OP
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'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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UTC quote
I have tried to figure out a way to clean up the Random tricks, share your best little tips & shortcuts thread because it's so hard to find something useful you might recall seeing there and also it's become cluttered with useless & semi useless stuff to wade thru.

I think I will try to quote the best of Random tricks, share your best little tips & shortcuts here, but in some kind of organized fashion. I can add say ten more posts to this thread, each one having a specific topic like 'Tires & suspension' and 'Fuel System'. I can then quote various scattered posts on that topic in one place and then edit that topic post later to add any new tips, which would still be posted in the old thread at the end as usual instead of here. Look there for fresh meat, look here to find something you need to fix a problem now.

Please avoid posting in this thread until after I get the 8 or 10 additional posts up with each one devoted to a different topic. I would appreciate any suggestions for the 8 or 10 topics which you can post in the old thread to keep this one clean for now. So far I'm thinking:
1. Engines, internal
2. Engines, external
3. Fuel system & carbs
4. Exhaust
5. Suspension, wheels, tires, brakes
6. Fork & headest, cable replacement
7. Frame, bodywork, paint
8. Electrical
9. Seats, accessories, racks
10. Workshop

What else? Go here, please: Random tricks, share your best little tips & shortcuts
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Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Part-time Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
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Molto Verboso
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2005 PX150 In a Part-time Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
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UTC quote
Voodoo,
What the Tips N Trix needs is some kind of subject indexing. Is that possible?
@oopsclunkthud avatar
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UTC quote
Add the good ones to the wiki. edit the first post in the Random Tips... thread to include a link to the wiki
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UTC quote
another option would be to edit the first post in the tips thread to include a linked index to the posts that are useful.
OP
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UTC

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'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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UTC quote
I once tried that w/ help even from Ginch, but I fizzled out. I think I'd like a place where stuff is already sorted into sections anyway... First attempt follows.

If anybody has the hotlinked pics that are now missing in many good posts, please PM them to me & I can edit them back into the posts.

If somebody would like to make an index w/ links and post it there, I can copy it to the first page. That would be good to have as well.

Edit: Partial index now up on 1st page in the original thread. Thank you Ginch Clap emoticon
⚠️ Last edited by V oodoo on UTC; edited 2 times
OP
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'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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@v_oodoo avatar
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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UTC quote
Engines, internal - you've split the case
mr10 wrote:
...

This might interest you guys too, maybe:
Building a PX engine in 185 pics:
http://gallery.vespresso.nl/Vespresso/Referentie/P200-85-Motorblok-Opbouw

...
If you're going to be assembling a motor(especially first time), be sure to check out mr10's HUGE pic set of the process. No words, just lots of great pics! But that's like 185,000 words?

Thanks to oopsclunkthud & flyngti we now have this : 'The correct way to build VBB engine', a full blown factory service manual.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dn5vnn7ro7jrs4g/Vespa_service_manual_1955-1965.pdf
===
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
After years of struggling with heat guns and drifts and hammering and cursing to get my bearings in -- and sometimes damaging things in the process -- I finally, on a whim, tried the bake-your-engine-cases-in-the-oven trick. 30 minutes at 200 C later, I was all ready to go with my hammer and drifts and THOOP! My fly side bearing (which sat overnight in the freezer) just dropped in with a little force from my thumb.

I am a convert. I can't remember the last time a trick like this brought me such joy.

And no, I'm not embarrassed by that last statement. This is frickin' awesome.
===
mr10 wrote:
Heard from an old mechanic they used to use hot plates for warming carters and dropping in bearings back in the day.
===
Ginch wrote:
Vader19 wrote:
These are P200 gears.. all of these pics show the OUTER side of the gear, meaning the side you would see from the engine side of the bike while putting the gears on the shaft.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
All gears Outer faces

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
1st gear Outer face

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
2nd gear Outer face

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
3rd gear Outer face

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
4th gear Outer face
===
Ginch wrote:
Vader19 wrote:
Here are pics at an angle of the INSIDE of each of the 4 gears..
Again, these are the INSIDE faces of the gears, facing Away from you as you put them into the motor.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
1st gear Inside face

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
2nd gear Inside face

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
3rd gear Inside face

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
4th gear Inside face

Thanks to Vader for the pics and effort!
===
Ginch wrote:
Vader19 wrote:
Here's one of my EFL stacks all together... you can see the spacing
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
===
V oodoo wrote:
Just to review so you don't forget something. I found this helpful on my current project, a refurbished GL motor. Thanks, Patrick.
oopsclunkthud wrote:
The blue haynes manual covers these engines very well.

1. both bearings go onto the crank
2. heat the clutch side case till water sizzles (I use a small squeeze bottle to test). before it cools down:
a. install the clutch side oil seal
b. install the crank
c. if you find you need to add more heat after installing the seal, do it from the clutch side and avoid the seal.
3. assemble the rest of the engine, gears... but not the clutch.
4. place the kickstart gear on the layshaft and the case gasket on the clutch side case
5. heat the fly side case till water sizzles. before it cools down:
a. install the clutch flywheel side oil seal (I put a bit of hylomar in the crease of the metal flange of the seal.
b. depress the kickstart lever
c. close the cases, make sure the crank, lay shaft, and final drive all line up with the fly side case.
d. After the case is closed (light taps with a soft hammer) make sure everything turns and then install the 4-5 nuts around the crank area and tighten them snug plus a bit.
e. make sure everything still turns and that the kickstart ratchets correctly, then torque the nuts around the crank
6. install and torque the rest of the case bolts.

There is a lot going on in step 5 in a very short amount of time so think it through and lay everything out.
Hold on now,make sure you remember this plastic thing if it's a P series:

(maybe included in step 3, but don't forget it)
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
===
V oodoo wrote:
Bluecati wrote:
Is there a wee gap already in the cases indicating it has STARTED to move?? DONT force anything in between the halves.If there is no gap then push the kickstart down a bit or rotate the gears/wheel so the cruciform doesn't hold on
The reason it wont separate anymore is usually due to one of the main bearings jamming in the cases or jammed on the crank
I prefer to put hot scalding rags on the cases on the "bubble" behind the stator on the fly side(that s where said bearing is housed.) the cases will heat up and expand faster than the bearing or crank.
the cases will separate and youll either have the crank out with bearing on it.....or with the bearing still in the case half.
I actually boil the rags in a saucepan..lift them out with tongs and then lay it on the cases in a circle . then start gentle tapping with a rubber or copper mallet. Manipulate the entire motor so one case half so its locked solid against something firm.(and soft like wood) then all your little taps will be directed to the bearing and not slowly skidding the engine across the bench.
good luck
youll have it apart in the time it takes to post the tool...which also needs heat anyway.
Ive done close to 20 rebuilds with the rags method...and no special tool
This seems simple, safe for the motor, relatively safe for me & it's proven. Gonna try it soon.
===
V oodoo wrote:
(SoCal, the ketchup bottle w/ valve - that's sweet!)

I've seen this being done, but never done it. Now when I wanna try, I know where to find a nice list of what to do.

Thanks, Gary.
GLscoot wrote:
You can still split the casings with a side stand and the engine still in the scooter, if you are changing the gear cogs or cruciform.

leave scooter in 4th gear
drain engine oil
remove exhaust
remove cylinder & flywheel cover
remove flywheel & stator (mark position of stator) & woodruff key
remove both near side cylinder studs
wiggle barrel up about 20mm
remove gear selector unit, with cables attached, must be in 4th gear
loosen all M7 nuts, don't forget the one thats underneath the oil drain bolt
using the kickstart remove the flywheel side casing, no doubt the kickstart spring & cog will fall out
you will also need to loosen the carb bolts
it can be tricky but can be done & I always do it when I have to change my cruciform.
remember to keep the cogs in the correct order, i use a plastic cable tie for this.
I would replace the engine gasket and cruciform, unless your cruciform is only a few miles old and buy the best one.


External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

If I have forgotten anything please feel free to add.

Gary
===
Sara Alexandra wrote:
I made these at work during lunch break from leftover nylon parts. Bearing dummies. Easy to dry mount everything and check your port timings, transfers and etc...
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
the white ones are in 2 sizes, with bearing bush and without.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Sara
Vader19 wrote:
Sara Alexandra wrote:
I made these at work during lunch break from leftover nylon parts. Bearing dummies.
Sara
You're much handier that I.. I've got a full set from SIP and they are invaluable.. Nice work Sara.. you never cease to amaze.
Sara Alexandra wrote:
N°2 made.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
===
Ginch wrote:
Re: Pre-P cruciform locking washer
SFvsr wrote:
In the event you can't find a quick source for that washer, go to the electrical section of a good hardware store. There will be a section devoted to repairing lamps and electrical stuff. The thinner brassed washers are a perfect fit. Don't use any SAE or metric stuff because the thickness of the washer will shove the selector rod into the wrong distance from the cruciform.
http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/locking++washer+selector+rod+_87601000
===
Ginch wrote:
I know this one has been covered before, but the pic below makes it kind of foolproof. This is a Lusso gearbox but I guess it relates to the others?
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
===
oopsclunkthud wrote:
Ginch wrote:
chandlerman wrote:
Neurotic-Hapi-Snak wrote:
Anyone ever find this? Pretty nice gearing calc, better than the scooterhelp one. In French, but pretty self explanatory.
http://gearingcalc.free.fr/
I think that one's pretty well known, but another link certainly doesn't hurt . I've built something comparable in a spreadsheet for Excel & LibreOffice, too. No pre-sets in mine, but you can save it locally rather than having to re-type custom gearings every time you use it.

Gearing Calculator, Excel
Gearing Calculator, LibreOffice

I'd like to add air resistance/drag calc's so you can estimate necessary power output to actually drive the scoot for a given gearing and speed. Ideally, this would let people estimate whether their gearing is going to be too long for a given motor or how much power they need to tune for with a given gear stack.

Unfortunately, my physics are a little too rusty to do much more than borrow someone else's calc's and build them into my sheets.
Patrick OopsClunkThud did a really nice one shown in his thread. Not sure that he's sharing however. https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2065929#2065929
here's a link to my gearing calculator:

https://www.icloud.com/numbers/000E1AWevFfUX-MPZObG3UoAA#Oops-Gearing

It's not all that user friendly but I've added notes and highlighted the cells that should be modified in green.

as with the squish, save off your own copy if you want to really mess with it, but feel free to adjust numbers to see the impact.
===
Here's a mixed set of videos including some inside the motor stuff
freakmoped wrote:
edit: sorry!
it got a little bit long and i didnt know
that it will show the videos, thought its will be
the links as i am used from other similiar forums


fmp otuning guide

my 2006 otuning guide is in revision, it will become a
otuning & rotary valve guide all tips around the vespa engine in one guide
and also available in english this time

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

youtube FMPguides

i also made some guides over the last years, so called FMPguides
the first one was 3 years ago due to the ongoing myth in the GSF that
blowback is caused by crank timings and 75° is not driveable anymore
it was this one, to show that these online infos are simply wrong.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a few example about regulary discussed problems around vespa service & tuning:



ever wondered how an engine looks like and how long he will survive if you forget the gearbox oil? screwed engine, the answer is 500km:
the 7 si fuel supply tips to be happy
why the cosa fuel chamber cover CAN´t solve the fuel supply issue
its a wrong online info in forums and online shops
beware of some fuel taps, they suck at reserve and even stop completelly at normal:
how2 make a fast flow fuel tap by yourself
the THROTTELED vespa px si air filter issue...
how2 take out the engine in 15min
how2 take out the clutch in 10min
the grabbing clutch reasons
the 2 clutch separation tests
the oldknown problem with the too thin flaps/plates
honda cr80/100 clutch facings for COSA clutch
the new honda px clutch by teninch
the oilsucker problem of all vespa largeframe engines
how2 close an engine focusing on the weak spot of the engine case
avoiding oilsucker
the problem with the really bad crankcases younger than 2001
blowback?
is a defected rotary valve issue, not a crank issue
see defect vs repaired:
polini 218 with long (no blowback) vs polini 177 with shorter timings (blowback!!) cause the rv is defect:
how2 check the rotary valve
good crank bad crank game
second one is a new LML crank

what can happen when the pressfit is too low, shown with a brandnew (!) crank:
how2 measure cylinder timings
how2 set the ignition
px200 otuning fmpimped, how it looks like
make a POLINI177 out of a cheap DR177
to come soon:
x) pnp tuning guide
x) inlet timings guide


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLAYLISTS:

all FMPguides
vespa exhaust soundchecks
blowback issue and solution
fuel supply tips
oilsucker problem & the solution
drive safe! greets from austria
(the one without kangoroos )
and
freakmoped wrote:
Greetz to kheper olivier from paris

Vodoo thank u, u are welcome
I still do have some more storues 2tell
That might be helpful

New one, add to cylinder timings:
Intake tuning measuring marking as promised
Aaand tge f****** annoying warm start issue of px lusso
Is a fault of the too flat airbix lid, did u know?
===
V oodoo wrote:
smallframe motors
oopsclunkthud wrote:
one more thing to note on assembly with a ball bearing on the fly side instead of a two part roller:

you have two options for assembly:
1. put the fly side bearing in the case and use a puller to pull the crank (already installed into the clutch side with most everything else) into the bearing as you close the cases. The puller must fit inside the space where the seal goes so it can support the inner ring of the bearing. there will be a moment where you are tightening the 5 center case bolts slowly, then crank on the puller a bit, then back to the nuts... you don't want to over tighten either one. This can be slow and tedious but is the way I prefer to do it. after the case bolts are tight it's a good idea to heat the fly side of the case to allow the bearing to slip a bit if needed so there is no side load left.

2. Put the fly side bearing on the crank. final closing of the case is done with the fly side case hot. This can be a bit frantic and reheating of the fly side may be needed.

In both options the fly side oil seal is installed after the cases are closed.
===
chandlerman wrote:
sdjohn wrote:
chandlerman wrote:
The SIP crank removal tools works perfectly for pressing the needle bearing race onto the crank if you flip the tube around:

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Chandler is it threading onto the fly side threads, so you can screw it down?
Yes, that's exactly what it's doing. The nut pushes it down, so there is zero stress on the center pin. Chilling the crank helps, but it's by no means necessary. The race was not heated.]
===
Ginch wrote:
Thanks to Sime66 for this very useful info -
sime66 wrote:
For the first question, there is a way without splitting casings, just removing the selector box and measuring the rod:
PX Mk1 (pre-1984) uses a selector rod which is tightened with a 13mm spanner.
PX EFL & T5 (post 1984) uses a selector rod that is tightened with a 17mm spanner.

You can put old P gearbox in new casings (maybe that's what you have) and vice versa (I've put EFL gearboxes in a couple of older casings), but the whole driveshaft, gears (except 2nd) and selector box, need changing; the primaries are the same (some input shafts are different, but the cluster is the same). There's a few other slight differences I've come across, so I'll add some more stuff if I think of it before anyone else beats me to it.

Bottom of page 503 shows the selector box difference:

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/files/catalogue/index.html#/503

Botom of page 493 shows the loose gears diference:

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/files/catalogue/index.html#/493

Top of page 490 shows the driveshaft diference:

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/files/catalogue/index.html#/491

(Mk1 has a shoulder one end and a circlip the other, and EFL has the two circlips).

Then, there's the different crux and extra washer, which you know about; there's a difference with bearing/seal (size and whether internal or external) at the other end of that shaft too, but it's all do-able once you know what combination you have:

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/files/catalogue/index.html#/167

Dictated by casings, not crank; the clutchside crankshaft oil seal material is different for EFL too - there's a groove in older casings, so you can't use the EFL metal seal. The circlips round the main bearing are different too, but I think the bearing is the same.

To get specific over the small differences, you have to note three types of 'P' casing and gearbox:
Early 'P' (pre-PX)
Early 'PX' (pre EFL)
PX EFL
===
kyvelis wrote:
went the other way the other week, rebuilt a mates p200 motor and used freeze spray (didn't have any liquid nitrogen to hand) the type that removes chewing gum etc, when its finished boiling, co-efficient of expansion, etc blah, bearings come out easy with cases at room temp, and bearings go in easy at room temp, froze the crank and that bastard inner race went in with no bother. there was was a 90 to 110 degree (c) differential between bearings, races. cases at +30 to +40, bearings, crank at -50 ish. so alternate to oven.
===
Ginch wrote:
Blind Bearing Pusher
and
autojack wrote:
I just recently saw something similar which blew my fucking mind:
It left me wishing for some poor sap to bring me a part like that, hat in hand, and ask how to get the bearing out. Just so I could cast a wary, seasoned eye over it, and then get out my drill bits and some grease.

Start at 4:50 to get to the good bit.
===
Ginch wrote:
This is one of my least favourite jobs... no matter how long the crank has been in the freezer and how hot the inner race is, it always seems to get stuck. Using this method - with an assortment of bits from the scrap metal box - it went on cold using this method. I don't have a puller to get it off again but it's on the list!

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