Modern Vespa

Here it is again, the stuck swing arm problem that arises when one tries to remove the rear tire. I'm trying to remove the tire on my 2015 GTS and the swingarm won't budge; it's like it is welded to the axle. I tried many of the ideas mention on the forum including various lubricants, banging the shaft with a mallet and pulling, prying, a three jaw puller, and YES... The Scooterwest swingarm puller tool. Nothing has worked. In fact, the Scooterwest swingarm puller tool bent, and a screw actually broke off while inserted in the bracket (luckily, I was able to get it out)! So, what is next? I already have a new bearing, and one thread mentioned drilling out the old bearing. Would that work? How would I go about drilling out the bearing (what size/ material drill bit)? Other ideas? Thanks.

Tried a 50/50 mixture of acetone and ATF? Or the best penetrating fluid you can find?

Edit: Kano Kroil gets good review. If you can't find any acetone.

Maybe there should be a sticky/Wiki about getting a new/"new to you" GTS and taking off the swing arm/bearing support and putting a finger's worth of anti-seize compound on the shaft.

"A stitch in time saves nine"

Probably not a good idea to drill the bearing off. It's likely hardened. And you will end up still dealing with the stuck inner race on the shaft. Better to soak the stuck bearing with penetrating oil and wait. Spray it every 24 hours for 3 days then repair the scooterwest tool and try it again. Patience is the best resource. I dreaded rear tire changes on my GTS...

Bill

Please post updates

Worth a try:
A pickle fork, plastic bottle (if you care about the paint on your wheel, if not disregard), and a bashy tool of some sort.

Cut bottle to fit pickle fork and prevent scratches, insert fork between stuck parts, hit really hard with hammer till piece can be removed. (I've used this to remove both a stuck wheel and swingarm before.)

Also, if you have cans of air for your computer, maybe try spraying it (upside down) around the swingarm to try and contract the metal?

Good luck & hope this helps!

As I understand it the issue is not being able to remove the exhaust support swingarm. Getting the bearing out of the swingarm is another issue altogether. You must remove the swingarm to carryout any bearing replacement as the bearing cannot be removed by drilling. Getting the swingarm off when it appears completely seized can be effected by the application of heat around the central bearing which can stick on the end of the drive shaft. The alloy swingarm and bearing will expand enough to allow you do this if you get it hot enough. But only use a 'heat gun' and not any sort of flame. Often the the swingarm can then be pulled off using a puller. You need to work quickly though to avoid the swingarm and bearing cooling too much. Generally if you do it right the swingarm and bearing will heat up and expand more quickly than the drive shaft which is very dense hardened metal. I would advise against bashing the shaft area too much as the bearings in the gearbox take the shocks and can be damaged.

You can drill out the bearing enough to get the swingarm off the bike and then get the parts of the bearing off the axle and swingarm using standard tools.
I have all the tools and pullers and have tried most of the techniques listed for getting a stuck bearing off, and there are times when none of them work. The best way really is to destroy the bearing with a drill, take the parts apart, and put in a new bearing. The other ways can break or stress a lot of different components.

I changed the back tire on Rocket last week.

I had put anti-seize on the axle before putting the swing arm back on last time.

It slid off like it was made of warm butter.

Bill

Update as of 4/30/18 at 9:30pm EST - The swing arm is still stuck. I'm continuing to spray penetrating oil and waiting patiently (as one poster suggested). I also contacted Scooterwest to see if they'll make good on their swing arm puller's lifetime warranty. Thanks for your advice. The bearing is totally destroyed at this point, and I already have a replacement. How does one go about drilling out the bearing? What type of drill, size bit, and drill bit material (titanium)?

The good stuff or WD-40?



Just asking.

Have you put a piece of wood on the end of the shaft and hitting it with a hammer to break the stiction.

More penetrating fluid. More time?

good stuff is aerokroil which is an aerosol or you can also get roil in a drip can.

order straight from the manufacture

best stuff I have EVER used in 50 years of wrenching.

http://www.kanolabs.com

edit: it takes very little to penatrate don't spray gobs and gobs at a time.

PB blaster and heat have never failed me. I learned about this product many, many years ago from a marine mechanic I knew. This will work unless it is welded.

Update on stuck swing arm - May 18, 2018 @ 9:30pm EST: Day 2 of PB Blaster soaking. It still won't budge. Since I bent and basically destroyed a solid steel, purpose-specific puller from Scooterwest, I didn't think the recommendation from one poster to "put a piece of wood on the end of the shaft and [hit] it with a hammer" would work. I tried it anyway, though (gently)... It didn't work.

Scooterwest said they would either refund me the price of the tool or ship me another one, and I thought that was nice of them. Scooterwest noted that sometimes the tool doesn't work and added a disclaimer saying so to their website. Their email to me indicated that I might need to take it to a shop to have it removed... What magical tool would a shop have? Is the magical tool so cost prohibitive that I can't buy it?

Final thought for the night - I paid $40 for a special tool and spent countless hours on this. I destroyed my rear ABS tone wheel and scratched up my wheels a bit... All because whoever assembled the bike (Piaggio?) didn't smear 5 cents worth of anti-seize grease on the shaft. Ridiculous.

Thanks again for the suggestions. Keep them coming.

Oxy/propane torch to heat the shaft.
Bigger bearing puller.
Bigger hammer

Just a thought have you tried jamming the bearing with something say a screwdriver so it won't tun ( you say it is toast) and then using the wheel as a lever to try and break the "seal".

Or If you could destroy the bearing and get the outer race and the frame piece off then you could cut the inner race with a dremel.

When you were using the swingarm puller before you broke it. Did you tighten to the point where it wouldn't really tighten anymore and then hit the centre bolt with a hammer? Hit tighten/hit tighten?




Anecdotal: I used to use a hydraulic bearing puller on family buses and even with the thing tightened as much as seems possible the centre bolt still sometimes has to be hit with a hammer.

As strange as the hammer and wood idea sounds it's a tried and tested method that can work.

I went to fit my new Stator which meant getting the seriously stuck on fly wheel off......without the proper tool to hand.

One good hit on the end of the shaft was enough shock the two parts apart. It only needs to move a micron to break what ever seal/connection has been made.

Sorry if you have done this and guess your frustration is growing rapidly.

Very sorry to hear you haven't been able to get the swingarm off the bike. It doesn't matter how tight the wheel is on the shaft it will come off ok if the right technique is used. As I mentioned earlier, in a case like this, that technique involves heat and persistence. It's unlikely products like PB Blaster will help in a case like this but does no harm. Heat is the technicians friend. It does not involve hammering the shaft but the odd lighter strategic sharp tap can be helpful. I am concerned that the rear gearbox bearings will have been harmed by the well meaning advice being given here. It doesn't take much to do damage to the bearings or the gears. Any hammering to the shaft is transferred directly to the bearings and gears in the gearbox. This applies to any scooter big or small....and yes, I've had to replace bearings and gears because owners have followed advice like this without knowing that you cannot keep hammering on the shaft without consequences. Hopefully it will be ok, but I'd take it to a professional to release the wheel. Professionals are used to dealing with such things and will apply their own methodology to fix the problem which usually won't involve too much hitting it with a hammer! Heat...heat...heat! It always works if you are doing it correctly. Good luck...

PS. if the gearbox bearing/s and gears have been harmed (and you'll know after you have covered a few hundred miles because they hum and whine when hot at speed) it's an easy job to replace them and not too costly.

PPS. I don't recommend this if you have not done this before. But, if you want to drill the bearing out then it's a really awkward and risky job. Easy to damage the swingarm. The bearings are super hardened and you need a really good drill bit of a good size that will fill the ball race area, and usually more than one as they wear really quickly. The idea is to drill into the ball race area and break up the race. The problem is that the drill will want to destroy the race cups too and can cause damage to the swingarm or shaft if you don't watch out. I'd never do it unless it's an absolute last resort and then only if I had done it before and knew the technic. I've done it before and didn't like it! Once the wheel is off you have to get the broken bearing cups off the shaft. Not recommended and usually won't be carried out by a tech unless there is no hope of anything else working. Most techs will say heat...heat...heat instead and much easier!

heat is an expansion on metal. so do not heat the shaft but heat the bearing.

get a 3 prong large bearing puller.

get some KROIL

soak over night in KROIL.

install bearing puller so the fingers can grab the swingarm.

tighten to put tension. adjust position if need be. some times you can only use 2 of the prongs, just make sure if you do that they are 180 apart.

then tighten with more pressure till you hear a POP. and there you go.

Update on stuck swing arm - May 3, 2018 @ 6:30am EST

Thanks to everyone for their assistance with the stuck swing arm. With three days of PB Blaster, my wife's hair dryer (i.e. my heat gun), some freeze-type spray lubricant, a cat's paw, and the help of my old friend, Johnnysigs, I was able to get it off! So, the advice on the forum worked... Thank you! Now, I need some help with next steps:

1. The outer race of the bearing is still stuck on the suspension piece. Johnnysigs and I got the inner race and bearings out, though. Does anyone have suggestions for getting the outer race out without banging up the bearing housing?

2. My rear ABS tone wheel is bent and misshapen. Do I need to replace it or should I just try to straighten it out? If it needs to be replaced, I will likely need to wait a week or more for the part...Can I still ride and turn the ABS off while I wait for the new tone wheel?

3. Anti-seize - Lots of it. Is there a recommended product? I have the liquid aluminum-type... Should I use the liquid type along with some grease? Or should I buy a tube of the anti-seize grease and use that?

Thanks again for the assistance. Great forum.

Regular grease is what you use.

I stumbled onto a tube of this so i bought it. More leaks out than I use.

If you already have a new bearing bung it in the freezer for couple of hours

Two hours later send your wife/partner out to the shops and bung the aluminium piece in the oven and set to 350 deg./F/or 180 degC. Not more than 1/2 hour.

The housing is aluminium and the race is steel, the hub will expand more than the race and the race should drop out.

If it doesn't drop out turn it open side down and tap the underneath with the piece of wood you didn't use before gravity will do the rest. Or drop it onto the floor/bench.

While it is still hot , take the bearing from the freezer and drop it into the housing. It will slide in easily.

NB. I have to confess to not knowing if the housing is painted or simply bare aluminium.

let me know how this method works. There is no way you are
shrinking a bearing stuffing it in a freezer or an ice age. Also let me know what happens when the ice forms under the bearing seal.

cooling bearings is explained by Timken............

https://www.timken.com/pdf/10461_CV6%20Proper%20Installation%20of%20Bearing%20Components.pdf

no moisture under the bearing seal = no ice

I've just changed mine and it did indeed go in easily with hot housing + cold bearing

Please consider yourself better informed, if none the wiser.

Ill stick by my post. I mean Ive yet to see a shop with dedicated "deep freeze" capabilities. I can almost guarantee you cannot get a dimension different from a room temp bearing vs deep frozen one.

please post pics of your "deep freeze" facility. I want to know what a "pro" that promotes "freezing" bearings uses.

A domestic freezer would do.

A domestic freezer would do.

Ok take dimensions of a wheel bearing. Pop her in the freezer for 24 hours.
Take another measurement of the same area and post your findings.

About 10 microns, or 0.0004" shrinkage would be my guess.
Enough to go from strong press fit to snug fit. Or snug fit to 'drop right in'.

It absolutely does work. When I rebuilt my VBA motor the bearings were a tight fit and were going to require a bearing press, which I do not have. After the case came out of the oven and the bearing came out of the freezer it dropped right in and I wasn't getting anywhere near the -65F that Timken called for. My freezer is about 0F. If you do want to get it colder without expensive equipment they explain how to do it with dry ice and anti-freeze.

And again we are back to the point of "improvising"
Also where in any of my posts did you see me saying "heat wouldn't work".
It absolutely does... the freezing part, not so much.

Ive highlighted the important tool words in your post. Thank you for quantifying the dimension.

Granted, heating the case will make a bigger improvement in easing the new bearing in.
But I just want to point out, my whole point above was to say that chilling the bearing WILL make a difference in the installation.
How to describe that difference just depends on the equilibrium state.

Well doing some research online I'm finding the Coefficient of Expansion of steel to be 0.000016 per inch for each degree F temperature change.

So if we were starting with a bearing of appox 2 inch O.D. and assuming room temperature in work shop to be 72ºF. Pop the bearing in the 0ºF freezer long enough to lower it's temperature to 0º

One would multiply the 2 inch by 0.000016 then by the 71º temperature differential.

2 X 0.000016= 0.000032

Then multiply that by 71

0.000032 X 71 = 0.002272 inches or just slightly over 2 thousands of an inch change.

That should be enough to go from a light press fit to an easy slip fit. Then if you add in the Coefficient of Expansion of the aluminum that is approx. twice that of the steel even letting the arm sit out side on a sunny day will help even more.

Ideally one would have a tool handy that you could press on the outer race alone to encourage the bearing in before it has time to warm back up.

My preference for lubricant to make the job go easier next time would be any of the anti-seize compounds out there. The copper based ones might be a bit better but I would just use what ever is handy.

Just as a point of reference I spent over 40 years working on heavy equipment so I have seen my share of stuck bearings, some that weigh more than a Vespa!

Well done kshansen, Madison and others on the freezing thing. You are right and kshansens calculations are just about right! It's standard practice as a tech to use heat and yes indeed to sometimes freeze down a bearing or even a core plug on some very modern engines to aid fitting, especially in very tight fitting alloy housings. Bearing pullers are rarely ever needed to remove a case bearing, just heat. A bearing drift to refit is again rarely needed to drive the bearing in if heat is used, except as a final check to make sure the bearing is fully home. And of course a very cold bearing works best. Bearings are case hardened or through hardened which does reduce very slightly the expansion and contraction rate depending on the exact make up of the steel used in the bearing and the type of hardening, but not much in circumstances like the one we are talking about. A frozen bearing will drop straight into a heated up casing and normally go fully home without any real effort.

One point theshuman might like to take onboard is that using a hairdryer is not really anywhere near powerful enough in circumstances like yours when trying to remove a swingarm. A proper heat gun would have removed the arm very easily. It's not just about heating the arm, but heating it very fast. However, well done and you won. As Motorvista says, you can use just ordinary bearing grease, no anti-seize needed unless you are particularly drawn to it, but there's no real advantage to that in this application.

That you for acknowledging that during my various hobbies and careers that I have picked up some snippets along the way

I actually use a can of electronics freeze spray for small bearings after it has been in the freezer but not everyone has that computer freeze spray. Call it a hack if you want but it does work.

Everyone else in this thread seems to be in the "it works" or"nothing to lose" camps.

If you don't wish to do it then don't. Others may bung the bearing in the freezer.

You need to be careful not to transfer very high heat to the oil seals in the final drive unit or anything else that this level of intense heat is not good for.

Yes indeed a worthwhile point to make, but a heat gun used correctly won't have time to transfer heat along the shaft to the gearbox side. That's the idea of heating stuff up fast, and don't forget it will be aimed at the swing arm exhaust carrier primarily which shields most other things from the heat. In any case the heat gun isn't as hot as a flame of any kind so it's very low risk and the seals will cope fine with a lot of heat. Those seals are rated for high heat use. I've heated crankcases from the inside where there is a lot of crankcase webbing that needs lots of local heat in order to release bearings and the outside seal has been totally untouched by the heat but the bearings just drop out. Although I always replace seals in that situation because the duff bearing has usually killed the seal anyway, it's not been killed by heat.

Update on stuck swing arm - May 12, 2018 @ 10:15pm EST

Over a week and the outer race of the bearing is still stuck on the suspension piece. I tried heating the suspension piece in the oven and fully expected the inner race to "drop right out"... Not so much. I did a lot of banging with various implements (wooden dowel, screwdriver), but the inner race is still stuck. I just sprayed some PB Blaster, so hopefully that will help.

1. Are there other ideas to get the outer bearing race out?

2. At this point, I've nicked up the inside of the bearing housing pretty good... Screwdrivers are good at gouging up metal. If I get the bearing race out, will the suspension piece still be usable for a new bearing or not? How will I know if the gouged up bearing housing will be okay for seating a new bearing?