Modern Vespa

Hey All,

Just found this forum today and it's already been super helpful in my search for a scooter. I fell in love with Vespas when I rode one for a year in Asia in 2001, and now that I live in New York, I would love to start commuting on a bike again.

I love the way the P series looks, and even prefer it to the new styling of Vespas, but I've heard that the two-strokes can be a little more finicky than their four stroke counterparts.

I found a PX-150, brand new, for cheap. I'm probably going to buy it this week. Now, given the purchase price, I could probably flip it immediately and make a little profit on it, with the option of using the money towards a brand new LX 150. The idea of a twist and go bike is a little sacrilegious to me, but the bikes seem to be very popular and have good options, features, etc. Plus a more reliable commuter bike usually means a better commuter bike. I'm sure I'd learn to love the LX-150.

I understand that opinions are like (insert anatomical reference here), and that everyone has one. But what would you do? A brand new PX-150 or an LX-150? And why? Please don't suggest a GTwhatever. I can't afford it, and can't really warrant the extra cost by saving for one.

Thanks for your input. I'm sure I'll have more questions later.

Background on me....got the scooter lust about 1.5 yrs ago. I wanted a retro but reliable scooter. The Stella / PX-150 was the answer but the Stella was unavailable due to production problems and the PX not worth an extra $2000+ IMHOP. I purchased an automatic Buddy 125 which I love but it did not satisfy my desire for a shifter.

You are correct that the PX or Stella engine will be finicky but that doesn't mean less reliable than an automatic. Also your new PX-150 is an 2005 model. I know because I just picked up a PX-150, 2005 with 2 miles on the odometer for $3295 out the door from the Vespa dealer in Raleigh NC. The south Florida dealers are still trying to sell the PX-150 with after all the add ons totals $5600. Since there is not a large frame scooter sold in the US at this time they are using the "rare" logic to jack up prices. I believe that the Stella (PX Clone) will be available in very limited (220 units) quantities this fall and then fully in 2008. I wouldn't recommend trying to flip it as MOST (not all) scooter buyers are pretty astute and you don't really want to give someone a bad deal do you. What if it was you on the receiving end?

If you are comfortable driving a shifter in all conditions then get the 'new' PX and ride it for life. Just my $0.02 but you asked.

Good luck.

Tom

I went for the PX because I wanted manual shift.

The PX will be no less reliable, but it will be slower. If you are getting the killer deal on the PX that it sounds like, you can maybe afford to do some upgrades to make the PX go faster.

In what way, may I ask, do you feel that these scooters are more finicky?

EH? You might speak for Stella. But Vespa PX?

I love Vespa PERIOD, There's no debate here on Trad/Modern?

What do you want from your scooter? How often will you use it, commuting, weekend layaways, Scooter rallies

What's your experience riding. Twist and go, Clutch and gears?
The PX's are the last of the breed, 2 stroke= Fantastic for tweeking and leaving all the 4 strokers in the dust (at least bottom end)
There are going to be a lot of Lx's to choose from 5 years from now.
Go Piaggio Go PX 8)

Just my 2 pence mate.
Cheers

That's the ballpark of the price I would pay. If I'd sell, I think I'd only try to cover a bit of the difference for the $4,299 MSRP of the LX 150, not fleece anyone. I'd be totally happy with either one, honestly...but if the LX is a more n00b friendly bike, then...(I'm not afraid of a wrench, but I've never even filled a vespa tire with air before...I can learn, but I'm starting from square zero).

Mechanically, I don't think you have anything worry about. Plus, it will be under warranty.

The only learning curve--less, noob friendliness--is the manual transmission, but a few weeks of regular riding will get you over that.

Regardless of everything else, I would think the drastic price difference alone would make the decision.

Yeah. Like I said before (EDIT: maybe I didn't ), I previously rode a Px-150 (or mid-ninteties equivalent) in Asia for a year, so I'm not sweating the clutch/gear shifting...that's most of the fun!

As a new to riding 2 wheeled motorized vehicle person the automatic LX 150.

Dunno what I would have chosen IF the PX was legal in CA though...

Take an LX for a test drive if you're not sure.
It sounds like your mind is made up already, though.

And I don't think you could flip it for much profit after paying taxes + registration fees.

(I'm not afraid of a wrench, but I've never even filled a vespa tire with air before...I can learn, but I'm starting from square zero).[/quote]

We have you covered mate, Again there is nothing wrong with the LX
L= Learner X= Xcelent
P= Primadonna X= (your name here)

Welcome to the best forum out there
Cheers

Skip the 150....

Go find a PX200 now thats fun!

I think you are going to get a biased opinion towards the PX here... as the vast majority of people who have owned both tend towards the PX.

I sold my ET4 to get a PX and I haven't looked back. I say the PX.... just by adding a new pipe, I've hit the same speed I had on my ET4. Can't wait to upgrade the carb and get a kit.... then get a new pipe. Then maybe change the crank. And the gearing.

I think the manual transmission bikes are way more fun than autos ( at least the two models we're talking about here ).

But i will give the following disclaimer:

You SHOULD learn something about the PX mechanicals ..basic maintenance, cable replacement, etc ... if you're going to buy one. I'm not saying they are going to leave you in a lurch - they are good, reliable bikes, but they have points of failure that you should know how to deal with should the need arise.

www.vespamaintenance.com is the premiere site for any PX series maintenance questions.. familiarize yourself with this if you end up buying one.

So, yeah ...go PX.

-Eric

First..I love my PX! Couldn't wait to get it and expect to always have it.

But an manual shift vehicle, two or four wheeled, takes a greater level of awareness and skill to drive or ride. Have you ever sailed. It's fun. Have you ever windsurfed on a plane....you may only be traveling 12-15 knots and are technically sailing but the sensation is that you are a bullet with the ability to steer yourself. Have you ever had your ride stick in or our of gear at a stop with light or heavy traffic? It just doesn't happen on an automatic.

Finicky isn't bad..just different. Websters online dictionary defines it as: showing or requiring a greater attention to detail That's what I thought I said. It is no more or less reliable than any mechanical device if you are diligent in regular maintenance. I am. I would love to see the market (read consumer) demand / desire shifters but some just are not interested in the additional skills or are they challenges. To me they equate to skills = fun. It's subjective but you won't know till you try.

Tom

P.S. 25 yrs ago, when the razor thin wheeled 'english racer' bicycles were all the rage and the mountain bike thing was just beginning and all seemed to have 10-12-18-21 gears, I was determined to own an adult size bike with a coaster brake....no gears / no handbrakes. Tired of the constant finickyness of what was available. So I went retro when it wasn't available. Still got the bike, still ride it a lot. My wife and kids all have mountain type / 21 gear beach cruisers types with handbrakes but they are not finicky anymore. End Of Ramble.

shift!

jacqui

Thanks for the great link, Eric! Does anyone else have any must have info for a first-time PX owner (yeah, I think my mind is made up...)? What's a great place online to get parts (clutch cables, etc)?

Thanks

Yeah ..between vespamaintenance.com and scooterhelp.com all of your technical needs should be satisfied.

Parts are the easiest thing to come by ...particularly for a P-series. Any of your standard Mail / Internet parts stores do fine...

Motorsport Scooters ( a favorite of mine for the rarer vintage stuff)
Scooters Originali
Scooterworks
American Scooter Center

and so forth.

Go PX....if you want something auto, save your pennies and go GT or GTS.

I love my PX but am thinking of going to the GTS because its easier to ride. My shifting skills are questionable

Here's a good article on shifting manual scooters:

http://www.bajajusa.com/Gentle%20art%20of%20shifting.htm

Keep with it, Jacquie ... you just got your new scooter. Don't get discouraged already! It takes some folks longer than others, but soon you'll be able to do it without even thinking about it.

-Eric

I love my PX but am thinking of going to the GTS because its easier to ride. My shifting skills are questionable [/quote]

Yes, Keep it and buy a welded clutch basket
Cheers

I had the same choice, I went with the LX150. I like the fact that I can get on and just go. But then again I have a HD to feed my clutch needs.

Yes, Keep it and buy a welded clutch basket
Cheers[/quote]

Ok, sorry for the stupid question, but what is a welded clutch basket???
I know it was probably a joke, but I didn't get it.

Typically, Jacquie, a problem with the vespa clutch basket is that it is a really weak link of the engine. It works fine when your engine is stock, but requires some SERIOUS reinforcement when you start kitting out your engine to make it go faster, or the clutch will just fail - break into pieces ....rivets will shear off, plates will spin when they aren't supposed to, etc. In the most common case, the basket will actually start to flange out from the centrifugal force applied by the top end. (ironically, working very similar to the way that a CVT on an automatic scooter works - fanning out as the RPM's of the engine increase )

You buy a welded clutch basket because it's reinforced and can hold up to the pain you inflict on it.


I think he meant it as a joke to mean that if you're not good at shifting, you're being really mean to the clutch - rather than learning how to shift properly, just put a stronger clutch in there that can stand up to the abuse.

-Eric

Oh - visual aids help.

Here's your standard vespa clutch basket:



and here's a reinforced one aka a "banded" clutch basket ..banded because there's a band of metal welded around it to hold it together under high rotational force.

I pick the same bike I picked the last time this same question came up.

I'm way TOO slow here, Though i do have a job

Eric is, once again right. There is no joke here, You will really never need to replace your basket if you leave it stock, just the plates after Google miles.

All the vespas i have are kitted, for me that is part of the fun.
All the Jawdroppers enjoy 2 stroke 8)
Cheers

I will add this to the list of thing to be done after the warranty expires. Or is it even worth it to wait?

The visual aid did help!

As always, thanks!!

Jacquie, it would be the 6th or 7th thing you'd do following :

Bigger carb ( possibly reed block manifold conversion )
Expansion Pipe ..JL or a PM
Cut Crank
Top end kit ..DR177, Polini or Malossi 166
match the cases / top end

THEN you can talk upgrading the clutch basket It doesn't really GAIN you anything performance-wise ... it just prevents you from having to replace your clutch every year because you're exploding stock clutches.

-Eric

And it gets better!

Your riding in the 2 Stroke zone, the scooter is running tops THEN
Clutch Goes, you pull the lever, it rudders to a hault, Cars whizzin by, you thank jesus, Just because!

You get it towed to find out you need to split the cases, Bad Crank due to woodruff key holding basket parts where they shouldn't be???, Causing your crank to be placed on your Hall of shame Pistons to follow

Ease into performance goodies, Kit, Exhaust etc
I took many years for me to get it right and lots o money

What am i taking about?
Cheers

The most frustrating clutch instance i've ever had was on one of my first scooters, which i bought already heavily kitted and modified. ( non technical people, don't tune out - there's a moral at the end of the story )

I had taken it to cleveland to get worked on by a mechanic there. He got all the electrics sorted out for me, fixed a few small things. I got the bill - $900. YIKES ...oh well, at least it ran. My friend got on it first, right behind the shop it was worked on at - in the back alley.

Around the block it flies. I get on it... nothing happens. I'm revving the engine, releasing the clutch lever while it's in gear... and it stays still.

I'm completely frustrated. I get off of it, my buddy gets back on - same deal.

"oh, the clutch must have just fried" says the mechanic. So i just paid like $900 bucks to get my scooter working, and it made it one lap around the block STILL AT THE DEALERSHIP and something else just exploded that will require more money and more labor.

I was so heartbroken... i was ready to trade my nice scooter right then and there for something stock. Luckily i didn't. My friend convinced me that we'd drive back to detroit, he'd pull the clutch for me and we'd figure out what was wrong.

So that's what we did - turned out that i sheared off every rivet in the clutch basket ( this was on a Cosa clutch, too ..which is an upgrade to the stock p200 one ) ... and the clutch finally, at that opportune moment, decided to explode.

Long story short, $150 later for a new clutch and the bike was fine again. Since then i've done nearly every lick of work on my bike by myself...haven't ever taken one to a shop since. I still like to tell people that story because it really underscores the whole "Trials and Tribulations of Vintage ownership". Sometimes they explode and it breaks your heart ...sometimes they are down while you're fixing them and you have to sit there and watch all your friends ride away while you're stuck in your garage turning a wrench. In the end, i really think it makes the times that they DO work that much more enjoyable... making riding them almost cathartic.

I compare it to living in Florida year round vs. living in Michigan. We have some really sucky winters up here and you just look out the window and pine for riding weather, but it makes you enjoy the warmth of the summer and the abillity to get on your scooter and ride up to the pub all the sweeter. You have to know the bad to appreciate the good, and not take it for granted.

-Eric

What are you doing in cutting the crank? Is this the same as or different than "truing the crank?"

I'm thinking a welded clutch basket is something I might should get. Is this something you can purchase or is it something one manufactures?

In cutting the crank you are opening up the window of time in which the inlet port on your engine stays open. It allows for a bigger GULP of gas / air mix. Simply putting in a cut crank, there's a huge performance increase in your bike.

Truing / balancing the crank is important too, particularly since nearly all stock or cut cranks are pretty off balance-wise. There's a bunch of places here in detroit that will balance your crank very cheaply. It just stops it from vibrating excessively, and allows your engine to run a little more smoothly ...it probably saves wear over the life of the engine, too.... your stuff should last longer.


You'll have to see if they make welded / banded clutch baskets for the PX 125/150 cases. The P200 uses a larger clutch than the PX150. It's just one of those things you upgrade BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO, not because it makes things any better. The only benefit is having to repair your engine less frequently.

[quote="Rover Eric"]T I compare it to living in Florida year round vs. living in Michigan. We have some really sucky winters up here and you just look out the window and pine for riding weather, but it makes you enjoy the warmth of the summer and the abillity to get on your scooter and ride up to the pub all the sweeter. You have to know the bad to appreciate the good, and not take it for granted.


Mate, Thank FCUK your here I don't what to pick a particular quote here. I step softly
I like your stories, We all learn the hard way, Sometimes.

I agree, you seem to appreciate your scooter more if you wrench on it. I did have something to say about bad weather rinding, though i will save that for November.
Cheers

Great. Okay, what's "match the cases / top end?"

Is this matching the port sizings on the larger top end with the crankcase? Is this the same as "porting."

FYI....you do know you need a MC endorsement to ride your pending purchase in the great republik of NJ....?

I ride the LX150 and couldn't be happier. At this point in my riding I'm happy to have the T&G and actually prefer it. If I were in my 20's I wouldn't have been caught dead on this thing!

It's all really about what you will be doing with the scooter.....weekend putzing around on county roads or the need for speed on the twisties?

I'm also totally not a part of the scooter scene, no rallies, major group rides, etc.....

If you need a good place to buy in NJ I recommend
ScootersOriginali ask for Andrea or Gene.

Doug

Yes. Basically it's a combination of a few things, namely enlarging and reshaping the transfer ports on the top end AND on the cases, so that they match ...mate up well, and generally allow for greater flow for that "GULP" of gas / air i mentioned in the last post to make it as efficiently into the combustion chamber of your engine as possible.

Some scoots have 2 ports ..some have 3 ... a T5 has 5 of these ports! To give you an indication as to how import ports and proper porting are to an engine, a T5 ( 125cc ) with 5 transfer ports can keep up with a Stock P200 ...(200cc) with 3 transfer ports.

Thanks!!

I bought my PX kitted out. It has a Pinasco 175 top end, has be ported, has a standard Vespa exhaust without the catalytic converter, has been geared up and has a 26/26 carb.

Is a low end performance exhaust worth putting on? And would it require up-jetting, do you suspect? Seems like the clutch basket would be a wiser investment at this time.

Right now I can cruise at 55 with a top speed of 65.

Wow ..that's a big carb to put on a 175, particularly with the stock pipe.

I dunno... i'd change your pipe first. Either pay the 100 for a Sito Plus, and gain a nice performance gain in your low end ....

or pay the 350 for a PM or JL pipe. Man, when the power band kicks in on those pipes ( which tends to happen in the higher RPM ranges ) it feels like you're being fired from a slingshot.

To me there's no inbetween with exhausts. Everything else is just an overpriced noisemaker that gains you very little performance and just changes the tone or looks shinier. ( Polini, Pinasco, Leo Vinci, Simonini...etc)