Modern Vespa

I'd imagine you need this.. or one off an old flywheel..
https://www.scooterwest.com/electric-starter-ring-gear-for-flywheel-vespa-p200-199249-rg.html (only place I can find this part).

and do it this way:
But seeing as the vape flywheel does not have a slot for that ring gear, you would have to potentially take it to a machinist to mill out a slot for it that allows it to mount and sit at the right distance.

If you do attempt this.. please do post your process on a thread somewhere. I am really interested in seeing this take shape!

First off, i suppose it would be best to find out what the OD is on a E start PX flywheel (at where the ring is pressed on). Next would be find out how far that portion of the Vape flywheel is away from the Stella case, when compared to how far the stock Stella's flywheel ring gear is from the case. I've pressed a PX ring gear on a PX flywheel before. It wasn't to difficult. I put the flywheel in the freezer for a few hours, and heated up the ring gear with a torch. It went together easily. I did it about 6 years ago, and it's still in use today.

Too bad SIP doesn't also have a Vape install video of one of their DC kits. This video is for their AC version. www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxV7ZQol97o

Chandlerman - I have this set up going on my current build.
Wonder the following from your experience - or others.

My plan was to home run everything to a switched distribution board that is powered by the battery - sits in trunk of my sidecar. Recharge power would come from my DC regulator straight to battery.

So regulator charges battery - but doesn't directly run anything.

Looks like you might be running some of your "appliances" direct off your DC regulator?

Kick start.

Based on your experience, Any comments on my planned set up good or bad?

Looking at the diagram I read the red => grey from the reg supplies the 12v while running. As to how the battery supplies when needed and charge gets back to the battery I assume it is via the ignition.

But the diagram is a little confusing because of the starter relay TO THE STARTER MOTOR. Sigh.

Yes the ring is removeable, probably with heat. My removal technique usually involves not particularly careful removal with an angle grinder.

Catching up a bit since I have a little slack time this morning, If you think about a DC system, the load is going to flow to wherever the voltage is dropping. If you look at the wiring diagram, assuming you have the battery as part of the overall DC system, it will either absorb or augment any load beyond what the other parts of the system are consuming. All the regulator is doing is trying to maintain a steady 13.7v across the overall system.

So if you have more draw than the stator can support, e.g. you're me running a 110W hi beam with a 40W light bar, the stator will be putting out all the current it can, then the battery will be picking up the rest of the load until it runs out of juice. Conversely, if the load is less than the system requires, the battery will absorb excess current until its voltage matches that of the regulator's output, meaning it's fully charged.

As to e-start, it's drawing off the battery, but the amount is normally a tiny draw, unless you're having trouble getting started and grinding the starter. The battery will recharge from that burst of draw for a normal start in just a few minutes.

As to the starter ring, I think that you could fit one, but, as others have noted, you'd need to have a groove machined into the flywheel for it and figure out the exact spacing.

In my original installation pictures, I still had the starter motor installed, but that was because I'd been running a Pinasco FlyTech with the starter ring on it. I ditched that because I was sick of the CDI failing, which could only be ordered as an individual part from one site in Italy and the shipping cost more than the part. I now just have a cover plate on there.

Thanks for the clarification CM!

Read through again from start to end.
Have the DC variable VAPE going on my build.
Wiring seems fairly straightforward now that you explained.

Rumor mill has it (I being said mill) that SIP are planning a new CDI that will provide both touring options & race ones in the future.
Cool - but that won't be for a bit yet.
Could use some help setting up my likely starting point for current build - and sorting out trade offs.

I want to run cool of course - and keep the holes in my piston to only the ones I recklessly cut myself.
So knowing my driving style... here is what I suspect it would look like:

Max RPM (guess): 10K (-9°)
Frequently hit RPM before shifting: 8,500 (-7.5°)
Cruising speed: 5,500 - 6,500 (-4.5)
Occasional lugging around when just pottering about to get milk or coffee: 4000 (+1)

Questions:
1. Anyone care to opine on where my safe - and where would my more "sporty"- timings be set around 1000 to 1200 rpm idle?
2. It appears the CDI is at -2° already at 1000 rpm - then it retards, then it advances. Anyone wanna take a shot at why it does that? Head scratcher for me.

Tks!
-CM

Just for reference polini makes a very nice electric start kit

My current thinking on setting timing is to base it on the cyliner's recommended timing being accurate at peak power, so around 7,000-7,500 RPM's. When you're at lower RPM's, so long as your jetting is good, you'll be cooler and it won't be an issue.

How many CDI's have gone bad on you Chandlerman? I'm pondering this for my smallframe - Scooter Center has been out of stock on the smallframe large taper BGM system for many weeks now. I'm debating the coolness of this vs. the easy ability to find Ducati CDI's and standard pickups that I'd get with that system....

Thanks.

Good and simple rule of thumb.
If I got it right - would look something like this:

So if cylinder called for 18°BTDC, and VAPE retards 6° at 7300 RPM, then I would set idle timing at 24°.

If I get a little trigger happy with the throttle - hey - it happens - and find my way to say 9500 RPM, timing would advance to about ~15°.

Did I get that mostly right?
Much appreciated CM!

timing would retard to 15 degrees. 15 is later (closer to TDC) than 24. Just wanted to clarify.

I may be wrong, but this is how I understood it as well, to figure out your cruising RPM then take the timing offset from the SIP curve at that RPM to adjust the cylinder appropriate timing to the correct timing at idle. So 18 degrees is your cruising performance timing at 7300. 24 degrees is your idle time and 15 and lower are your over rev times. Someone with more information can probably confirm or deny this thinking.

I've been running the SIP sport (variable timing) setup on both my Sprint and my Stella for one and almost two years respectively.

I had one CDI fail, but it was mostly just rotted wiring on the first CDI. Overall, I'm very happy with them, though.

Hi all -- would just like to jump back in here, years after I started looking into it, and see if anybody has some specific advice about what to do with converting a batteryless AC Vespa PX to an all-DC PX. One that I can run a bright LED headlight, LED turn signals, and a proper loud horn on. Used to be that before this Vape dealy came out, the only option seemed to be to wire in a rectifier on your own, and add a battery. But now there's this, which seems a whole lot more straightforward. Which is good because electrics are by far my weakest suit.

Much of this has all been touched on in other threads, but here goes anyway:

1. To get the all-DC VAPE ignition working, would I need to buy a new wiring harness to replace my AC one I installed years ago?

2. If a new wiring harness is not absolutely necessary, I'd still imagine there'd be a ton of re-jiggering of the existing one. A great deal of soldering and insulating and such. Or would it be relatively straightforward?

3. What about the turn signal apparatus that bizarrely seems to be every bit as much of a hub in the wiring system as does the connector block behind the horncover? Would that have to change?

4. Would I need to add a battery?

5. To keep the SIP speedo showing RPMs, I'd need to either get this Koso "Rev Signal Filter" or run a wire from the brown wire on the CDI to the appropriate wire in the headset connected to the SIP speedo. Right?

6. Would the throttle-side control switch (with the horn button) need to change, if it's presently activating the A/C duck fart horn and I'd want it to activate a DC horn?

Thanks in advance for any advice you might have!

The only bit I can help with (have run all DC for years now but not on a P)... and the answer is no. It's just as happy to supply DC with or without a battery in the system.
Interestingly the Vape DC regulator happily supplied DC from a Piaggio (floated) stator when I managed to damage the Vape one

No new harness needed. Copper doesn't care how you push the electrons through it. Probably less than you think. The circuits aren't changing, just whether it's AC or DC. You'll feed regulated DC into it where you feed it regulated AC today. If you have a regulator/rectifier, you'll need to bond the old AC & DC circuits together, but that's trivial. You'll need to get a new flasher unit, but you'd need that for LED bulbs anyway. Just get one with the same # of terminals (2 or 3) and you'll be fine. As noted above, not unless you want things to work when the motor isn't running. This I don't know about, but that seems legit. The switch won't need to change, but you'll need to get a DC horn. If you want to post a link to or copy of your wiring diagram, I can probably mark it up so you can see how little will be involved.

The battery will help you keep lights bright at idle, where stator output is usually too low to keep a bright headlight

Thanks for the replies everyone. Lots of good news in there.

sdjohn -- my fantasy here is that an all-LED electrical situation throughout the bike, combined with the increased output from the Vape stator, would lead to no big drop in brightness at idle. But I guess there's only one way to find out.

Of course, honking the horn would probably dim the lights a fair deal. But that's no biggie.

It'll be fine without the battery, I think. I've managed to blow the fuse to the battery a few times and had no issues running without it. The headlight gets a little flickery/strobe-y, but that's about it.

Jim,
I'll defer to Chandlreman's far superior knowledge on this.
He was the trailblazer on the Vape DC.
One mention: on the AC system you have now, both the brake switch on the floor, and the horn button on handlebar, are both set to be closed at rest - taking the power to a ground. When you press the button or step on the peddle it opens the circuit and removes the ground. That sends power to horn or brake light respectively.

Their is a DC switch that replaces the floor one (do urself a favor and epoxy the wires in - soldering is nearly impossible) and there is a slight difference to the handlebar switch too. A bit of careful bending of tabs can convert your existing switch to only close the circuit (complete the circuit) when the button is pushed rather then being completed only UNTIL the button is pushed

Chandler man can correct above if I have missed on anything.

Just thought I'd add this here.. FMP suggests that variable ignition is not actually providing more power for street usage. Not sure if he is limiting it to PNP or highly tuned engines, but he is testing it on a M244 quattrini.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WmuDy0nDeI

Also a bit of a lively discussion around it on his facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Ffreakmoped%2Fposts%2F2562987633809363&width=500

Interesting. I would have thought it depends on the particular ignition - eg where the timing is sitting at a certain rpm whether or not it makes more power. Clearly there must be a trade-off in both types of ignition.
What's not discussed is ease of starting with variable, or cylinder temperature. When I first fitted the Kytronic a few years back I immediately saw lower temps.

Second half of the video - cruising uphill in 4th - anyone care to draw any conclusion? I didn't understand what it was meant to demonstrate.

The discussion is also classic FMP... when one guy suggests that the dyno chart is showing irrelevant information, and that the GSF dyno could extract acceleration data (surely the whole point of the video), he dismisses it and says it doesn't matter. He says he's not interested in the WHY, only the result. And wants to move on to the next topic. It's a half-arsed approach disguised as an impartial test. FMP told me he doesn't use the GSF dyno any more, my assumption is because he can't be bothered. As he says "the butt dyno tells him".

I found that very interesting he suggested gsf Dyno doesn't matter much when he has made quite a few videos very recently using and pointing out the usefulness of gsf Dyno. I have messaged him a few times and he always responded with helpful but confusing (to me) answers. I think things get lost in translation or online as his syntax seems disjointed to me, so I chalk it up to that. Regardless, his videos are very helpful and I think the gist of his arguments are good in that there is a lot of confusion around many of these topics and it doesn't hurt to question why some parts and setups are used over others.

As for the variable, I think I'm understanding what people here and on his posts about it are suggesting, it really helps with temps and lower rpms, not so much meant to increase power output at the top end.

He says it doesn't matter to find out why - but yes he uses dyno charts all the time to prove his point. None are his though - they're all borrowed from the GSF etc. He often gets criticised on the GSF because people don't know what he means. Yes his videos can be useful but I do find it frustrating sometimes that obvious questions are not answered. A bit like Myth Busters!

I think if cars and full size motorcycle internal combustion engines benefit from a properly setup ignition with timing that advances and retards so would a scooter. If you are not getting a benefit from the ignition I would say your setup is incorrect. A Kytronic for instance will retard timing to the baseline you normally use at a higher rpm so you should at a minimum be using the same timing as stock for a wide open throttle speed run.

Even mounting the CDI was a mission. The original mount had it 90deg out and hitting the starter motor. Love how the instructions are something like "mount the CDI with an appropriate mount"...

Trying to figure out if I can mount the starter ring gear on the flywheel. Not a lot of realestate to work with.

After an unforseen fitment issue with trying to install the stock LML flywheel with autostart gear on my new 60mm crankshaft, I realized I need to install this SIP Vape kit instead. autostart gear on the old flywheel contacting cases now and crankshaft wont rotate.

So I've installed the vape stator plate and flywheel which rotates freely when torqued down. Setting up the ignition timing was pretty straightforward using SIP's instructions/video instructions. The T mark on the magnetic ring of their flywheel is used to figure out the timing. I have been mulling over the proper way to set ignition timing with variable ignition for months on here and in my head. I've decided I am making it more complicated in my mind and their instructions lay it out pretty easily once you get everything in front of you.

Since there is a T mark on the magnetic ring on the flywheel, when you set your timing using their instructions, your timing when you set that mark on the magnetic ring to the T on the stator plate equals your ignition timing.. and on the variable timing graph in the instructions and posted here.. the dotted line at the top labeled "timing" is this number. Knowing my kit is supposed to be set to 18 degrees, I am being slightly cautious in initial setup, so I set mine to 17 degrees at that "timing" mark. Which means that at idle, I will be at 15.5 degrees, between 3500-4,000 rpm, I will be at 17.7 degrees, and at cruising rpm of around 6500 I will be at 12.5 degrees. Once it runs and I can check it at idle and those other rpms, I can creep it back up to 18 if needed.

Regarding the electrical conversion on stella from AC to DC, I am taking it ultra slow cause I got nothing else to do which would make me rush. So today I just took a look at the wiring on the engine side and compared the old ignition to new to understand exactly what goes where on engine side.

I am posting images with descriptions of what goes where below. Tomorrow I will set these connections up, then make my way over to the battery side and start pulling wires out to try to line them up with chandlerman's initial dc conversion setup posted at the start of this topic.

Yes I found that out too! Wish they made it clearer in their blurb. Nice write up Swiss.

I just found the original manufacturer wiring diagram for the vape dc rectifier, and noticed some slight differences between their diagram and the sip one which is the same product.

vape lists both wires coming from magneto across bike to battery side as black. SIP has converted one of those to blue. On my stella, this becomes yellow as the blue wire connects to yellow in the plastic junction box on the engine.

The vape dc rectifier then has two black wires connecting to both of those wires. There is nothing on the actual rectifier to signify what the difference is between them as I think they are treated equally, but I am curious what the difference is as sip has turned the other end coming from magneto one to blue and one staying black which tells me there is some difference in terms of what the magneto is sending.

The other main difference is the sip diagram shows a 15amp fuse inline between the rectifier red wire and battery positive with that red wire splitting off at the rectifier end to feed into the bikes power appliance line. The vape diagram shows the red wire from battery positive connecting directly to the dc rectifier red wire, and a separate red wire connecting to ignition lock with that 15amp fuse inline. SIPs limits 15amp to the rectifier where vape has no limit to rectifier. I'm assuming this is inconsequential. My reason for wondering about this is on the stella existing wiring as done by chandlerman early on in this thread, we tap into the orange wire after the fuse to connect to the rectifier red wire (because the orange wire is the ignition lock/power appliance line). One main difference is that the stella uses an 8amp fuse instead of a 15 amp fuse. I am wondering if that drastically smaller 8amp fuse inline between the dc rectifier and battery positive will alter or affect the rectifier's performance in any way?

Original vape wiring diagram included.. along with the link to chandlerman's originally uploaded sip diagram.

http://members.modernvespa.net/chandlerman/uploads/sip_ignition_installation_guide_pp3_4_54811.pdf

actually.. i just found a more detailed document from vape that explains exactly the question of blue/black wires from magneto into the double black connector on dc rectifier.

Those are both ac input coming from alternator.. I'm assuming they are the two poles of the alternating current feeding into the rectifier, which then comes out through the red wire on the rectifier which then goes either to the power appliance line down into the bike, or to the battery positive to charge the battery. Now there are essentially two grounding points on the dc rectifier.. one from the brown wire which on the wiring diagram connects to battery negative, and one to chassis which exists as a spade connector directly on the rectifier housing.

full pdf from vape attached, but also posting a jpg of just the one page detailing this magneto/rectifier wire differences.

So with all that said.. I believe my wiring conversion following chandlerman's updated diagram early on is as follows:

blue and black from vape magneto/stator to black/black connector on the rectifier (by way of yellow and black wires coming through frame from junction box on engine). red on rectifier to orange on stella.. but I add a jumper wire tapped into the orange to the fuse coming out of the battery positive so that it can charge the battery or get power from the battery. Brown from rectifier gets a new wire fed and tapped to the battery negative. spade connector on rectifier, I use the ring connector I will cut off from the original stella black wire coming from the engine junction box where it currently splits off from. then the spade connector is now grounding rectifier to frame separate from the ac wires from magneto. Finally, the violet and gray wires removed from the original stella ac regulator will get joined together to complete the two separate circuits of ac and dc in the power appliance line existing on the bike.

pictures attached.

Considering that the output of the Vape is stated as 110 watts total, at 13.2 volts that's 8.3 amps, and less as the voltage rises... and not all of that power is going to the battery. So it might be ok but worth going bigger just in case I would have thought.

Nice find Swiss!

Don't think you saw this - Vape switchable ignition curves - not available through SIP as yet but guess it's only a matter of time.

I am assuming you are getting 13.2 volts from the output of the battery? I'm terrible at electrical so I feel dumb when discussing it. I went out in garage today before work to quickly take a look and noticed that someone had replaced my 8amp fuse in the holder inline to the battery positive with a 20 amp 32 volt 3ag fuse. So the fuse inline is 20amp. I also broke the fuse holder as the plastic is brittle and old so I now need to replace it. Any reason to switch to the typical car fuse styles with a single fuse holder like this over the current sealed glass fuse?
https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-Amp-Mini-Blade-Fuse/dp/B0024JT6XM

I did see that thread originally but didn't really get into it as I am not ready to contemplate the concept of choosing my own variable ignition curves, but from the looks of the kit, it seems like that box is a cdi wired inline in the same way the stella's stock cdi is wired, but if it has an ignition curve in the current ht coil then how does wiring that cdi inline override the existing curve?

I'd definitely convert over to an automotive blade fuse! That's how the later PX's left the factory (with the standard size blade fuse though).

I decided to do that before seeing this as I couldn't find the original style holder just the modern style. I also replaced it with 15amp fuse.

I finished the dc conversion wiring on the battery side and 3 things:

1.) it works. lights come on with ignition key in on position.

2.) the blinkers are crazy now.. which is unexpected as I had already switched the blinker relay for an LED one.. I assumed that would be compatible with straight dc signal. I'll have to look into figuring out the correct one and replacing it.

3.) my main concern... there is a loud buzzing sound as soon as i turn the ignition on that never stops. Something probably in the original ac line doesn't like the dc signal. I am not exactly sure what it is that is making the noise. I don't think that it is the blinker speaker as that makes its own noise at the front of the scoot, the buzzing sound comes from the back near the engine.

video of sound
https://youtu.be/emuZOthsZ-w

My best guess on what is making the noise are the cut out relay, the new vape ht coil, the flasher unit, flasher buzzer? The only other thing I can think of in that area is the newly installed fuel tap with reserve warning light which is connected to the original dc line so it shouldn't be affected by the transition to dc. Not sure which. I have removed the starter motor so currently the cut out relay has 4 wires connected to it, 1 of which are not connected to anything on the engine side as it was connected to the starter motor. blue was the starter motor to cut out relay, red/orange to fuse and the dc regulator/battery, brown to start push button and pink to what looks like the prd relay in headset.

Wiring diagram from original ac on stella and chandlermans new dc conversion diagram which I followed and wired same.

Posting the full process leading up to this point on my thread as to not clutter this thread with my need for providing way too many photos of minor steps in the process.

When you hear that sound, get to high ground!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhgb6uENaes

my thought exactly. I was like "oh f...." I hate electrical!

This bit is actually easy - SIP says the Vape puts out 110 watts. All you do is divide the watts by the voltage, and that gives you the amps that are flowing through a given wire or device.
Without going into it too far, 13.2 volts is I guess the lowest useful voltage the stator puts out. If it isn't higher than 12 volts it won't flow into the battery. Sometimes it will go as high as 16, depending on the situation.

That sound you hear might be the stator! Ages ago I was getting sick of starting it up to check that my work on the lights was actually doing something, so I hooked up a battery from the car to the electrical system... congratulated myself on such a clever idea.
Except when I did, the stator buzzed loudly! I guess it may have been energising the coils and creating some sort of magnetism? Not sure exactly but that was definitely where it was coming from.
The sound was not as high pitched as yours but then it was a different stator.