Modern Vespa

Need to replace 1st and 3rd gears on my P200 - 15000 miles. Should I replace all of them while I'm at it and the case is open?

I assume probably the cruciform as well. Kickstart buffers. Flywheel side seal. Anything else I should automatically replace?

Thanks,

David

If its still the same gear selector box, it's going to be in a bad way. Could try to refurbish it but usually too far gone.
The cruciform selector shaft wears out and quite cheap to replace.

While open, might as well do the whole job.
Check the clutch. There will be something needed.
Clutch side oil seal.

Maybe it would be a good excuse to update to an EFL transmission? It would be expensive though...4 loose gears, axle shaft, shift cross, and selector box. I have no idea what it would cost nowadays, so I might not be worth it.

15,000 miles is almost nothing on one of these. I know people that have gone 25-30,000 miles on these with no gearbox issues. You must be pretty hard on things to trash a
gearbox in 15k

^ I was thinking the same thing. Are you sure you need to replace gears? They're pretty tough and 15k miles isn't that much. Have you opened the case and actually inspected them? They may just need shimming and a new cruciform.

Kickstart shaft o ring.

Are you sure it's not the gear selector arm ..... mine was jumping n that was the culprit after pulling gears out

That's what the mechanic told me. He said they seemed shot. But he doesn't do that kind of work.

No, I haven't split the cases to take a look yet.

Take the gear selector off. See how loose the internals are.

If your really lucky the cruciform slide has come unscrewed (left hand thread), should only turn with the wheel.

I bought my P with 67000Kms. Gearbox was fine. Although I upgraded to EFL, I still keep the old gearbox as a spare, in case sh*t happens (oiled up, in a zippy bag). How did your mechanic came to that conclusion without splitting the cases?? Strange...

I'd first check, what everyone said...

Your mechanic is just shooting from the hip. Kinda like getting legal advice from your dentist.

You can't tell if they need replacing without opening the case.

Most likely you might need a cruciform and possibly selector box. But until you look inside, he's padding the estimate.

Broken Hipster,
As a rule, "gears need replacing" is never a valid reason for splitting a case. Don't split the case unless the stuff outside has been eliminated as a culprit.


What, exactly is it doing wrong?

Best,
-Slashy

I think WE need more info on wassup from you...
I think YOU need a new mechanic (or thousands from here)...

NOTE: even I have EVER knackered a gear enough that it needed replacing!

^^^ What everybody says above.

There's no way to tell if the gears need replacing without examining them.

The shift-cross is the sacrificial component in the drive train so the gears don't really "wear out", but they can get damaged by repeated violent gear changes, just like any other manual drive train.

IMHO, the causes of this issue in order of likelihood:
Cables out of adjustment.
Worn out shift-cross.
Loose shift-cross.
Gears improperly shimmed.
Gears improperly installed.
Damaged gears.

I'm guessing if you drop the oil and discover lots of little bits of gear teeth then you know you're in trouble.

This is what I like about the magnetic sump plugs - if you're prepared to do a bit of detective work you can figure out a lot from the colour of the debris.

Hi All,

Sorry for not answering earlier. I've been out of commission with a raging head cold for the last several days. Thanks for all the replies.

The bike won't shift into gear right now without serious forcing. And then it wants to pop massive wheelies. Also the neutral is way out of line with the mark on the handlebar. I.e. neutral is above the 1st gear mark not below. I don't know if that is related or not.

When I'm feeling better I will pull the selector box and check to see what's going on on that end.

David

Broken Hipster,
That's great news! Not the head cold, but the symptoms. The problem is not inside the case.
Most likely just your shifter cables need lubed/adjusted or replaced. Could also be your selector box or loose selector shaft. All easy and cheap. You don't even need a mechanic or any special tools.

*edit* You may also have your clutch cable set too loose.

Glad you're feeling better,
-Slashy

Popping Massive wheelies can only be considered a good thing.

Okay, I pulled the selector box off of the P today. Once freed up from the selector rod, the batwing seems to be in good condition and clicks into all of the gears. The selector arm seems to be in good condition though I did notice one of the pins (one side of the pin??) sticking out a bit.

As for the selector rod, I could push it in and out a bit and it also could be rotated both clockwise and ccw - I tried to tighten it but wasn't sure which direction and I didn't want to inadvertently unscrew it from the cruciform.

I tried engaging the clutch and pushing the selector rod into gear but no luck - it wouldn't budge (but I'm not sure if it is supposed this way).

Also, looking at the Batwing gear notches can someone confirm that this is an EFL selector? The 2nd gear notch looks like what I saw on:

https://www.scooterlab.uk/vespa-px-gear-selector-boxes-part-1-workshop/

Pictures to follow.

Thoughts?

Pin sticking out

Other side is this the same pin or a second pin? This side is fairly flush.

EFL notch on second gear?

Another pic

If the rod turns both ways, it probably got unscrewed. Turn it CCW to screw it (reverse thread). To check if the selector box is an EFL one, check the position of the 3rd gear according to your link. The pin is fine. It's supposed to be a bit longer. Also check for play between the batwing's axle and the selector's housing...

Since the EFL P/PX series are somewhat of a rarity in the States, it would be a very slim chance that it's an EFL. Also, if you have a neutral switch on the back of the selector box, look no further because that will mean it's a non-EFL.

As for the selector rod, I could push it in and out a bit and it also could be rotated both clockwise and ccw - I tried to tighten it but wasn't sure which direction and I didn't want to inadvertently unscrew it from the cruciform.

GOOD CALL ON NOT FORCING THINGS
Pretty sure the cruciform screw is LHT (well, 1 around there is!)

It's amazing what cleaning does. I use "Start-ya-Bastard" (25% Ether & other petroleum based stuff to get cars going), it's a great cleaner & evaporates. Also, soaking (coiled up, as easier to handle) cables in 2/- Petrol works, & adds a light lube, you will be amazed at how much crap comes out of them

Your cables are loose, & need to be centred, the cables tightened.
Did you check the gear-changer on handlebars end of the cables?
"Search" function will tell you how to do it.

I guess it hasn't been riddden for a while?
If so, check your clutch, as (oil on?) plates can stick them together (ie get all gummed up), then clutch "jumps" into gear, even if the lever is actually doing something

Broken Hipster,
The selector rod should not rotate if the rear wheel is held still. It's threaded left- handed, so turn ccw to tighten.

Best,
-Slashy

The best way to check a selector is remove the spring.

The pivot on the spring arm is the worst. Can't believe that's like new at 15,000 miles.

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Re: the selector box "wheel", according to https://scooterlab.uk/vespa-px-gear-selector-boxes-part-1-workshop/ an EFL selector box has an asymmetrical 2nd gear notch. Mine seems to have a similar asymmetrical 2nd gear notch. But mine also has the connector for the neutral light. Could this be some sort of Franken-selector-box? Wondering if that has anything to do with the difficulty in engaging the gear?

I wouldn't go by the way the notch is shaped...I always go by SIP method of measuring the height of the selector arm (while it's in the 3rd gear notch) from the plane of the selector box box (the gasket face). Since i had a plethora EFL and non-EFL boxes, i was forced to learn just which one was which. Once i had it figured out, i labeled all of my spare boxes with a paint marker.

I had slowly upgraded all of my transmissions with EFL gears over the years, so i had to get a little bit familiarized with both.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/files/catalogue/index.html#/503

Per the SLUK article referenced, that does look like an EFL selector box, which would be unusual on that bike.

Suppose someone replaced the original selector box with an EFL one? Could that be what his problem is?

Here are some pictures of the selector arm in third gear.

Another picture....

One more picture...

Well, my selector arm seems to be more like the old style (slightly raised above the gasket line when in third) -according to the scooterlab.uk link above.

Here is their pic of the old style selector box arm as it sits slightly raised which seems to be similar to mine.

Broken Hipster,
If it worked fine previously, then it's not the wrong selector box. Just make sure it's in good working order and proceed.

Did you confirm that your selector shaft was loose? If so, that was your problem.

Best,
-Slashy

Yes, the selector rod was in fact loose, I had to screw it in about five complete turns CCW before it stopped turning. Unfortunately I don't have any time to put the gearbox back on today, I'll have to wait till next week, but I am really hoping this fixes it.

Before you close it all up, you should use some thread lock or it may come loose again. The factory manual even recommends staking it.

What is "staking it"?

I would need to remove the whole rod to thread lock it correct( never used thread lock)? Since the case isn't actually cracked I'm worried that it wouldn't find its way back into the threads of the cruciform...