Modern Vespa

Asking for a friend.

In all seriousness, I do this sometimes on the highway with fast moving traffic and often wonder if I'm doing any damage. Thanks all!

no.

However IF you want it to run best... you should do yourself a favor and put it on a dyno to see what the A/F ratio is. And service your belt more frequently.

If it hurt to ride at full throttle (or WOT as we call it here) there would be a rev limiter to keep you under a certain speed (and rpm).

I'm not sure if riding coast to coast, WOT all the way, round trips (Cannonball Run style) for months at a time would be the best thing.... but it would probably be fine.

Wasn't it 30 plus years ago that Saab ran a Saab 9000 around a track 24/7 for something like 100,000 km, and they only stopped for fuel, driver changes, and oil changes? I think it worked out ok...

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hsx/2009/10/Run-for-the-record---Saab-9000-and-900/2130431.html

That's good news, thanks for the info!

Thanks for the info, Larry. Your comment about a rev limiter makes sense (and I wonder if Vespas have a limiter already? - that will give me something else to research).

they do... around 9,000 rpms stock. Can be increased via a flash or secondary fuel controller.

Stock valve gear is good for about 11,000 rpms. Running WFO will fatigue the springs and hardware.

Your engines not going to explode from it, but less it better. It does cause more wear on the motor, belt and you should try and allow a cool down when you get off the highway as it doesn't build up more heat and a cool down before shutting it down helps everything. I try to ride a few miles as a cool down after a fast run.

Andy,

The Vespa 300 has long legs and surely can take some abuse. My Burgman 400 actually has a red line on the speedometer. I try to stay out of the red.
I am sitting at my office and can not see my Vespa 300's speedometer. I do not believe they have a red line indicator.

My first scooter was a Piaggo Scarabeo 150. I was always riding wide open trying to keeping up with my Max-Scooter riding group. Obviously, I needed a more powerful machine. I had the wrong scoot for this group that I love.

If you need to run real fast over extended periods of time, consider having a
second horse in your stable. BMW, Suzuki, Honda and many more make larger displacement scooters.

Bob Copeland

Crank that thing open!!! It will take it. Mine have with 10's of thousand miles.

If you must ride WOT then just make sure you use a motorcycle specific oil (it works so much better under stress than car oils) and ease the throttle down every mile or so for a second or two to suck oil up into the cylinder around the piston and rings. This cools the top end of the motor and washes away debris that will build up in the piston ring lands. It also helps to prevent cylinder glazing which occurs at high speed WOT. Of course, there is an argument that says if you need to run WOT all the time (or often) then you need a bigger bike as WOT is not the best way to look after your ride and make it last.

ease the throttle down every mile? WTF??
You think the top end of the motor over heats in a stock configuration?
If anything the tiny intake/exhaust ports and valves mechanically limit how much power the engine can make. I dont know what constantly rolling off the throttle is going to do?? Thats a new one on me!

The rev limiter keeps it around 82 mph, right? Probably don't need to go faster than that.....

These scooters (and all other CVT machines) are designed to use the upper rev areas of your engine's performance. If you grew up in the days of big old American Iron loping along at 70mph at 2000 rpms (think small block Chevy), then it seems quite weird and different. But the fact of the matter is that small displacement high revving engines have been here since the 1970s, and they work just fine.

Kinda makes you wonder what would happen if someone tried the Saab endurance test with scooters. If you read the details of the Saab test, they burnt an exhaust valve in all three cars, not due to a design fault, but because when the cars ran low on fuel they were starved (running lean) in the corners at the end of each tank.

But back to your scooter... if you blast down the highway at 75mph for a few hours, it's designed for that. If that's all you ever do, like all the time, never on a back road or a city, it's probably fine too.

Some of the more experienced riders here have done multiple scooter Cannonballs... plus Iron Butts and beyond. Read up on those and you'll see that you're more pushing the rider's limits than the scooter's.

One last thing... the rev limiter is there for a reason. If you want to mess with it to get more speed, go right ahead. But don't be surprised if something wears out or breaks down the road. As is, with the rev limiter, it has more than enough speed to handle interstate highway riding.

Creates a vacuum and sucks oil mist past the rings into the cylinder for more lubrication.
Makes total sense to me.

It will do it, that is a fact. How much extra wear is caused is not known. But it is a fact there is more wear, that is Physics. No one can deny that.

More lubrication huh? Whodda thunk that? If your oil pump is churning around 100 psi through the pump, galleys & filter but simply turning off the throttle, there by lowering the oil pump pressure and back on will increase oil pressure & lubricity???

Yeah, it makes sense. No arguing with physics, and I learned and forgot more physics than most people.

At the same time, a scooter (or car) driven mostly on the highway gets more miles per repair$ than one driven around town. Most of my cars aren't super high miles ones (I work from a home office, so no commute), and I wear out and break the auxiliaries on an older car before I ever wear out the engine or transmission.

And which would incur more wear... the scooter that's only ridden 5 miles each way in a city environment, or one that blasts 150 miles down the highway regularly?

Or we should just stop thinking and ride!

You are clueless about engine lubrcation aren't you

Cylinders are lubed from oil coming off the crank and some engines, not most have injectors that spray oil onto the cylinder walls to cool them down. Fords Power Stroke Diesel uses oil injectors to cool the pistons.
But these little motors count 100% on oil splash to lube the cylinders.

I'm in the camp of ride it as hard as you want to or need to to get where you're going. But then, even my MP3 500, notorious for oil blow-by, hasn't had a peep of problems since early on and now has over 40,000 miles on it. Probably ~90% of which was at over 70 MPH.

And yes, in my experience a vehicle runs better longer if it is used daily/frequently. For me this is clear on my car, which sit outside during the summer, unused for as much time as possible . Brakes and everything else rusts due to sitting. Scooters stay in the garage all year. One must have priorities.

well when ever you are confronted with a technical question specific to scooters you seem to want to drag irrelevant vehicles or products into the conversation.
I dont care about PSDs. We are not discussing PSDs...matter of fact I wouldnt let one tow my race trailer if given one.

Now back to the question... how does throttling back increase oil pressure and lubricity?

FYI... I do know a little about the technical aspects of building a high performance engine. If I cant figure it out... I have a pretty healthy rolodex of contacts of qualified personnel.

Question from the crowd, if you don't mind.

In a 4-stroke engine, 2 strokes are with high pressure in the cylinder (compression and ignition), one is at ambient or slightly elevated pressure (exhaust), leaving only one stroke (intake) with any possibility of having the cylinder being in vacuum. Correct so far?

Anyway, my question is, wouldn't you get the highest vacuum in the cylinder at highest RPM?

Cylinders are lubed from oil coming off the crank. The oil is THROWN off the crank as it SPINS.
But these little motors count 100% on oil splash to lube the cylinders.

And if you have 100 psi you are blowing seals.

Vacumm goes down with throttle and up when you let up off the throttle.

Although correct, actually the QUASAR engine has an oil injector to spray the piston and cylinder. Pictures are taken from the workshop manual...

Do you actually know anything about engines turboblew? Your postings indicate not! This is basic stuff.

Ok turboblew, it's clear you don't understand what the question is let alone the answer. It's not your fault as most folks don't know either...but you do keep telling us you know so much about engines. Yet, even basic engineering pertaining to engine lubrication seems beyond you.

WEB-Tech is of course spot on with his explaination of the principle of what happens when the rider closes or eases back on the throttle especially when riding at high rpm. You only need to do this momentarily and it shouldn't affect your cruising speed to any extent. But the same thing happens at any rpm or speed when the throttle is backed off but it's most effective at very high rpm. Good riders and endurance racers use this to good effect to protect the engine from extremes of temperature, and to prevent cylinder bore glazing which can occur when riding WOT for long periods. This well known technique also gives added lubrication to the piston, rings, valves and guides...cooling everything in the process. IT DOES NOT INCREASE OIL PRESSURE, SO WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THAT.? Running WOT for mile after mile SUPERHEATS the upper engine components considerably. Therefore, backing off the throttle periodically is proven to further cool and lubricate those engine components and reduce the chance of cylinder bore glazing thus improving engine life and protecting performance. This can further reduce the chances of a catastrophic engine failure at high rpm.

WEB-Tech is technically capable and knowledgeable with engineering credentials. We have spoken periodically. I am an ex-engine design & development engineer, tech & master tech. I think you may just be peeing into the wind on this one turbo! From past experience I don't suppose that will stop you from trying to spread more misinformation!

Very good illustration SaFIS. Most modern engines now cool the underside of pistons using this method, plus splash. It helps keep the piston rings and lands clean too. But you know all that I'm sure.

please name 1 "good rider" aware of this technique youre talking about?


And again... tell me how much data you have on the quasar engine? Because it reads to me like youre resting on past accomplishments.

I asked a simple question about oil pressure and lubricity. Web tech pollutes yet another thread with his... um JASO spec silliness. Credentials? haha

Let me guess.... youre a wankel engine developer???

misinformation? Have you ever read a post where I claimed to be an engine builder? You have claimed in many threads to be an engineer. But then you clam right up when your data is called to the carpet. I know exactly your type. I will say a stopped clock is correct twice a day. Just like an engineer is capable of. More than that...is just dumb luck!


Seems like you and webtech are birds of a feather.

This is a very interesting subject. Many modern engines use very short stroke engine designs. In other words the bore size exceeds the length measurement of the crankshaft throw (stroke). This means compared to a 'long stroke' engine the piston speed (in our GTS's for example) is low for any comparable engine speed.revolution. So my Gts300 revs massively higher than say a Harley, but my piston speed is much less at any given engine speed revolution. The Harley piston speed could be as much as two or three times the speed of my GTS at some engine speeds even though the Harley is a low revver. This also means my GTS piston travels less distance up and down the cylinder bore for any given engine speed compared to a long stroke equivalent engine thus potentially making my GTS last longer. Therefore, unlike long stroke engines I can run my GTS (a short stroke engine) at much higher rpm with much less engine wear. However, due to these high sustainable engine revs the motors upper engine components do get very very hot. Thus a good riding technique is required for best engine life. A general rule of thumb is you should not cruise an engine for sustained periods at more than 75% of maximum power revs. To do so increases engine wear expotentially. There are some minor exceptions regarding very small engines which can be operated at speeds beyond that without too much detriment.

Another good example is an Enfield 500 motorcycle with its long stroke engine will wear itself out at 50,000+ miles, especially if ridden hard and fast. It has high piston speed and high reciprocating stresses. Yet my GTS will happily soldier on up to 100,000 miles if a motorcycle specific oil is used, and of course it's a short stroke revvy engine whiich doesn't lumber it with high piston speeds by comparison. But I'm guessing you may know all this, but just for those that don't.

In the Piaggio owners manual on my GTS it states the technique and applies it to the 'running in' period. A time when this technique is very useful in preventing glazing of the bores. Many owners manuals on different bikes suggests using the technique. The technique, cause and effect is taught on all engine technician courses. It has to be to enable understanding of engine breathing and Its taught on endurance racing courses, and high performance driving courses etc. I'll leave you to do your own research as you need the practice. Speak with your Rollerdex buddies you claim to have who if they are motor engineers will enlighten you. WHAT data of mine has been called to the carpet?? Or what data of mine hasn't stood up to questioning? Please tell and I'll put you right! If ever I post something that is incorrect I always correct it or acknowledge the error. I've had decades in the motor trade and don't know it all. Your posts are frequently centered at taking down folks using personal attack and bluster, with almost no actual useful information and refusal to answer or explain your comments . Your NEGATIVE posting rating should be giving you a clue as to what is wrong here. No one dislikes you I'm sure, but you do make it hard for yourself. Just look at what you've already said to others in this very thread!! Thanks for comparing me to WEB-Tech. It means I've got status!!

Thanks for the info on the inner workings of my GTSs. I can't tell you how much I love learning new things!

~Ride on!~

As you can see Guzzi Gal, I do go on a bit and get too enthusiastic at times but you are all gracious enough to let me carry on! Thanks for the comments. Stay safe.

Strom, never confuse someone with the facts.

Very good...!!

turboblew has been ejected from this topic

Hmmm,
Let's have someone test this empirically.... go out on the highway and run it up to the speed that traffic is flowing at, 65, 70, 75 whatever traffic is doing on your highway in your neck of the woods.

OK, now pay attention to your scootering. Are you running WOT, or close to WOT constantly? Or are you backing off now and then, because traffic is slowing, a slowpoke is blocking up the works, a car is merging onto or off the highway.

Let's see how our own behavior is. Did we get off throttle now and then? Was it enough?

And let's ask our resident high mileage riders how they handle a spirited run down the highway.

Well if 50,000 miles in the last 5 years basically going back and forth from Madison to Rockford counts, I've not had any engine related failures despite having tended to be moderately ham-fisted on my rides. Never thought to get off the throttle either; figure ~50 minutes straight of just "go".

But not generally WOT, either.

Running hard in heavy traffic frequently means going on and off the throttle. That's fine and good for your engine. It's those long long highways when for mile after mile its easy to sit there with a fixed throttle at high rpm and load. That's the damaging type of riding. You know, a tech can mostly tell how you ride your bike by looking at your cylinder, piston and rings. We can tell how you ran the bike in too! But don't over think this. Many do it without realising it. It's those that don't do it that can end their bikes life early.

SaFIS
Thanks for the info. It's very cool to know that these engines are of a very modern design, complete with underside piston cooling oil sprays. One of the reasons that these engines seem to love being worked hard, and put out great power, in the case of the BV350 engine anyway.

Andy,

There is a difference between full throttle when accelerating and /or passing etc of climbing hills than full throttle cruising.

Do you drive your car everywhere at full throttle?
If you have boat do you ride around at full throttle?
Snow mobile?

If not why not?

Even a chainsaw doesn't truly run at full throttle. Sure the trigger is fully depressed but the engine is slowed down by the bar in the cut and when the bar is lifted out the load comes off the motor, it 4-strokes and doesn't over rev. Lawn mowers are governed.

It probably won't do any harm but I don't think a GTS is designed to go for hours on end at full throttle. It is an urban vehicle. The rev limiter is to protect the engine from over rev. and warranty claims. It is not a cruise control.

If the scoot doesn't go fast enough at say 80 - 85% throttle then you need a bigger scooter.