Modern Vespa

I was checking a few scooter west videos and noticed a video why you should flush your coolant https://youtu.be/z5meCvGTsP4 There are some steel parts (freeze plug). The rust inhibitor chemicals will lose there effectiveness. The video says that the coolant should be changed every two years. My scooter is 5 years old.

Recently I brought the scooter to my local dealer for the 2000 mile service and they did not change the coolant. I am the third owner and I am sure that it is the original coolant.

So I just ordered the parts (from ScooterWest) and this will be my first attempt at scooter maintenance.

That's great you are doing this! It's pretty easy to do. What engine coolant are you going to use?

I've learned that (usually) if I ask the shop to do a "X-mile service," they go by mileage items. Engine and gear oil are mileage related...brake fluid and coolant are time related. If you don't know the age of your brake fluid, might be a good idea to change that or get it changed next.

Another '13 GTS!!

Robot's videos are amazing. If you haven't discovered him yet, another great how-to source is MicBergsma on YouTube. Those two people's videos gave me the confidence to wrench on my own scooter, at least as much as I'm willing to do.

Awesome. Replacing the coolant is straight forward. You will be better of if you replace the hose clamps on the coolant hoses with the worm gear clamps I believe the hose is 30 mm, you can pick them up at Homedepot etc for a few bucks.
Also if you choose to not loosen the hoses to drain and instead open the water pump, be careful the 3 screws can be a pain in the butt as at times the head strips, may have to use some lubricant to loosen them. I had one stubborn screw and nearly stripped the head off, had to use a manual hand impact tool to break the screw loose.
Seems like you have found all the how to videos and MV members have already chimed in, should be smooth for the most part.
Enjoy.

When new they come from the factory with Ethylene Glycol OAT coolant/antifreeze. It's normally red/pink in colour. At least they do over here in 'urop'. Should be the same over there too. I had one of my underfloor factory one time use hose clamps let go causing a small leak. I replaced it with the worm drive type as suggested above. Easy to do, although you do have to take off a few bits from the bike to get the floor up. Not hard if you watch Robots videos at Scooterwest (on YouTube).

I'm glad you posted this!!! Our Vespas have only been with us for a month and mine came with its 3000 mile service paperwork and had gone almost 800 miles since so I figured it was good to go. My husband's had twice the miles and no records so we had already checked his and found all was well.

Last week I looked at Gigi's oil as part of my monthly check of all the motos and discovered her oil to be below the low mark. I topped 'er off and made a note to check the other fluids soon. Of course, being a mom of three under the age of 15, I'm a touch busy so I forgot.

Well, she was well below "low" and I didn't have any coolant, proper or otherwise, so I put almost half a litre of distilled water until I can get what's needed. Needless to say, she won't be going far 'til all is made right in her world.

BTW his is a '12, mine is a '13 and I'd bet neither have had the brakes or coolant fluids flushed. If anyone has a line on these fluids (brand/model) and a decent price in the US, I'd be grateful for the recommendations.

eh the worm gear will do in a pinch but spring clamps will work better. Only caveat is you need the correct tool for them.

what coolant should one use?
My Honda Deauville requires silicate free coolant as the waterpump seal gets wrecked by silicates. What's the story with a Vespa GTS250?

When changing the coolant it is most important that you bleed the air out of the system as described in the workshop manual. If you haven't already done so I strongly suggest that you go to the manuals section of the Wiki and follow the link to Jim's excellent server to get the appropriate manual.

The hoses under the floor take 18-25mm worm drive clamps. You can go slightly bigger ie: 22-28mm but the hose is 25mm so don't go too big or it won't clamp properly. The beauty of using worm drive clamps is you can change them out without having to drain down the engine coolant and remove the pipe to fit the clamp. This means if you have a slight weep from a connection you can cure it pretty easily. Of course if you want to go to the spring clamp type you can do so but must remove the hose to fit them. No special tools required. Most techs will not use the spring clamp type is higher pressure situations but they are good on small hoses.

I've been trying to decide what to use for my own coolant change....from MV poking around, seems like Havoline X-life (Chevron is the same it seems), or Prestone Dex-Cool should do the job and aren't that expensive.

Of course if you're a purist you can go for the 'official' stuff....

I believe it's the same for Vespas and I read that Honda's coolant will do fine in the Italians. Double check this as it's second-hand info for safety purposes.

Any Dex-Cool product will work fine in our scoots because there is no air in the top of the radiator(s). The air in the top of the pressurized plastic tank is ok. When Dex-Cool mixes with air in the top of the radiator(s), it forms a sludge that can plug the system. That's why I have used it in the GTS for 9 years, but I wouldn't use it in a car with an older overflow system where the radiator cap allows air to be sucked into the system during the cool-down phase. Original car radiator caps were fine, but non-original replacement caps caused many problems.

Dex-Cool is good for five years in Cadillacs and Corvettes, but the Europeans want us to change coolant every two years due to (they say) deterioration of plastic components. Your choice. (Are there any plastic components in a scooter cooling system?)

Cheers,
Bob

Thanks, I just want to go down to my local auto parts store and walk out with what is needed rather than special order overpriced speciality supplies. The name on the container doesn't matter but the quality inside does. I did some poking too and found the same, although finding a consensus seems nearly impossible on these kinds of threads.

Another clamp suggestion. "German" clamps are a better choice, won't cut the hose. Source at your local BMW.

I've been using this in my commuter for 3 years.

Check your owners manual but here in the UK the factory spec is for ethylene glycol OAT coolant/antifreeze and if that is still what's in your GTS then change it out with any brand that is the same type. If it's clean when it comes out a single flush should be all that's needed before a refill. If you are not sure what's currently in it flush several times to remove all traces of the old stuff. Don't use anything with IAT (inorganic acid technology) or anything with NAPS (nitrite, amine, phosphate silicate) or borax in it. There are some Silicate Organic Acid Technology (SOAT) additives in some coolants/antifreeze so don't get mixed up and use that by mistake as it makes a mess of the engine. Honda had some serious engine problems on some of their scooters and bikes because they used antifreeze coolant with silicates in just a couple of years ago. So ultra care must be taken to choose the right stuff.

I use Comma Ethylene Glycol OAT Coolant/Antifreeze. I buy the concentrate as it cheaper. It meets the standard required for our Vespas. I use de-ionised water to flush my bike and mix with the coolant concentrate. It's better than distilled water and is almost completely free of contaminates unlike distilled. Although there isn't much between the two. Don't know if Comma is available in the states but here it is in the link below...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-SLA1L-Antifreeze-Coolant-Concentrated/dp/B0055N8I4W#productDetails

One last thing. Although OAT coolant has a claimed 5 year life DO NOT leave it in your Vespa for that amount of time. The manufacturer of your bike says to change it every two years for good reason. That reason is the fact that the OAT additives will deplete themselves in that time due to the constant corrosive attack the cast iron cylinder comes under. That's unlike in a purely alloy engine where OAT can safely stay in for the full 5 years!

Stromrider, are you saying that the iron cylinder in a Vespa engine is not actually a liner in an aluminum casting, but is a cylinder wall that comes in contact with the antifreeze? I haven't looked so I don't know.

Cheers,
Bob

I just answered my own question. It's a shiny black cast iron cylinder block between an aluminum head and crankcase. A magnet sticks really well to it.

Time to change the Dex-Cool.

Cheers and thanks,
Bob

Hi Bob, yes, you got it right! If not for that cast iron block we could go 5 years with the same stuff in. My Burgman was an all alloy motor and could do just that.

Where do you come up with this stuff? There is nothing inherently different about a motorcycle or scooter engine that requires you to change the coolant every two years. the manufacturer of your bike says to change it every two years so they can sell you more coolant and the labor to change it. There is nothing in coolant that wears out or gets all used up.
Many cars have cast iron engine blocks, and I don't know anybody who ever drank the koolaid and changed the coolant in their car every two years. And nothing bad happened. Is the cast iron in cars magical, so it's not affected by the same bad juju that affects the cast iron in Vespa engines?
Yes, it's relatively easy to do, and yes, it is totally unnecessary to do it. Knock yourself out, but don't invent reasons you need to do it or your Vespa is going to die.

Hello Motovista, You're in the trade and you don't know this stuff?

Strongly suggest you do some basic technical research on 'antifreeze' types (there are many with totally different properties) and how they work. You will then I'm sure, understand why some manufacturers specify the coolant is changed every two years. And to be clear, THEY MUST specify it's changed every two years on our Vespas otherwise you get stories like we see on this forum every day with someone telling us their coolant has gone rusty! It's not just that of course, but the water pump doesn't get lubricated properly either because of insufficient additives. It only goes rusty in engines with a cast iron component in them due to OAT depletion after 2 years (yes, I know it may still be clear of rust at 3 years but it's depleted and will rust soon). The 2 year change period is almost extinct on new bikes over here due to cast iron not being used in most engines. The japanese bikes all go 5 years now, but that's a recent thing over here. I never ever specified cast iron in any engine I designed. I would add that here in 'urop' most modern cars don't use cast iron in their engines so often have an antifreeze type that will go 10 years or nearly the lifetime of the car. Cars with cast iron engines using OAT antifreeze do normally require a coolant change every two years and you've no doubt seen the mess that comes out of them if it goes a lot longer. But these days most car engines that use cast iron components use an antifreeze type that is designed to go longer than two years, sometimes 3 years and in very rare cases, upto 5 years. Toyota had a coolant that was not mixed with water and that was a lifetime coolant that could be used with cast iron engines. At the time that failed and they reverted to a different type.

Hi Stromrider, Can you tell me what the dilution ratio is for using the Comma SLA1L concentrate with de-ionised water for use with the gts 300?

Thanks,

Andrew

If you use an antifreeze that needs deluted, the book says 50/50...I cheated and bought mine that way.... and I did replace the factory clamp with worm gear, and I did not need to do any bleeding. I was doing other service work on the bike, it got bumped, rocked and burped, a bit more antifreeze added to the little tank, and a bit more work, and check that tank level and add a bit...and ended with a trip up to the gas station and back, and check and add a smidge more. An easy job and for the price of a hose clamp and the new antifreeze, it's very affordable in my book, maintenance pays off when you want to keep that ride and actually ride it...

I just had the coolant replaced in mine - it was 4 years old - by the local Piaggio/Vespa dealer along with an annual state inspection... I'll probably do it about every 4 years...

Hi Touring300, yes as maggiegirl says, a 50/50 mix is the usual to go for. It offers best protection from overheating and freezing, but best of all it offers great lubricity for the main water pump seal making that last longer.

OR...if you do it at two years your water pump (and everything else) will last much longer due to the better lubrication and corrosion fighting ability the new coolant will provide. The old stuff in your system starts to degrade in our GTS bikes after two years and become more acidic. The additives in the coolant are becoming used up due to fighting corrosion inside the engine, particularly in the cast iron cylinder where it attacks corrosion at source continually. That's how OAT type antifreeze works. At two and a half years old it is probably less that 50% effective at lubing and preventing corrosion in our bikes. You can test this by using a coolant test kit which shows the acidity of the coolant. In my experience with our GTS bikes (or any bike with cast iron engine components in the cooling system) the kits often show most OAT is going bad at that point and sometimes it's very bad. Depends on mileage too as well as time, but mostly it's a time based thing. Just saying....enjoy your bike!

Just noticed you have the BV350. It doesn't have a cast iron cylinder. I don't know what Piaggio says about length of service regarding coolant. It may still be every two years because they contain so little of it or it could be longer.

You know, as I *just* had this done, the service manager at my local Piaggio/Vespa dealer said the coolant in my bike needed to be changed only "every 4-5 years", which is why I was thinking '4' would be sufficient. Seeing Stromrider's comment made me wade through the owner's manual (a pain to try to read) and indeed, in the table of maintenance, it says coolant should be changed every 2 years - I'll have to up my game on that part of the maintenance schedule...

That's interesting Nautiker. I just edited my earlier post concerning the fact you have the BV rather than the GTS. But it doesn't surprise me that the manual says 2 years. It's mostly because the bike carries so little coolant and it gets worked hard. My Burgman 400 goes 5 years without a coolant change because the engine carrieds quite a lot of coolant and it has no cast iron anywhere in it.

The Beverly 350 rots out the core / freeze plugs if coolant not changed on time.

Ah yes indeed! Worth remembering super-fly.

[quote="baba12"] Awesome. Replacing the coolant is straight forward. You will be better of if you replace the hose clamps on the coolant hoses with the worm gear clamps I believe the hose is 30 mm, you can pick them up at Homedepot etc for a few bucks.
Also if you choose to not loosen the hoses to drain and instead open the water pump, be careful the 3 screws can be a pain in the butt as at times the head strips, may have to use some lubricant to loosen them. I had one stubborn screw and nearly stripped the head off, had to use a manual hand impact tool to break the screw loose.



Wise words indeed. I almost made this mistake. As can be seen, the black screw in the middle of the picture is the uppermost water pump cover screw and is the one that can easily be stripped. It is immediately below the fuel tank and needs a no: 2 phillips head screwdriver to undo it. Keep the shaft of the screwdriver straight when cracking the screw lose. If your screwdriver is angled even slightly out of alignment with the screw head, you will strip the head. I tried releasing it with a universal screwdriver with interchangeable bits and almost completely rounded the head of the screw because of the thicker shaft of the screwdriver precluded me from properly aligning with the head of the screw. A cautionary tale!