Modern Vespa

That was from his old corks/plates /clutch etc. disintigrating I do believe .
Over the winter I am finishing rebuilding my Rally 180 motor and I am going to rebuild its clutch with Honda plates too - so i'm gettin in on the 7 spring action as well!!!

Correct, that's what was left of the tabs on original cork bottom left, first pic.

See how it looks a bit odd? The rest of it was floating around inside the gearbox and there was a big load of it on the magnet when I went to change the oil after the clutch rebuild. I knew the tabs went somewhere and got more swarf out rinsing 4 times w/ gas because I'm too lazy to split the motor & do it right.

Love your work V oodoo!

Aw shucks Ginchy, thanx.

Been riding around about a week now and it's kinda boring having a clutch that just works. Zero problems so far and another big benefit noticed. The clutch doesn't drag like stock clutches can, it seems to let go more completely and I suppose that has to do with less surface area to drag in the first place and may have to do with the many more drain slots in the corks. I like this 'feature', especially coming to a stop light.

Next up, change the oil & see if I can recover more glitter and bits of scrap metal from the old clutch.

Such a cheap & easy upgrade, big thanks to Ginch for enlightening me on this. Who's gonna be next to try it?

#3 is why I dont like largeframes. their clutches are horrible no matter what clutch you put in them. only thing other than a car that spins at crankshaft speed.

Joe, have you tried the CR80 corks? So far much less horrible for those that have and no horror stories like that 'better' clutch thrust bearing thing.

BMW motorcycle, Moto Guzzi, I'm sure there are others.

Over a month later and all is good with this clutch. I noticed another benefit, if you can call it that. When riding a short distance and feeling lazy, maybe even carrying a bag of stuff and don't feel like shifting much, I can get going then just get into 3rd. As long as I don't have to come to a full stop I never need to shift gears. Just play this buttery clutch & minimal throttle going around corners and the stock P200 torque keeps me rolling along fine.
Almost Tn'G style

Just finished rebuilding a stock 7 spring clutch with these plates. I ties the plates together with cable ties and did the tabs all in one go.

Now I like this idea!!!! I'm doing another one soon and I will try it too . Thanks for sharing.

Good plan. Will do the same with mine too. Winter rebuild starting in a few weeks

And? In the bike?

How come you didn't think of this clever idea Voodoo .... O man you're gettin Old!!!!

.... has never failed me...

https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Clutch-23-teeth-complete-LTH-Honda-Vespa-PX200-Cosa-FL

Description says "only original Piaggio items incl. LTH basket" ... I'm confused...

BGM's Superstrong CR is the same thing and cheaper...

http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/BGM8299/

So I guess for your extra 120 euros (43% more than the BGM), with the LTH you do get a plate to stop the clutch spreading. Whether in the end it makes the clutch last 43% longer is the question.

No, not yet. I built 2 of the clutches and they are both waiting for other parts to complete the engines. Hopefully in a few weeks.

Same here. My CR80 plates are in (With similar (4year old and still perfect) superstrong basket) but waiting for the rest of the engine to put itself back together. I have all of the parts just no shed time.

Long list of stuff on my 221's Winter rebuild (2 years since last split).
The notable activities are;
1. re-matched the Polini base cut outs to my now Malossi barrel (matching the biggest of both, case and barrel). Re-done JB weld on one side as it fell out.
2. Put in a hard cruciform last time and still good, not changing it.
3. CR80 plates
4. New barrel studs. Old ones stretched.
5. All new cable inners
6. New springs in cush drive

Would like it back annoying the neighbours before Christmas (still possible)

Have a look at "White One Racing" on Facebook Jack, these guys do some very interesting stuff. As in this pic, they're not leaving anything to chance! I've had mine come loose as well, fortunately it couldn't drop out as it was jammed in place.





Last edited by Ginch on Mon, 18 Dec 2017 02:11:09 +0000; edited 2 times

Have you tried both? and compared them? just asking..

I have the BGM on my P. I can't see any innovations on the LTH that justifies the extra cost. Both use / copied the MMW design for the center / springs. Maybe the LTH's clutch is more expensive cause they're a smaller company, compared to SC, so their production costs are higher??

I do dimples or deep cross-hatching on the exhaust side of my piston... if helps dissipate heat.learnt it from a motoX person many moons ago
Also dimples are great to disrupt the flow & make he oil/petrol "bounce" off the sides.... when 5w & 0w oils came out it was soooo thin that it was needed to "slow the oil down" .

Golf balls have dimples to help them fly

I finally got around to testing my rebuilt clutch with cr80 pads.

It works. Smooth like butter. Nothing more to be said about it.

Thanks for others here for posting info about this little upgrade.

Hope your clutch is very boring from here on!!

Yep, like butter describes it very good
I also apply them for original engines
Once had, u cant go back

Lth was the first who made a honda clutch together with mmw
Was around 2010 or so, this one with the annoying top plate where u needed mini screws, it had 5 linings and was way too big, it never worked properly in the end... V1 was crap, v2 was fine then with only 4 linings,

https://youtu.be/yOBcKr4ci7I

Nice side effect when u use honda linings
The clutch becomes lighter
As the original ones are pretty heavy

Px old springs need to be aprox 50% harder
With cosa its a little bit less
Both with 10w40 semysync motorbike oil
Acc to honda recommendations

I ordered these cr80 plates modified by Bgm for late model cosa clutch, from scootercenter. I was very sceptical of these plates mainly because of how light the aluminum material is.
I keep flogging out the tabs on the steel plates so thought I would give them a go. But they have been on the shelf for a few months.
Anyway this afternoon I decided to fit them in and they fit well in a sip ultrastrong basket. I've just taken it for a ride and no slipping that I can feel. But I am running 10 sip XL springs so hoping they will keep it from slipping anyway. I'm also running a light gear oil silkolene 75/80 so that should help as well. The clutch just feels normal and hoping now that these tabs last a lot longer than the steel ones.. only time will tell

I have almost the same clutch. And had the same problem with the beaten up tangs. I fitted the CR80 plates during my 221 Winter re-build. Was really juddery the first few hundred miles, so much so I had to go back in and check the nut was still tight. Had all new bearings, steels and thrust washer(s) in there, so was only down to the CR80 plates.
Seems to have settled right down now. I can't imagine it will slip and starting to feel that butter smooth action is very nearly there.

I left the 5 XXL and 5 XXXL SIP springs in mine from the previous clutch (destroyed smelly black (slipping) plates after 2000 miles) but I feel they are now not needed. Will fit 10 new XXL springs next time in there.

Ok Jack you've just jolted my memory with your spring combo.
I was running all XL springs in my old setup but was starting to slip.
So I went with 10 XXL. It stopped slipping but
i didn't like how stiff the clutch felt, so I tried 5XL and 5XXL alternating heavy, light, heavy etc.
I thought it was slightly starting to slip in fourth gear under load on the freeway. That's when I tried the lighter gear oil and that seemed to do the trick.
I thought for sure the cr80 plates would slip with my spring combo, but to my surprise it's solid, so pretty happy with these plates so far.

I took a peek at my plates , and btw they were the paper composite ones so not sure if as good....? And at around 500-600 mi and around 1700-2000 I looked and they were fine. 2nd time i just peeked at the tabs and they looked real good. Both are kitted engines and both don't slip (Malossi 210 and 166).

A cheaper !!! and better alternative that only takes a bit of elbow grease -I LOVE IT!!!


P.S> one is a BGM Cosa superstrong with their supplied springs and one is a Cosa w BGM cog.

Ok I just re-read this thread (again)
And I have a few questions...

I have a kitted p200 engine with a 7 spring clutch.

So on the 7 spring I want to know:

Are you using the original steels?

How many CR corks? 2?

Are you using the original top plate with the T tabs?

Are you still using the standard 30 weight oil?

Specifically what CR80 corks are you using, and where are you sourcing them...

Thanks!

1) yep, I used the old original steels and the old top cork(all in decent condition) and just replaced the 2 trashed original style corks. Notice the tabs are hammered clean off of one of them.

2&3) I used only 2 Hondas and the original T top plate as I wanted the extra anti-basket-spread insurance, but some ppl use 3 Hondas. I would in a banded basket.

4) Used the same gear oil as before, but some ppl like lighter oil.

5) I got mine here https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Clutch-Plates-for-Honda-CR-80-Set-of-5-Plates-1984-2004-/351771949394 but if you search eBay you can find them closer.

Thanks V oodoo!

Good info...

So with the banded basket, I'm assuming you are using the 3rd Honda plate with the material ground off one side to accommodate the circlip?

I'm definitely going to try this...
I may even band my own basket...

Also, are you guys scraping out the material in the grooves on these? I had started doing this with the surflex plates...

Last edited by october on Sun, 04 Mar 2018 03:00:39 +0000; edited 1 time

Haven't tried a modified Honda plate on top w/ a 7 spring but should work fine. Falcon did it on a Cosa clutch and was easy enough to remove the friction pads from one side.

Good luck !

The grooves I think are fairly deep and were clear on mine October, so didn't feel the need to scrape them out as you suggest. But I can see on some brands of plate it may be worthwhile, espesially after they're a bit worn.

I used a Honda top plate and removed the material off the outward-facing (top) side. It really only takes 5 or 10 minutes. Think I used an angle grinder.

Ginch, is your basket banded?
Or are you just not using the stock plate with the T tabs and hoping for the best?

The "paper" composite plates I used are very very thin bit of material ,but even in a kitted 210 engine they seem to not wear alot. This is one mod you must just try and you will see for yourself.

Sure, probably useful on stock type corks like Surflex to deepen the oil drain channel to the max but on these I agree w/ Ginch, the factory style have numerous and deep grooves already and the other style(top) w/ modern friction material have only a thin coat of glue in the bottoms of those wide channels.




Going back to the pressure issue on CR disks, the 'modern' style one looks to have maybe a third less contact area due to the wider grooves than the already skinny factory style. So that means a third more pressure per mm² given the same total spring pressure. Damn, must be tough stuff.

So the stock Vespa disks use thin pieces of bark from a cork tree, stock Honda looks to be using something a bit less primitive, and those w/ magical small thin pads that look like cardboard must be the latest 21st century solution. Falcon has them & has had no problem w/ his. I used all stock Honda style.

What are you planning on using, Oct.? Have you ordered yet?

Also, pics please of your DIY basket banding. I've been wanting to try it.

My basket is a CNC one designed for the Honda plates. I guess it's stiff enough not to need banding. I can't recall what I did with the T tab business... it's out at the moment so I'll take a pic tonight after work.

For clutch baskets that need to get the modified cr80 discs,do we need to use the 1mm spacer that bgm has?