Modern Vespa

oh i fully understand what is happening but it is NOT a PIAGGIO problem or issue. Consumers have their own responsibility to safeguard their property and the local police have a responsibility to catch the thieves and bring them to justice.

If you read the above thread then you'll see all your arguments repeated (mostly by Al) and answered by those of who are affected by the issue. I fully appreciate that you don't have people trying to steal your stuff but we do. We all secure our scooters - I have big locks on the front and the back of the bike - but they can all be cut off if the thief has the time (they carry both bolt cutters and battery driven grinders). The only reason why they're targeting Vespa/Piaggio is because they know that they can easily bypass the immobiliser and ride it as their own. That is a Piaggio problem but they've just passed the problem onto their customers and decided to concentrate their engineering efforts on different colour schemes.

If you're happy that your $7000 investment can easily be ridden away in a couple of minutes then that's fine by me. I'm pretty sure you might change your mind if all the Vespa's in your area started to disappear one by one.

there are no arguments, its not a Piaggio issue that you have thieves in London. if you or others don't like your product for what ever reasons I am sure you live in a world your not FORCED to use that product and should move on to something else. You could also relocate to a better area that has less thefts or is that a PIAGGIO issue as well?

In all honesty I think all the points you raise were covered quite well in the other thread but if you have a new point then I'll be happy to answer that.

agreed that London's crime epidemic is not Piaggio's problem. But I'm interested to know whose problem you think it is that an upmarket scooter can be easily stolen by amateur villains with basic tools in a matter of minutes. How would you feel if you'd spent $50,000 on a car whose only security was 70s style pop-up door locks that could be flipped open by a teenager with a coat hanger? Wouldn't it occur to you that the manufacturer was being perhaps a bit remiss on the security side of things, given the value of the product?

There are numerous threads in this forum regarding various design flaws that are specific to the Vespa - exhaust gaskets that fail regularly, bad paint quality, stock exhausts that rot, faulty fuel pumps, etc. etc. etc. Not every Vespa owner experiences all of these issues - are you saying that because they're only a problem for some owners, they're not Piaggio's responsibility either? What you're actually saying here is that because it's not your problem, it's not a problem, period, and anyone who does have this problem doesn't have the right to own a Vespa. this is such a wonderful, sensitive, piece of advice, so clearly based in a thorough knowledge of a country you don't live in, that I honestly can't think of a response.

omg I actually know two people in London whose Vespa hasn't been molested or nicked not telling you who the other person is, i don't want to jinx them.

lets see you buy a car knowing it could be easily broken into. and who is at fault?
The issue is a thief nothing more or less. till those folks are under control there will ALWAYS be a issue. It doesn't matter what product they are stealing but that they are stealing others belongings. Till the good people who have had enough and fight back it will continue.
yawl can bitch all you want about Piaggio but if your not happy with the product don't buy it it is as simple as that.

As far as my comment on on moving and me being sensitive. Sorry. Oh I did live in England so don't make an ass out of yourself and assume.

So you'll know the meaning of the word twat then?

Ah, i see. so then you already know that particularly in the London area, 'relocating to a better neighbourhood' is ruinously expensive, logistically maddening, and geographically more or less pointless since posh neighbourhoods and council estates are often right next door to each other. ... which makes your remark even more insensitive and dumb.

My approach has been a little different.

I walked away from the Italian brand because of the numerous aforementioned faults but one of the benefits of riding a Kymco is that it's far less likely to get targeted for theft.

I'm not saying that it will never happen but it's far less likely.

Every GT/S that I've owned had had it's bars twisted in an attempt to break the steering lock where as the Kymco hasn't even been given a look.

If you can quantify peace of mind I'd have a lot.

Bill x

OAD - take a minute and think, please.

It's clearly a design fault, and one which other mftrs have taken on board and avoided.

All Vespa need to do is put the anti-theft bits in a different location on the bike...one that's not so damn simple to get at and bypass. This would be simple to do in the factory and have no incremental cost. Why are you arguing against it?

The whole London thing is a red herring in that sense. It's an irrefutably crap bit of design on a bike that sells itself as (and is, in so many other ways), a design classic.

So how many times do you have your Italian product stolen until you stop replacing it with another Italian product ?

It's in Vespa/Piaggio interest not to provide a solution or am I being cynical ?

Bill x

I'll vote cynical on this one.
Or, to put another way, so, how many times do you have your two wheeled conveyance stolen ....

I get it, I'm not there, have no idea what I am talking about, and haven't experienced anyone's pain who has experienced it (OK that's a stretch).

Anyway, cheers. Sticking with cynical.

The Downtown has a small plate that covers the ignition switch that's activated by the key.

I'm not suggesting that it makes it theft proof but without a tool box and a lot of time it makes it very difficult to start.

Just sayin.

Bill x

Indeed. Yamahas have had them for years. Simple, low cost, effective.

all right I took a minute.

installing a known anti theft device that is public knowledge does nothing. As every scoot is the same on wiring then ain't it. so what did you really solve?

no matter how you think its a manufacture issue it clearly is not. Its a society issue. Until that is fixed you will ALWAYS have issues whether its a scooter they steal, bicycles, tools, break into houses, robbing shops ect.

If I lived in a high crime area I would install some cutoff switches that would totally make things not able to run unless the item was fully taken apart to find the hidden wires. But that will only piss off the thieves and then they will take hammers and such to the scoot. Yet the problem is still there.
But at least by installing a custom cutoff switch it would give you a peace of mind, right?

Yep.

Copy that on my Honda Forza.

A very clever device indeed.

somerset

we're not asking Piaggio to solve London's crime problem. And we're not asking them to make a scooter that is impossible to steal. All we're asking is that they rectify something that clearly is a manufacturing issue: a really stupidly designed immobiliser that makes their products much, much easier to steal than any other scooter on the market.

Will scooters still get stolen occasionally? Sure they will - London has a crime problem. But installing an immobiliser that's on a par with other manufacturer's offerings will mean that Piaggio products are no more or less likely to get stolen than any other marque.

Piaggios are the bikes that all the thieves go for simply because of the crap security and they know they can easily get them running. Fancy sports bikes are also "ped-pushed" away but they're stolen to be broken down for parts. The bikes doing the ped-pushing are nearly always Vespa GTS's. If you come to London and have your mobile stolen then it will usually be two youths on a GTS. When we have security videos shown on the news (or on youtube) of store robberies etc it is nearly always Vespa GTS's. Piaggios crap security IS causing a crime wave across London at the moment. Wrong. The bike would still be stolen. They'd just ped-push it to some local council estate as they would any other Piaggio. When they find they can't start it they'd just throw it away and steal someone else's GTS. If you're very lucky the police might find what's left of it after they sell the bits.

IMO the GTS is probably stolen more because it or the parts will bring more $$$. I agree they are too easy to steal- up and running. However I agree with old as dirt that even with better security it will not matter untill the deterrent to this type of theft is greater. BTW does anyone there KNOW what the deterrent is ? How about for repete offenders ?. Honest people rarely know. Only untill a lot of people get involved, know what the law is, and how to go about getting it changed to a stiffer sentence will anything change. Manufacturers can build vechicle anyway they want, as long as it complies with motor vechicle standards. If it is a poor product, or not liked, or problematic-people will vote with their wallet and not purchase it. To continue to purchase and complain makes no sense to me. Again this is IMHO.

The cost of parts for a scooter aren't particularly high compared to bikes like Ducati etc. Piaggios are stolen simply because they're easier to steal than other bikes. After 2 minutes work you can have a fully operational bike. The bikes are then used in a whole variety of other crimes (stealing other bikes, muggings, robberies etc). I honestly don't know why you guys find it so hard to understand - if it was non functioning air bags being sold with your car then you'd be the first to call your lawyers but non functioning security is apparently fine. Supplying functional security is surely better than throwing more and more people into jail? Interestingly the highest percentage of people in prison is America with even China and Russia well behind you guys.

Piaggio must be losing loads of sales in London - and the rest of the UK come to that. There are many London MV members right now who might have purchased another Piaggio scooter - but went to a different marque just because of this theft problem when it was time to change bikes. My local London dealer (who used to sell Piaggio exclusively) now sells far more units of other makes - and they tell me it's just because of the well-known easy theft problem.

My French friends report that it's becoming a problem in Paris, Lyons and Marseilles as well - and France is a far bigger market for Piaggio than the UK.

You can tear the front off a cheap Chinese scooter, unplug the ignition, kickstart it and ride away. That's a little easier than stealing a GTS, and there's tons of Chinese scooters in the UK, so ease of theft is not the only reason those things get stolen.
If you really want to make it hard to steal your GTS, install a Ford Model T ignition coil. It's $20-40, and if you hook it up right, it will deter the heck out of thieves.

Strictly speaking that only makes the bike hard to start. Your GTS would still get stolen and ped-pushed to wherever they want to take it. If they can't start it then they'd either abandon it somewhere or sell it for parts. The GTS will only stop getting stolen when it loses it's reputation for being a simple to steal (and start) scooter - the only people who can change it's reputation is Piaggio. Sadly, Piaggio see every stolen bike as a potential new sale.

as a marketing strategy, that's not really forward-looking is it?

and for our American friends who still insist that because your scooters aren't getting stolen, the security issue isn't a problem - you can be sure that if Vespa sales start to tank on the continent then you will start to feel it in the form of more expensive, less easily available parts and service, among other things.

We're all speculating on this really. It'd be interesting to hear a definitive position from Piaggio on it - I remember some quote acknowledging it a while back but that's it. So they've left a vacuum they could/should have filled, and we're filling it instead. I stand by my view though that 'our problem' with this, which surely has to have got back from Piaggio UK to Piaggio Group, hasn't been significant enough for them to see it as 'their problem'. Not enough to make Piaggio respond, or at least not in a way that we'd like or expect them to. When I looked at the Piaggio sales numbers last year, which I'm darned if I can find again, the UK market was tiny in comparison to Europe and international sales. I don't think its causing them enough pain or problem (yet).

So I'm not defending Piaggio or condoning them for appearing to ignore our problem, just pointing out that there is always a bigger picture that we can't see. Maybe its ignorance, maybe its complacency, maybe its lousy customer service, maybe its better security already in design for the GTS replacement. We really have no idea what they know and what they've chosen to do, or not do, to respond...

after a very long wait, robinm got a response from Piaggio sometime last year, to the effect that their security was fine and that scooters were getting stolen because customers weren't locking them properly.

It's considered a "man trap" and you could get more prison time than the thief, especially if he were injured or killed.

I'm the other one and I'm thinking it's only a matter of time.

I've stopped riding my scoot to anywhere other than to and from work and to the gym, anywhere else I drive a car or take the tube.

Work is a secure underground car park with CCTV, I don't even bother with the chain. That reminds me, the OP mentioned he'd rented a secure underground parking space for the 300, I also rent one of these to store one of my cars. It's access controlled by key fob and heavy steel automatic gates but the lock for them is only a magnetic lock on one of the gates. The garage has been broken into in the past and a classic car was stolen. It was all recorded on CCTV. The method used to open the steel automatic gates was to ram raid them with a Vespa GTS. Turns out the magnetic lock can't withstand the force of a GTS ram raid.

Home is on a very nice garden square that's extremely quiet. I chain the chrome luggage rack to a hand railing which I know is not very effective at all. The only thing I can think of that's saved me from theft is the privileged location that I'm very lucky to live at. To demonstrate the diversity of London to our American friends a 1000sqft two bedroom flat with no garden or garage is about US$1.7M and right next door is social housing, what you might call a project or ghetto.

If my GTS 250 gets nicked (I think its just a matter of time now) I certainly won't be replacing it with another one. Honda SH300i would be my choice with H.I.S.S

Even if piaggio did do something and changed/increased security, this wouldn't stop those thieves prepared with angle grinders etc.

I'm pretty sure that a high percentage of the scoots stolen are stripped of parts and sold online (ebay, facebook, gumtree). Now, the only way to stop this is people more vigilant when buying parts, because if their income is cut - demand will likely decrease.

I'm probably not explaining myself well but the only reason they go for GTS's and BV's is because they can easily bypass the immobiliser and then use the bike as their own. There are plenty of other more expensive bikes in motorcycle bays but, if you want to steal a bike you can use, you steal a Piaggio. More specifically you steal a GTS or a BV. They know this and that's why they steal them. The Piaggio's that are stolen are then used in a wide variety of crimes from mobile phone theft, store robbery etc. They also use stolen Piaggios to push away other stolen bikes that are then broken down for parts. Eventually they'll damage their current ride, or maybe they'll just want a change of colour, and they'll steal another GTS/BV. At that point they'll sell the original for parts.

robinm

I am just curious, is your GT200 too "old" or "slow" to be of value to the scooter thieves or is it a target as well?

they're not interested in GT200s - they're carbed scooters, older, known to be slower, and less easy to swap parts out of. If I'm not mistaken the immobiliser is also incompatible with the aftermarket ones for the later GTS models, and in a less convenient location.

I can see a day coming when the only people buying Piaggio parts on ebay are toerags selling bits of stolen scooters to each other

I expect that if the thefts continue at this rate, more and more people will abandon the brand and demand will decline anyway.

This is a little left of field but would you enjoy riding another brand as much as your Vespa/Piaggio/Thing Fish ?

Bill x

I got stopped by the rozzers yesterday afternoon on Sloane Street, Chelsea. Just a routine vehicle and licence check.

I thought everything was fine but I have two cars and the Vespa so keeping track of MOT's, road tax and insurance for all of them is more than I can remember in my head, he asked if the bike was mine and registered in my name, it is, I handed over my licence slightly panicked, he went to his car to check everything on the computer, all OK. Phew.

He then asked me if I was aware of the theft problem particularly of Vespa's in London, we had a nice long chat about it. He was astonished I'd never had one stolen after I said its been parked on a residential street chained to a hand rail for the past 8 years. He recommended I only park it in a private, secure garage.

I said I'd been followed before by kids on another scooter scoping me out, seeing where I parked but I "lost them" in traffic (the power of a 250 is good for all sorts) before I went to work or went home.

I asked his opinion of helmet cams, I've never worn one but I have a go-pro and I'm considering starting to use it and he said its a good idea, they doo look at the footage from them and it can be very helpful. So I'm going to dig out a helmet mount and get that sorted on the weekend. Up to now I've always thought helmet came were worn by tossers but there you go. I'm going to be "that guy" starting next week.

The people we are contending with...

Now that's what you call Madison Avenue style advertising.
They sure have a lot of nerve.

Yes they have much brass neck. You report them but nothing happens. I see them riding stolen scooters. Always BV/GTS.

Five years ago five of my neighbours had Vespa. Mine was stolen then the rest went over six months. Now none of us do. I had a Honda, but that was so dispiriting that I sold it (never molested with by anyone though) and now catch the train.

I'd buy one again if I had a garage. Otherwise, no. There's a Scomadi coming out with steel panels this year. That might tempt me out again.

London is the worst place to own a GTS300 by far,If it's left on the street it's only a matter
of time as it "will" happen and north London is a real hot spot.

If you have to leave it on the street outside your home make sure you have a proper chain like a 16mm Pragmasis chain and feed it through
the rear wheel, also on a GTS300 in London a tracker is a Must these days, the datatool-TrakKING or Biketrac trackers are the best.

But overall the more locks the better but stay away from all the oxford locks sold for the masses as that stuff is crap
If you want proper security products you have to pay for them it's that simple or pay for a new bike/scooter when it's stolen.

But overall London is out of control with bike/scooter thefts at the moment, it's by far the worst it's been and it ain't going
to get better no matter what people think.

And the biggest problem is now that they just use grinders to cut the locks so it's very easy for them so if you can the more locks the better.

Links to locks and trackers...

Pragmasis 18mm D-LOCK :
http://securityforbikes.com/proddetail.php?prod=DIB

Pragmasis 16mm chain and padlock: Ideal for GTS/BV350
http://securityforbikes.com/proddetail.php?prod=P16-x.x-SS65
http://securityforbikes.com/proddetail.php?prod=P16-x.x-RoundLock

Pragmasis 19mm chain and lock: Ideal for BV350 and wheels with space/bigger gaps
http://securityforbikes.com/proddetail.php?prod=P19-x.x-SS65CS
http://securityforbikes.com/proddetail.php?prod=P19-x.x-RoundLockCombo

Trackers Datatool and Biketrac:
www.trakking.net
www.biketrac.co.uk

And vespa/piaggio's with small rims with tight spaces you can get the pragmasis 13mm chain.
http://securityforbikes.com/proddetail.php?prod=P13-x.x-SS50CS