and all wrapped up with rope can go in the clothes dryer. It works mint

Once its clean...2t(two stoke mix) will keep it that way
x2 on the clothes dryer. I normally use gravel instead of bolts just because I have a gravel driveway. Using the "clothes dryer" method will remove about 98% of the rust. It's pretty amazing how well it works.
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Re: NOOOO coatings
whodatschrome wrote:
Using the "clothes dryer" method will remove about 98% of the rust.
...and 100% piss off your old lady!

if you're gonna do it, pick up a cheapy off of CL or at a yard/estate sale and use it out in the garage without the heat source. if your gal is picking gravel outta her chonies she'll be madder than a wet hen, guaranteed!

-g
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in the winter, I leave the door open to warm the garage.

Wrap in an old quilt to the diameter of the dryer so it is only rotating the tank and not banging around.

nickel plating is the way to go instead of lining with the modern gas but is pricey!
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Re: NOOOO coatings
greasy125 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
Using the "clothes dryer" method will remove about 98% of the rust.
...and 100% piss off your old lady!

if you're gonna do it, pick up a cheapy off of CL or at a yard/estate sale and use it out in the garage without the heat source. if your gal is picking gravel outta her chonies she'll be madder than a wet hen, guaranteed!

-g
Yes is did, and yes she was. It was a valuable lesson though...the second time I did it, I just waited until she left for the day.
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Thought about wrapping the tankup in Bubble Wrap and putting it in the Dryer !! Do I do this after the acid bath !? With bolts inside !? I cant imagine I do this with acid inside tank !? That sounds like grounds to get me thrown out of house.

Thanks !

Boo
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Boo Sparx wrote:
Thought about wrapping the tankup in Bubble Wrap and putting it in the Dryer !! Do I do this after the acid bath !? With bolts inside !? I cant imagine I do this with acid inside tank !? That sounds like grounds to get me thrown out of house.

Thanks !

Boo
I'd think before the acid, to knock off most of the rust, then the acid would finish off what remains.
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Ok - Makes sense !

THX

Boo
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Threw it in the dryer (all wrapped up in blankets & tied) with bolts inside ... 20 minutes! Worked like a charm !!!

All kinds if rust came pouring out. Do I rinse with water now !? and then do acid !? or just do acid with powery rust residue inside !?

Again thanks for all the great info & steps to cleaning this tank up ... it was a mess !

THX

Boo
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Can I use Muriatic Acid (I think its the same as Hydrochloric acid ?) instead !? with water !? I use this to clean my pool salt cell & it works great. I've read that its the same as Hydrochloric !? Please let me know .. I've gound Phosphoric acid at Home Depot ... but they say its a cleaner .. and I'm wondering if its mixed with something that my not be best for inside tank !?

THX

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I found this on using muriatic acid to remove rust:
Quote:
Obviously you are determined to do this but just as with body work if you do you will in all likelyhood regret it. The problem is that although it will remove the rust you see (actually what you see is NOT rust, it is the already oxidized byproduct of the rusting process which you can not see) it will set in motion a process that will lead to more damage than you have now. Once the acid contaminates the iron (ESPECIALLY iron castings which tend to be somewhat porous) the chemical reaction that starts will be nearly impossible to stop. Some will say you simply need to neutralize the acid, much easier said than done, and while steps to do this will slow the damage it hardly ever stops it completely. The rust solutions both dissolve the oxide on the surface and convert it to a phosphate that tends to stop the rusting process, the Hydrochloric (Muriatic) acid on the other hand will dissolve the oxides but as far as stopping the rusting process it will be like throwing gasoline on a fire! I have battled this for years on mining equipment that was exposed to Sulfuric acid and I can tell you that once the metal is contaminated it can really make a mess. It is not as simple as removing the iron oxides that you can see you must take into account the chemical process that you are about to start, and this is one that you don't want any part of! Do yourself a favor and use Phosphoric acid because it will remove the oxides also but it will start the right chemical reaction that will leave the phosphate coating that will inhibit rust instead of accelerating it. The Phosphoric acid may take a little longer but it is definitely the better way to go, usually the fastest way out of something just leads right back in!
So it seems muriatic acid will encourage further rust, phosphoric will inhibit it.
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Ok - thanks for the heads up !! I always prefer to do the job once & do it right !!

THX

Boo
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Can I use this !? And do I use it straight up !? or mix with water !?

THX

Boo
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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I used muriatic acid on my tank. Rinsed it with baking soda solution, then water, then acetone, then Wd-40, then poured about a pint of 2 stroke oil and swished that all around.
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I would suggest caution with hydrochloric acid and stick with the phosphatic.

HCl (muriatic acid) does not play well with aluminum. No...I have not seen aluminum tanks but I have plenty of it laying around. It will react violently! I have acidized many wells with large volumes of 22% HCl (like 4,000 liters) and it can get hairy! Remember...chemistry can kick your ass!

I have a Lambretta TV175 S3 that someone put a coated tank in. That crap just falls off and makes it's way to the carb.

As far as drying, for a Vespa tank I just take an old hair dryer and stick it in the fill hole. Leave it on low and dry in less than an hour.

Everyone has a hair dryer in their shop don't you?
⚠️ Last edited by ScooterRaton on UTC; edited 1 time
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I've also used Muriatic acid to remove rust. It works very well, but it's not for the faint of heart. It'll burn right thru your skin and the fumes are highly toxic. ThomasHSB is correct, it must be thoroughly neutralized with a soda solution or it will continue to eat away at the underlying metal. And the rust will return almost immediately if the part isn't coated with WD-40 or some other petroleum based product right away.
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Re: NOOOO coatings
greasy125 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
Using the "clothes dryer" method will remove about 98% of the rust.
...and 100% piss off your old lady!

if you're gonna do it, pick up a cheapy off of CL or at a yard/estate sale and use it out in the garage without the heat source. if your gal is picking gravel outta her chonies she'll be madder than a wet hen, guaranteed!

-g
That's hardcore! Buying a dryer to clean tanks!
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Re: NOOOO coatings
ScooterRaton wrote:
greasy125 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
Using the "clothes dryer" method will remove about 98% of the rust.
...and 100% piss off your old lady!

if you're gonna do it, pick up a cheapy off of CL or at a yard/estate sale and use it out in the garage without the heat source. if your gal is picking gravel outta her chonies she'll be madder than a wet hen, guaranteed!

-g
That's hardcore! Buying a dryer to clean tanks!
my buddy flips a lot of motorcycles so it was more of an investment than anything else. he also kinda uses it as a vibratory tumbler-- there's rubbermaid and cleaning media involved. and a used dishwasher as a parts cleaner, as well.

anyway, you'd be surprised how many washers, dryers, fridges and dishwashers get tossed. usually the dryers have bad controls or the ignition/heating elements go bad and it's expensive or impossible to replace those so people just buy new. with dishwashers, it's usually pumps or control panels or they don't look right when you remodel!

so, yeah, you could easily have a tumbler and a parts washer for next to nothing if you're persistent and want to put in a little work on the machines.

-g
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Suggestions on where to get phosphoric acid !? Harbor frieght !? Home depot !? Auto paint store !? Auto parts store !? Would a paint store have it !? Brand name etc.

Any and all links welcome ...

Thanks again all ... my tank came out of dryer today oozing rust dust !!

Boo
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amazon, baby!

the gallon is enough to do two really nasty tanks, so if yours isn't totally waxed then a quart should be okay.

-g
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If saving original paint then Rust-B-Gone and a light coat of 2T oil.

If re-painting then nickel plate via your local electroplater.
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I know vinegar is slower, but does it attack aluminum as bad as the other stuff? I have an OT bike that'll be a while before I get to it but I'm thinking of filling the tank with vinegar and letting it sit a week or two until I get one of them circular things that get work done.
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Off Wikipedia:
Quote:
Because aluminium forms a passivating acid-resistant film of aluminium oxide, aluminium tanks are used to transport acetic acid
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Re: NOOOO coatings
greasy125 wrote:
ScooterRaton wrote:
greasy125 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
Using the "clothes dryer" method will remove about 98% of the rust.
...and 100% piss off your old lady!

if you're gonna do it, pick up a cheapy off of CL or at a yard/estate sale and use it out in the garage without the heat source. if your gal is picking gravel outta her chonies she'll be madder than a wet hen, guaranteed!

-g
That's hardcore! Buying a dryer to clean tanks!
my buddy flips a lot of motorcycles so it was more of an investment than anything else. he also kinda uses it as a vibratory tumbler-- there's rubbermaid and cleaning media involved. and a used dishwasher as a parts cleaner, as well.

anyway, you'd be surprised how many washers, dryers, fridges and dishwashers get tossed. usually the dryers have bad controls or the ignition/heating elements go bad and it's expensive or impossible to replace those so people just buy new. with dishwashers, it's usually pumps or control panels or they don't look right when you remodel!

so, yeah, you could easily have a tumbler and a parts washer for next to nothing if you're persistent and want to put in a little work on the machines.

-g
I don't have enough room for scooters! Now I need to find room for major appliances! When does it ever end!!!!! Well...never I hope!
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Re: NOOOO coatings
ScooterRaton wrote:
I don't have enough room for scooters! Now I need to find room for major appliances! When does it ever end!!!!! Well...never I hope!
it truly doesn't! after building my shop at home i was like: man, i'm never gonna need more room!

then once you drop in a lathe, a mill, a tear down table, two scooter lifts, some racking for parts storage, a few 60's car parts (engines, transmissions, rear ends) and a few tool boxes.... well, then you start thinking about putting up another building!

-g
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Neurotic-Hapi-Snak wrote:
Off Wikipedia:
Quote:
Because aluminum forms a passivating acid-resistant film of aluminum oxide, aluminum tanks are used to transport acetic acid
Nice!
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@boo_sparx avatar
'65 Vespa 90
Joined: UTC
Posts: 108
UTC quote
Hey Vespa Buds !!

I used the clothes dryer - with nuts and bolts - Rust Dust was epic.

Got a quart of Phosphic acid & dumped that in to tank & let sit overnight- washed it out with garden house - more rust colored fluid (but not much) & I then sprayed the F@&k out of the inside of tank with WD-40 & coated all of the inside.

With that said - It looks nowhere near as clean & pristine as the tank pictures on this thread from the guy who used Muratic acid (i've seen that stuff at work on my Salt cell for my pool !!) So - am I to believe that the acid I used woukd not fry the inside of the tank as much as Muratic acid ... but just change the metal chemistry to a more neutral and less corrosive environment!?

Thanks for all the help & knowledge base.

Boo
UTC

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Addicted
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Posts: 903
UTC quote
Phosphoric acid will create a layer of iron phosphate on the metal's surface which will help prevent further rust. It's similar to Parkerizing, but Parkerizing usually uses zinc or manganese phosphate and uncommonly iron phosphate. Iron phosphate is a matte dark grey to black color, and is slightly porous, which helps hold oil to further prevent corrosion. Iron phosphate also helps paint or other coatings adhere.

I wonder if you could heat up the phosphoric acid to help create a thicker coating of iron phosphate? Parkerizing solution (phosphoric acid with the addition of zinc or manganese, and other trace metals) is usually heated to 190-210*f, and takes about 5 to 45 minutes, once it stops bubbling it's done. But you add powdered iron to the solution first, which dissolves and reacts to form the phosphate, which then deposits on the surface of the part when it's added later. This prevents the solution from consuming too much of the part.
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