Modern Vespa

Fellow scooter enthusiast I need your help. I ride my scooters a lot and I love to go to the desert paved roads here in Arizona as well as hooping on the HWY.
My problem is that my 05 PX 150 hits a maximum speed of 65 GPS and it is screaming. Just like I said before over the years it doesn't sound healthy, it is a very high pitch. My spedometer hits the 74-75mph.

I tried a few combinations of exhaust and the top speed is the same and the sensation of hitting the red line is always present, I think I am running out of gearing.

My mods are malos 166cc, 24/24carb, broomstick/sito plus. What would you do? would it be better to put a P200 tree or buy a malossi overdrive gear. I would hate to have to open the engines cases because the scooter has only 6000 miles but I just can't ride like that, I wouldn't make it too far driving at near red line for too long.

Should I buy a tachometer and see where my RPMs are? What sort of speeds are you guys getting on your Stella/PX? My PX seems to have the short gears, I barely hit 45-47mph (GPS) on third gear.

On a different note, when I ride my P200E (malossi 210) or my Sprint veloce (malossi 210cc ) it wouldn't break a sweat at 65mph, I can hit 60mph in third.

Let me know what you think. Thanks

I have a tachometer and CHT on my Stella. I would NEVER ride without those, especially on those 2t.

My max on those are 6,000 RPM and 350F. Any more, and I back down.

^^do you have it on all of your scooters?, that can get expensive. I would have to get at least a Tachometer but I am afraid that the 6000rpm limit wouldn't do it for me, I am guessing that is what? like 55mph, maybe 60mph? no way.. that would seriously limit my riding style.

What speeds are you getting? are you using gps?

I don't have any direct experience, but I'm looking at this gearing calculator:

https://www.scooterhelp.com/tuning/vespa.gear.calc.html

If yours is a PX150 EFL (late), it seems that 65mph, you're running just under 7000rpm. That's high-ish, but not alarmingly so, judging from dyno charts online. Kitted smallframes often run above 9000rpm.
If it's comfortable or enjoyable is different issue! And a CHT is probably wise.

According to the same calculator, stock P200E gearing puts you at 6000rpm at 65mph.

High rpms isn't always a problem. Mechanical issues aside I think it mostly comes down to noise and vibration making riding unpleasant. I used to have a Ninja 250 that was quite happy to run at 10,000rpm all day long.

^^ That is as fast as it would go and the engine sounds screaming, literally screaming at high pitch. I knew about the scooter help calculator, it sounds to me that I hit the wall as far is speed.

I was trying to see what other people have done to mitigate the high reving problem.

I've upgeared with a 22t clutch gear.
And a larger 100/90-10 tire. Nice highway gearing and not revving to hard around 65/70mph.
You won't need to split he cases to do these mods. Just be prepared to remove the clutch and have the right tools.
The clutch cover may need to be shaved to clear the tire wall depending on tire brand. I'm running the Michelin S1 and still needed to shave the cover

^^ would the 22 teeth sprocket add the speed (lower the rpm) on just 4th gear or does it affect all others gears too?.

Or as someone suggested to me (when I mentioned the rear tyre was rubbing on the clutch cover) space the wheel across with a washer on each hub stud.

Like the larger tire it effects all the gears. So you will get a slightly taller 1st 2nd and so on..then you can do longer wheelies in 1st

Usually cruise at 50-55 I'm completely stock except for a 24/24 carb. a Tech CHT isn't that expensive, certainly much less than a new piston/head.

For some people a screaming engine is not a bug, it's a feature!
(not for me though)

But I think my point was that there are lot of engines that aren't screaming at 7K revs, they are just happily zinging along. Not every engine is happy up there though, and yours might be one.

Have you checked out onboard YouTube videos of Vespas with a tach? This one, for example (a Rally 200, clearly not stock), seems quite happy in the upper 7K's:

https://youtu.be/qa5OKuuKlrk

My 05 PX150 came with an undersized 20T clutch drive gear to compensate for the Euro 2 catalyzed exhaust and downjetted carb.

Once I replaced the exhaust with a Sito+ (now a SIP Road) and adjusted the jetting to match, the next step was to replace the drive gear with the more standard 21T gear and as a result was able to attain the same speeds (and more) at lower RPMs and with an engine that felt less strained.

I considered the 22T gear to gain more top speed, but decided against because we have a lot of hills around here and didn't want want to lose any lower end power.

Smart man! I think most people want outright max top speed rather than a gearing that's optimal for the type of roads that their scooter will actually see. I'm located in the same area as pdxjim, so I've installed a short 4th in all of my stock 200 engines. I needed that little bit of extra lower gearing to climb some of the hilly highways...and while riding into the headwinds.

Cruising 50-55 mph is not a feasible to me, specially if you say stock. There is no way I would ride the vespa at those speeds, it would completely change the routes in which I like to ride, no more freeway/interstate hwy.

The CHT is nice but I need to focus more on the gearing, we already know I like to cruise a higher speed.

It is always good to adapt to the terrain in which you live. I am in the flat Arizona desert and no hills.

Scooterist,
Your drag increases exponentially at the function of velocity ^4. You want to have your top speed RPM inside the torque curve at top speed. Gear it too short and you'll run out of steam before you hit top speed. Gear it too tall, and you'll never develop enough torque to reach top speed.
The clutch "input" gear is very easy to swap, and the easiest way to alter the gearing of your bike. As the others have said here (and I heartily concur with after learning the hard way) Invest in a CHT gauge, wear proper gear, and don't do highway speeds on inner tubes.

Stay safe!
-Slashy

^^ so you are suggesting going tubeless? why? if you get a tire punture it wouldn't matter much, the tire will go flat either way. Why would the vendors sell you a tube then? if that was a safety concern don't you think it would have been addressed by the manufacturer?

Tubeless tire deflate slower so you have a chance to slow down as opposed to a blow out. That being said, I haven't had a flat in years on any of my scooters.

Scooterist,
The inner tube isn't much of a safety concern when you're doing normal Vespa speeds. When you ride faster, the damage you and your bike will suffer in a sudden loss of control will be much higher.
As PDS said, the reason to go tubeless is it removes "sudden loss of control" from the equation.
Same deal with the CHT gauge. You don't really need it, but it'll give you some warning so you don't seize your motor, lock up your rear wheel, and lay your bike down doing 70.

If you're going to ride this fast on a regular basis, it is wise to minimize the likelihood of a crash and maximize your protection JIC.

Just a recommendation. You don't have to take it

Best,
-Slashy

This sounds ideal for me as well. 05 PX150. malossi 166. SIP Road. HotRodAL Vortex. Last year I did a road trip with MJRally and his crew who all have 200s. My PX was screaming at WOT trying to keep up with them, which I couldn't. I'd like to be able to bring the RPMs down and top speeds up a bit, but only for these yearly rides that have both straights and hills spread over 600 miles.
I live on a modest hill, which I tackle often. So would you all concur that the 21 is probably a good fit for me as well? Lose a little low end but gain more high end with lower RPMs? What about the taller tires (since I need new ones anyway...)?

Where is your peak power in say, third gear? If you know exactly what ratios are in there, you can then work backwards to find out what rpm the motor is doing. If you have a tacho then it's easier again.

Feed in your setup to this - http://gearingcalc.free.fr/. Try to match up your desired top speed to your peak power at the rpm you worked out previously. Start with different tyre sizes, then go to the different clutch gears that will mesh with your primary.

My mate had a Malossi 166 with T5 4th and a Simonini exhaust, it would sit on 110 gps (68mph for you on the dark side ) without thrashing it. Not sure of the primary gearing though.

GoSlash-y. Good advice. If you have a scooter that goes as faster than the tyre speed rating you need better tyres. Most tubed tyres are rated to (safe to) 62mph. I think they don't make this stuff up.

Ginch to simplify that for the masses.
Work out how many rpm you are doing maxed out in 3rd gear.
Work out how many rpm you are doing maxed out in 4th gear.
Subtract one from the other.

2000 rpm difference is probably over geared, unless you're girl sized
1000 rpm difference between 3rd and 4th is a nicely geared tourer
500 rpm difference is for thrashing around or hill climbing
0 rpm difference is for the race track

The Beedspeed Vespa gear ratio chart says the early PX 150 EFL has a 20T upper sprocket and the late PX150 EFL has the 21T upper sprocket. I have a 2005 PX150 that was imported to the US. How can I confirm which upper sprocket (20 or 21) is in my bike? I don't want to remove the clutch. There must be a simple way to tell which upper sprocket I have installed. Can the upper sprocket be determined by the gear ratios listed for the four speeds in the owner's manual? Thanks.

...as in a US market 2005 PX150 or a 2005 Euro model that someone imported?

My understanding is that a late (even the Euro 2 and 3) PX150 has the same gearbox as a PX200, but with a 68T primary and a 21T clutch. This is what my 2012 Euro 3 had, before I kitted it and used a DRT 23T clutch and 100/90 tyre on SIP tubeless rims. I'm a little under 78KG. The kit in my case is a BGM 177, setup for relaxed touring/commuting, and 65-70MPH is easily achievable on a motorway. The scoot still has the 2011+ rev limiting CDI, so in theory it never exceeds 7000 RPM in any gear. That's by design BTW, despite the Readspeed CDI being available.

The Malossi 166 likes to rev, so you would probably want to stay at 21T (22T at a push) to get the best out of it. I would personally have my hand hovering over the clutch if I were screaming along at 65+ for long periods with an iron top end, but maybe that's just me. The T5/PX125 4th gear would also be a good move, but lots more work involved. The BGM kit and box exhaust can handle the larger gap between 3rd and 4th.

Gear it too tall, and you'll never develop enough torque to reach top [b]speed.


I have this problem with AnaKey...except when I am on holiday, or alone

My NSR cruises easily at 150-160 kph. Out for a ride many years ago and stopped at a gas station after a long-ish stint on a multi-lane hwy. The Blackbird/Ducati/Motoguzzi guys were chatting. What rpm are you cruising at?
Ducati about 4400 at 150 Kph other very similar. They all looked at me and asked.

9500! Yes it is like riding a chainsaw but it will do it all day.

Ha ha! Thought you'd like that!

Personally I just don't get it. These vintage Vespa's were never designed to go 65, 75 mph. If its speed you want, ride a Harley.
I have a 2005 Stella 150 on 10" wheels, a fully restored 1965 VBB 150 on 8" wheels and a 1999 Harley FXDX that will break any speed limit in Ohio in 2nd gear.
For me, 40 to 45 mph is a comfortable speed on either one of the scooters, that is riding on my local back roads with very little traffic I don't take the scooters out on busy hwys. Its just not my style of riding.
If I need to stay in the mainstream of traffic the Harley gets the call.
I must admit those back roads on the scoots are more enjoyable to me, but hell, I'm old.

The Range Rover was designed for farmers that wanted a little more comfort whilst driving across muddy fields, yet now you will only ever see one being used to drop children off at school.

A Vespa has a two stroke engine. It's inevitable that people are going to make them go fast(er). Besides, tuning is a lot of fun and a worthwhile challenge. Even if you don't use the extra power much of the time, it's good to know it's there. With a front disc brake, you can even stop......just.

I take your point, but the day people stop messing with Vespas for extra horses will be a very sad one.

Mickeyfan1,
FWIW I agree with you. Unfortunately, that means these vintage Vespas were never designed to be used for road trips in most of the US, where speeds are faster and towns farther apart.
I also prefer to keep the speed down to 55-60 and enjoy the scenery, but sometimes I have no choice. If the road between me and where I need to be is a divided highway with a 65 MPH speed limit, then that's how I must drive, and so that's what my bike must be capable of doing... At least until I get to an exit and transfer to a more fun road.

I can only imagine how much more of a problem this must be for scooterist out there in the desert...

Best,
-Slashy

My 2005 PX 150 was imported to the US from Piaggio. A local Vespa shop in Columbus Ohio imported and sold the bike.

After looking at the Beedspeed chart and comparing the 4th gear ratio to what I have listed for mine (5.36), I have concluded I have the 21 T sprocket in my bike driving a 68 tooth gear. That seems to be a very good compromise for the stock engine it has in it.

I understand the desire and satisfaction of tweeking these 2T scooters to run like scared rabbits. I think we are all guilty of that to some degree.
All im saying is at some point the speed exceeds the design and integrity of the bike its self.
I have no problem taking my Harley up to 75 mph or beyond but i dont want to be an a Vespa doing 75. Just not enough bike under me to feel comfortable.

The ride only starts to get good at 75. 80 is better. I'm sure everyone here will wait for you and your Harley to catch up at the next cafe.

Shoot... here in the 'States, the next 'cafe' is just another Starbucks, the road is terrifying, and the drivers are inept. Much more fun to wind my way pleasantly from one small town to the next, checking out the scenery and points of interest on the way
My bike can go that fast and I can ride that sort of road... but I don't enjoy it. TBT, I don't think I'd find it very fun even on a bike that's designed to do it. All the fun is *off* the beaten path.

YMMV,
-Slashy

I have two sportsbikes that I still ride, they do upwards of 160mph, zero to 60 in little over 2 seconds. They handle so well. Stop so well. Bore me to death
Scooter is like the naughty mistress you see on the side and can't stop thinking about.

I too have a 95 cc Harley and there is not a Vespa that could keep up with me. The comment about waitng for you and your Harley to catch up at the next cafe is ludicrous. I love riding my Vespas. But when it comes to real performance, the Harley beats the Vespa hands down. Also, I don't have to keep my fingers on the clutch and worry about a seizure while going 75 mph.

It shouldn't be a problem keeping up with a 95cc Harley...

Thanks for all the support folks. I am currently installing(swapping) a full P200E engine that I had on my sprint veloce. This engine has a new pair of engine cases, a new malossi 210 and it has the taller gears.

My question is now regarding the autolube. Would the autolube on the PX150 bolt and work on the P200 engine? I think the worm gears are slightly different.

The P200 engine that I am using that the oil passages blocked because I was mixing it myself.

I called scooter west a couple of days ago and spoke with their service department and they told me that the taller gear set kit will significantly hinder the acceleration so that was the nail in the coffin.

Yes I want taller gear because I like to go fast but the scooter is not accelerating that fast with the current malossi 166cc, expansion chamber, 26/26 so putting a taller kit wasn't a WIN-WIN situation.

The kit is like $179 then you have to split the cases. I ended up switching plans and I am putting a malossi 210 engine with very low miles, new cases, new mazzucheli full circle. Thank you for all your inputs.