RPM Verses Speed for MP3 500 Ratio Change
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Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:54 pm quote
RPM Verses Speed for MP3 Ratio Change

Hello guys - There is a lot of post out there giving the MP3 500ís engine a bad wrap on dependability. On the other hand, there is numerious posts of owners having great results and thousands of miles of trouble-free use.

I personally feel the biggest problem with the MP3 engine is; its like being stuck in 6th gear all the time - by that I mean; the engine is always lugging and torquing which is hard on any engine, much less a single cylinder thumper. The MP3 is essentially in jail with its CTV clutch that never lets the engine catch up or operate in its power band like a standard shift transmission does. As we all know, on a standard shift, as an engine winds up in speed as it tops each gear, its that kinetic energy of that rpm that launches enough power to deal with the next higher shift ratio. Regretfully, the MP3ís belt tranny never offers the engine this opportunity to peak in rpm, its captured and canít get away. The MP3 engine is bogged and constantly under load, it needs to breath. Running at around 4000 rpm (most of the time) while accelerating, riding two-up, or climbing an incline, this forces this engine to work twice as hard as a manual shift bike. As I mentioned, I really feel this is why these engines are having problems.

The ultimate MP3 would have a transmission like Hondaís DCT Dual Clutch transmission where there is no power loss and the transmission shifts by itself, or the rider can shift it. Iíve been running Hondaís DCT bikes for years, on their NC7,CTX and still own my NM4. In brief, the way it works is there is a clutch for 1st- 3rd & 5th gear, then another clutch for 2nd,4th & 6th gear. When it or you shift, all it does is disengage on clutch and engage the other instantly. This is the same transmission principle as million dollar race cars use, because unlike a hydraulic tranny there is no loss and it shifts faster than any transmission made. Anyhow the future of scooters is already out and its called the Honda X-ADV which uses this same exact DCT transmission which is pushed by a 54 hp 745cc engine. This is ultimate scooter / dual sport or what ever you want to do bike. There is tonís of videos on this bike hereís a few. Iím waiting for this bike to be released to the US!
Anyhow, getting back to the MP3, it appears the only fix is to drop the gearing and up the rpm. So Iím putting this post out there and hoping some of the MP3 experts on this great forum could help me make the right decision when I change my clutch performance.

I went out today and recorded some GPS speeds verses engine rpm in hopes of a few guys sharing their data after they changed the clutch. Below I listed 3 different speeds. Mine is a bone stock 2018 500. It was difficult getting these speeds since the clutch takes time to settle at one rpm.

30 mph = 3600 rpm
45 mph = 4300 rpm
50 mph = 4600 rpm
55 mph = 48-4900 rpm

If anyone has changed their ratio and could take the time to record some figures it would be great. For myself, I donít want the engine screaming at 65 mph, so Iím going to go with a mild change on my first try. Iím thinking if I could get another 500 rpm, it would make a big difference on both off the line and improved climbing.

Thanks - Mike



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Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:37 pm quote
I'm not really sure what you're talking about, I run mine right in the heart of its power band without issue. That's literally what a CVT was designed to do.
Hooked
2016 MP3 500 Sport ABS
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Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:44 pm quote
21g Dr Pulley sliders and Malossi clutch springs! The clutch springs only change the RPM where the clutch starts grabbing from a stop. The sliders are what make the biggest difference and increase RPM once you're rolling.
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Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:25 pm quote
Project D wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're talking about, I run mine right in the heart of its power band without issue. That's literally what a CVT was designed to do.
Thanks for the reply but you need to re-read my post. The CVT itself is the MP3's worst enemy because it never allows the engine to reach an RPM to make power. This is why I mentioned the DCT.

If you drive back and forth to work or live in Florida on the flat lands, you might maybe be OK, however in real life "Sport" use, such as adding power to pull out of a lean, or climbing hills, or riding two-up, or high speed highway use, with this much weight and drag, this engine falls flat on its face at the rpm the CVT is limiting it to.

You can't put a full load on this little engine at 3500-4000 rpm and expect anything other than to lug it. This 500 has to turn between 5200 -7200 to make "usable" power and produce its maximum torque. At 4000 rpm with a full load the engine is powerless and possibility the reason so many of these engines have a short life. Any engine that has to pull hard under load below its rated engine working rpm is contributing to a short life. Even the specs will tell you the engine does not make full power unless its turning 7200+ rpm.

Thanks Mike
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Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:11 pm quote
LowOnCash wrote:
The CVT itself is the MP3's worst enemy because it never allows the engine to reach an RPM to make power.
This is because the CVT weights, as stock, on your machine are too heavy. You need to "tune" the CVT to suit your requirements and not the requirements decided for you by Piaggio.

The weights in say a 400 are 19g each in the old 500 21g and the new 500 25g or maybe 27g
So you need to instal lighter weights say 21g or lower to get the engine to rev. some people have even gone as low as 16g.

This weights topic has been discussed in here many times. http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic102283?highlight=mp3+500+rollers
Quote:
i changed the rollers to the older model's stock rollers (blue, 21 grams). The result has been almost magical, initial take off is equally smooth as previously and the 25-35km/hr vibration is gone. I did not sense the bike becoming more aggressive, it is just smooth, as it should have been all along.
Quote:
Changing the clutch for a malossi and fitting 16gram weights (after much experimentation) makes the bike an absolute dream to ride about town and on the motorway.
Good smooth, consistent pullaway and lower rpm while crusing a win win situation. Mpg has stayed at 54 mpg mixed riding.
This guy below seems to almost echo your sentiments http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic102283?highlight=mp3+500+rollers
Quote:
I'm running 17g Dr Pulleys.

I find the biggest problem with the stock rollers is when you're trying to go up a big hill two-up. It's infuriating because, if you were riding a geared bike, you'd simply change down and get the engine spinning at max power, then you know you're going up the hill as fast as you can. With the variator you cannot trick it into revving more. You end up doing 5500 or thereabouts and you KNOW you're not getting max power. At least with the lighter sliders the engine revs more and you're closer to max power, so you go faster.
A word of caution. there is also a thread on here about excessive oil consumption when riding at a constant high speed for long periods. Which US guys want to do, more so than Europeans. They want to stay of the motorway/autobahn/autostrada wherever possible but maybe that is not an option in the US?
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Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:09 am quote
Put in a Fuzzy Washer and you'll get that extra 500 RPM. Basically it just increases the transmission ratio by holding the variator primary plates further apart. Most people report much improved acceleration and generally better performance with it, with (maybe) a small decrease in fuel economy and top speed. Lighter DR Pulley sliders are well-liked too.
But 4000 RPM is right in the peak torque band of the Master engine even if it's not at peak horsepower- It handles that RPM just fine. The only reason it seems like lugging is that there aren't 7 other cylinders to spread the load around.

(The guy in the second quote is wrong- there is a helical torque slider and spring in the secondary variator sheaves under the clutch that allow the variator to downshift when the torque goes up by pushing the secondary sheaves together. You will notice that your RPM's go up instantly when you roll the throttle on.)
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Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:00 am quote
Squeazel wrote:
Put in a Fuzzy Washer and you'll get that extra 500 RPM. Basically it just increases the transmission ratio by holding the variator primary plates further apart. Most people report much improved acceleration and generally better performance with it, with (maybe) a small decrease in fuel economy and top speed. Lighter DR Pulley sliders are well-liked too.
But 4000 RPM is right in the peak torque band of the Master engine even if it's not at peak horsepower- It handles that RPM just fine. The only reason it seems like lugging is that there aren't 7 other cylinders to spread the load around.

(The guy in the second quote is wrong- there is a helical torque slider and spring in the secondary variator sheaves under the clutch that allow the variator to downshift when the torque goes up by pushing the secondary sheaves together. You will notice that your RPM's go up instantly when you roll the throttle on.)
Squeeze - Thanks for the reply and explanation of torque slider - sounds like the washer is exactly what I'm trying to achieve first, 500 rpm would help get it up on the step a bit. I live in Chattahoochee forest area in north Ga about 20 miles from Suche's and a short drive from the tail, so my bike is struggling with these low rpm's. Has anyone installed the Fuzzy washer that could compare it with my RPM's

Don't get me wrong, I'm not finding fault with the design, for just tooling around town and transportation and some touring its a beautiful package. The MP3 is not going to be a performance bike regardless of what we do. It has the wrong transmission, its too heavy, too high and has too much drag. In order to move it to a performance category, the MP3 needs a mill like Honda's a twin 700cc engine, and a dual clutch transmission so if you want to just lay back and drive you can, or attack some hills and turns and manually shift it. If the MP3 had this combination, it would be so much fun you would not be able park it.

The biggest problem with the MP3 is Piaggio for reasons unknown, geared the bike totally wrong. Testimonial of this there is nothing you can do to reach the max torque rpm or even within a 1000 rpm of its rated max horsepower.

Thanks

PS I found these specs for the 500 which shows that at 4K rpm is way below where she makes power:

MAX TORQUE 33.6 ft lbs (45.5 Nm) @ 5,250 rpm

MAX POWER AT SHAFT 38.2 hp (29.5 kW) @ 7,250 rpm
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Piaggio MP3 500
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Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:18 am quote
Yeah, you'd be happier with a fuzzy washer and some lighter rollers. As an experiment, try just removing two of your 8 rollers (at opposite sides so you don't unbalance your variator). BubbaJon may still have a genuine CNC-machined Fuzzy Washer- I think he charges $10 for one. Or you can get a standard 36x22x.875 thrust washer from an on-line source for 7/8 of a Fuzzy Washer (search the forum for Fuzzy Washer- I may have gotten the dimensions wrong).
A word of caution- I don't know if the newer machines still use the same variator stackup- I know they changed the rollers to be heavier but I don't know what else they changed, if anything. But an extra 1mm of variator plate distance would do most of what you want, and removing 2 rollers would let you know what 3/4 of the total roller weight would feel like. From what you write here, I think you'd be pleased with the result.
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Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:38 pm quote
Squeezel,

Thanks I did find some good threads and videos today - if anyone changed their washer and could do a quick rpm /speed comparison it would be great- I copied my earlier RPM below:

Thanks


I went out today and recorded some GPS speeds verses engine rpm in hopes of a few guys sharing their data after they changed the clutch. Below I listed 3 different speeds. Mine is a bone stock 2018 500. It was difficult getting these speeds since the clutch takes time to settle at one rpm.

30 mph = 3600 rpm
45 mph = 4300 rpm
50 mph = 4600 rpm
55 mph = 48-4900 rpm

If anyone has changed their ratio and could take the time to record some figures it would be great.
Hooked
2016 MP3 500 Sport ABS
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Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:49 pm quote
That's on a flat surface and just cruising along, right? I think what would be just as meaningful would be RPM when you're under acceleration, and that's where lighter rollers/sliders make a big difference because they allow the engine to spin up compared to the stock weights.
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Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:01 pm quote
Squeazel wrote:
Put in a Fuzzy Washer and you'll get that extra 500 RPM. Basically it just increases the transmission ratio by holding the variator primary plates further apart.
Off the line! Because the washer holds the pulleys apart so the bike starts off in a lower "first" gear

As soon as the bike gets moving the force generated by the weights acting against the counter spring will be the same and the halves will be pushed together the same. There is some change at top speed as the weights get to their mechanical limit and can no longer push the halves any further.

There should be no change at cruising speed. The 500 rpm will not be added everywhere.

Dr Pulley sliders if you want to play a bit more as per the threads quoted.
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Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:49 am quote
LowOnCash wrote:
Squeezel,

Thanks I did find some good threads and videos today - if anyone changed their washer and could do a quick rpm /speed comparison it would be great- I copied my earlier RPM below:

Thanks


I went out today and recorded some GPS speeds verses engine rpm in hopes of a few guys sharing their data after they changed the clutch. Below I listed 3 different speeds. Mine is a bone stock 2018 500. It was difficult getting these speeds since the clutch takes time to settle at one rpm.

30 mph = 3600 rpm
45 mph = 4300 rpm
50 mph = 4600 rpm
55 mph = 48-4900 rpm

If anyone has changed their ratio and could take the time to record some figures it would be great.
My 2016 is very similar in ECO Mode.
I try to stay below 5000 RPM all the time for obvious reasons.

Keith,
Marietta, GA
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Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:46 am quote
Is there anyone out there with the washer and or the weight change that could post their rpm/speed data, I was also wondering how the washer affects the weight change or does it.

As I mentioned, I think another 500 rpm would give me just enough to prevent it from lugging up a hill. The problem now is if you have a sharp turn at the base of a hill and have to slow down for the turn, the engine will bog until you reach the peak.

Thanks Mike
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Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:37 am quote
LowOnCash wrote:
Is there anyone out there with the washer and or the weight change that could post their rpm/speed data, I was also wondering how the washer affects the weight change or does it.

As I mentioned, I think another 500 rpm would give me just enough to prevent it from lugging up a hill. The problem now is if you have a sharp turn at the base of a hill and have to slow down for the turn, the engine will bog until you reach the peak.

Thanks Mike
It's a CVT, RPM's from one to the other mean nothing unless everything is equal. I weigh 250 lbs, my RPM's are going to be higher than your because of that.

And torque is what gets you going not HP.
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Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:01 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
LowOnCash wrote:
Is there anyone out there with the washer and or the weight change that could post their rpm/speed data, I was also wondering how the washer affects the weight change or does it.

As I mentioned, I think another 500 rpm would give me just enough to prevent it from lugging up a hill. The problem now is if you have a sharp turn at the base of a hill and have to slow down for the turn, the engine will bog until you reach the peak.

Thanks Mike
It's a CVT, RPM's from one to the other mean nothing unless everything is equal. I weigh 250 lbs, my RPM's are going to be higher than your because of that.

And torque is what gets you going not HP.
I'm 225 myself - regardless of minor weight differences, once you reach say 50 mph and hold it there for a while, the engine rpm and speed remain almost constant like a geared bike because the belt has traveled to the extreme end of the pulley. As long as you don't add more throttle, the ratio is almost constant. The reason i know is my girl is 100 lb and I'm getting the same speed/rpm with her on as well, since the rider is blocking the air for the passenger there's very little difference in rpm and work load.

PS. Regarding your comment on torque, you're way off - If the engine does not reach the rated rpm for torque and hp, the engine will never make its rated power. As an example, if these bikes were standard shift and we hit the same hill with you at 5000 rpm and mine at 7500 rpm you'll be lost behind me!

Regards - Mike
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Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:37 pm quote
I found a few dyno graphs online and peak torque rockets up and peaks at 50km/h and from there just falls like a rock.

The horsepower curve is pretty linear all the way up to the max 144km/h top speed.

Outside of a modified exhaust system, cone air filter to replace the airbox, fuzzy washer, different vario weights, and some type of fuel tune, you seem to be expecting a lot from a single cylinder motor and a CVT.

I ride pretty aggressive on my MP3 and a lot of the fun for me is hustling it through the corners due to the massive amount of grip in the front.

You have to keep up momentum in order to really enjoy it in my opinion, but I also know that it is not a sport bike with 100+HP.

I think the MP3, if room permitted, it would be much better if fitted with a 2 cylinder motor in the realm of 600+ CC's, 50+HP, and then I think the CVT would be much less of an issue.

I know that room is a factor, but I am pretty sure there are probably some legalities, since it is a European bike, and maybe Maskor and chime in about that.

I mean, it is meant to be ridden with a car license, depending on issuing year if you are in Europe and the country in which you ride, so you have to take that into consideration.

A lot of people that buy the MP3 probably have, or had minimal experience riding until they bought one.

I fall into that category and basically learned to ride by practicing and understanding what the bike did in certain situations, kept that in my mind, and just kept learning.

Now I have 60000km on mine and bought it 3.5 years ago with 17000km on it.

I hate some of the limitations on the MP3, but I work around those in other ways too.

Also, I always enjoy playing with the little 250 "sport" bikes and gearing does not make a real difference on those.

I whip around them all the time, and they are much lighter than the MP3 by a couple hundred pounds too.
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Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:08 am quote
At 7500 RPM torque is dropping off noticeably. You want to be between 5000-6500 RPM for peak torque. Piaggio claims peak torque (42.2 Nm/31.1 lb-ft) at 5500 RPM but it doesn't look like it according to the graph. http://www.engines.piaggio.com/data/Master-400_500.pdf



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Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:11 pm quote
71Brent wrote:
At 7500 RPM torque is dropping off noticeably. You want to be between 5000-6500 RPM for peak torque. Piaggio claims peak torque (42.2 Nm/31.1 lb-ft) at 5500 RPM but it doesn't look like it according to the graph. http://www.engines.piaggio.com/data/Master-400_500.pdf
Thanks for the reply and graph- This is the first I've seen on the 500.

Piaggio is dead wrong on their comments - they are forced to say that solely for the fact their clutch is designed in error and works at that range at that 5,000 rpm, well below the torque and hp curve.

When making power for hill climbing or two-up use, our engine needs to run close to 7,000 rpm to make good power. If our MP3's had standard shift, it would have sport bike performance rather than scooter performance.

What the torque curve does not show is kinetic energy, at 7.000 rpm there is considerably more stored energy in the mass of the engine, clutch, and wheel which helps the engine to get a bite or head start on a new load (hill) and keep the engine working at its designed rpm.

As I mentioned earlier, if you take this same bike with a standard shift and one engine is turning 5,000 rpm and another is turning 7000-7500, and climb the same hill, the engine turning faster will develop more power and more kinetic energy and out-perform the other bike. As we all know, if this was not the truth, there would not be dozens of vendors selling scooter clutch kits!

Regards - Mike
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Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:40 pm quote
Like I keep mentioning, get some lighter rollers or sliders in there and it'll make a very noticeable difference in acceleration at all speeds.
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Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:56 pm quote
71Brent wrote:
At 7500 RPM torque is dropping off noticeably. You want to be between 5000-6500 RPM for peak torque. Piaggio claims peak torque (42.2 Nm/31.1 lb-ft) at 5500 RPM but it doesn't look like it according to the graph. http://www.engines.piaggio.com/data/Master-400_500.pdf
LowOn,

If you will , will you repeat your test numbers again? Ride along at the constant speeds and when steady speed rpm has been established, crank the throttle wide open and record the instantaneous increase in RPM. This will give you and us a base line to recommend from.

From the graph we need to attain something like 5500-6000. Then when you roll off the throttle to cruising speed it should drop to something like your numbers.
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Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:41 am quote
waspmike wrote:
71Brent wrote:
At 7500 RPM torque is dropping off noticeably. You want to be between 5000-6500 RPM for peak torque. Piaggio claims peak torque (42.2 Nm/31.1 lb-ft) at 5500 RPM but it doesn't look like it according to the graph. http://www.engines.piaggio.com/data/Master-400_500.pdf
LowOn,

If you will , will you repeat your test numbers again? Ride along at the constant speeds and when steady speed rpm has been established, crank the throttle wide open and record the instantaneous increase in RPM. This will give you and us a base line to recommend from.

From the graph we need to attain something like 5500-6000. Then when you roll off the throttle to cruising speed it should drop to something like your numbers.
Piratically every "common" motorcycle works on the same principals for making power, the MP3 is no different except for the fact the clutch was made in error and limits the engine rpm when needed such as climbing a hill, passing, riding two-up.

I've been climbing these mountains with bikes for 30+ years, and with a standard shift, its unheard of leaving a bike in high gear on a 7-8% grade and trying to climb at 4-5,000 rpm or more important, making sure you don't go over the power curve which is thousands of rpm well below red line. I understand that many owners are trying to convince themselves that Piaggio got this rpm clutch thing right, but I assure you its dead wrong. Other then red lining, the second most destructive force on an engine is lugging it.

Trying to climb a incline with a small 500 cc engine carrying a total weight of 1000 lbs or more (2 up) at 4-5,000 rpm, is as wrong as it gets and more than likely the cause of a lot of failures with this engine.

Thanks Mike
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Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:31 am quote
I don't know if you can say that Piaggio made a mistake, more that they optimized the transmission for a different metric than riding sprightly up a mountain 2-up. I think the CVT is optimized for fuel economy with adequate performance 1-up with a European 155 pound rider. In the US, they should have given it a little more zip and acceleration and not worried about fuel economy so much.

Thus- lower the weights, get a fuzzy washer and everything will be as it should be.
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Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:43 am quote
Thereís a real important point I left out and that is the difference of Europe bikes and US bike.

The low rpm of the MP3 is right at home for the target market of overseas were mileage is the prime objective. On the Honda dual clutch transmissions bikes like the NC or NM4 if your not in sport mode, youíll find yourself in 6th gear at 30 mph but the bike gets 70-80 mpg. The nice thing about the Honda is you have an option of Sport mode or shifting it manually. When I ride my MN4 to Suches if I leave it in Drive in the mountains it falls on its face, yet when I shift to Sport it eats the hills up.

In the US weíre all comfortable with 35 mpg so with that we allow the engine to work close to red line for performance reasons. This is why we feel the MP3 is such a slug, you twist the throttle at 45 mph and there is nothing there because the engine only turning 3-4 k.

Mike
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Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:20 pm quote
Hey Guys - I found this great older thread where a user named Veeteck did some extensive testing of acceleration using different combinations of mods on the clutch.

Regretfully, this does not show RPM which at least for myself is one of the more important features of the mod.

Thanks Mike

http://ec2-50-18-170-78.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/forum/topic102384
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Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:09 pm quote
I played around a little bit while I was out earlier and tried to watch the tach and speedo as closely as possible.

From a dead stop mine jumps up to 4000 RPM until almost 25 MPH where it starts to climb. By 32 MPH it's at 5500 RPM and stays between 5500-5700 until roughly 65 MPH where it begins to climb a little more. I let off at 65 because I wasn't out on the highway.

I might modify my sliders to take another gram of weight off of each one, and switch out the yellow clutch springs to red ones, but it's pulling pretty darn good between 30-65 MPH now. I might have to play with my PMP and see what it shows for G acceleration from a dead stop to 60 or 65 MPH.
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Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:52 pm quote
71Brent wrote:
I played around a little bit while I was out earlier and tried to watch the tach and speedo as closely as possible.

From a dead stop mine jumps up to 4000 RPM until almost 25 MPH where it starts to climb. By 32 MPH it's at 5500 RPM and stays between 5500-5700 until roughly 65 MPH where it begins to climb a little more. I let off at 65 because I wasn't out on the highway.

I might modify my sliders to take another gram of weight off of each one, and switch out the yellow clutch springs to red ones, but it's pulling pretty darn good between 30-65 MPH now. I might have to play with my PMP and see what it shows for G acceleration from a dead stop to 60 or 65 MPH.
Brent - thanks for the reply - You're right, it was very difficult for me to get the rpm/speed readings. It took me over an hour, the road has to be dead flat no wind and you have to let the bike level off in speed for a 1/2 mile or so before it finally stabilizes. I'm still looking for some post where someone posted the rpm change with the washer / clutch.

Here's mine again - Thanks

30 mph = 3600 rpm
45 mph = 4300 rpm
50 mph = 4600 rpm
55 mph = 48-4900 rpm
Hooked
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Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:08 pm quote
I didn't bother checking RPM while just cruising on flat, level road because it really hasn't changed from stock. Under hard acceleration is where the sliders made all of the difference in the world and lets the engine spin up into the peak of the torque curve. Think of the lighter sliders as similar to the effect of a performance torque converter in a car, doesn't really change the cruising RPM but makes a decent change under hard acceleration.

I might go out on a flat section of road and see how my RPM and speed compare to yours numbers but I'm guessing they're pretty darn close while just putting along down the road.
Hooked
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Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:57 pm quote
OK, I rode about 60 miles tonight playing around at all sorts of different speeds multiple times. I didn't use GPS, just the speedo on the bike which I know reads a few percent fast between 40 and 80 MPH, pretty much knock off 4-6 MPH and it's pretty close. I did each speech at least 3 different times if not more and my RPM should be within Ī 50 RPM.

30 = 3500
35 = 3750
40 = 4000
45 = 4100
50 = 4550
55 = 4750
60 = 4900
65 = 5200
70 = 5450
75 = 5750
80 = 6100
85 = 6500
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Location: Kingdom of Lanna
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:04 pm quote
Brent re above: and still 5500-5700 under full throttle acceleration?

are you still running with 16g as noted in the other thread?
Hooked
2016 MP3 500 Sport ABS
Joined: 08 Sep 2017
Posts: 249
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:58 pm quote
waspmike wrote:
Brent re above: and still 5500-5700 under full throttle acceleration?

are you still running with 16g as noted in the other thread?
I've only ever had 21g Dr Pulley sliders installed, but yes, that was under full throttle accel. When I was playing around tonight I did see closer to 6000 RPM at just a tick under 65 so I might have been a little off in the other post earlier today when I wasn't paying as close of attention to the tach and speedometer.

I also have Malossi yellow clutch springs installed but am going to change them out for the 500 RPM higher red springs. I would have put red springs in the first time but my pack was missing one spring so I went with the lower RPM yellow's.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 3487
Location: Kingdom of Lanna
Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:40 am quote
OK. My bad.

The older LT had 21g as standard. I don't think we ever discovered why they went to heavier weights with the ABS/ASR model.
Enthusiast
MP3
Joined: 15 Jun 2018
Posts: 87
Location: Atlanta Ga
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:01 am quote
71Brent wrote:
OK, I rode about 60 miles tonight playing around at all sorts of different speeds multiple times. I didn't use GPS, just the speedo on the bike which I know reads a few percent fast between 40 and 80 MPH, pretty much knock off 4-6 MPH and it's pretty close. I did each speech at least 3 different times if not more and my RPM should be within Ī 50 RPM.

30 = 3500
35 = 3750
40 = 4000
45 = 4100
50 = 4550
55 = 4750
60 = 4900
65 = 5200
70 = 5450
75 = 5750
80 = 6100
85 = 6500
Super job thanks - If your speedometer is right, your running around 1000-1500 rpm faster than my bike. When you go back out again just check your GPS speed compared to what your showing. My posted results were using GPS speed. My speedo shows 3 mph faster than actual speed.

Your bike must be pretty happy off the line or when passing. I was hoping for at least 500 rpm but you might have a better combination.

Regards

30 mph = 3600 rpm
45 mph = 4300 rpm
50 mph = 4600 rpm
55 mph = 48-4900 rpm
Hooked
2016 MP3 500 Sport ABS
Joined: 08 Sep 2017
Posts: 249
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:17 pm quote
waspmike wrote:
OK. My bad.

The older LT had 21g as standard. I don't think we ever discovered why they went to heavier weights with the ABS/ASR model.
Somebody mentioned in another thread they thought it was because of the ASR aka traction control. It never used to activate when it was stock but now if I hit bumps while accelerating quickly it'll activate briefly when it unloads the tire.
Hooked
2016 MP3 500 Sport ABS
Joined: 08 Sep 2017
Posts: 249
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:31 pm quote
LowOnCash wrote:
Super job thanks - If your speedometer is right, your running around 1000-1500 rpm faster than my bike. When you go back out again just check your GPS speed compared to what your showing. My posted results were using GPS speed. My speedo shows 3 mph faster than actual speed.

Your bike must be pretty happy off the line or when passing. I was hoping for at least 500 rpm but you might have a better combination.
I didn't have my GPS on the bike last night because it blocks the center display and makes it harder to watch the speedo and tach closely. From past experience I know I it starts reading fast by 35 MPH (only by 1 MPH) but at 55-75 mph it's reading 5-6 MPH fast. Our numbers look to be withing 2-300 RPM between 30-55 MPH while cruising, it's when I pin the throttle that my RPM is higher compared to your bike.

Acceleration is much better than it was when stock. I installed the sliders first and it made a decent difference from a stop but 25+ was the most noticeable. I installed the springs a couple months later and those made the biggest difference from a dead stop. I'm going to pull it apart soon and install the red springs which are about 500 RPM higher than the yellow springs.
Enthusiast
MP3
Joined: 15 Jun 2018
Posts: 87
Location: Atlanta Ga
Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:42 pm quote
Thanks for the specs - gives me a good idea of where I need to be, this thing is so slow the way it is.

Mike
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 3487
Location: Kingdom of Lanna
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:58 pm quote
I used to sell J Costa so I'm biased. However riding style and speed comes into play.

If you are not really low on cash just buy one of those and bung it on. All the research and development done by others. Be prepared to change weights with every belt.

If low on cash? Bung in some 18g Dr. Pulley sliders and some red clutch springs.

I started all the variator malarkey when a guy on a Thai forum had a 600 Silverwing with a sidecar. He had trouble with hills and especially starting on hills. We went for J Costa and he never looked back. Uphill down dale with passenger. Rode all around Thailand.
Enthusiast
MP3
Joined: 15 Jun 2018
Posts: 87
Location: Atlanta Ga
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:07 am quote
waspmike wrote:
I used to sell J Costa so I'm biased. However riding style and speed comes into play.

If you are not really low on cash just buy one of those and bung it on. All the research and development done by others. Be prepared to change weights with every belt.

If low on cash? Bung in some 18g Dr. Pulley sliders and some red clutch springs.

I started all the variator malarkey when a guy on a Thai forum had a 600 Silverwing with a sidecar. He had trouble with hills and especially starting on hills. We went for J Costa and he never looked back. Uphill down dale with passenger. Rode all around Thailand.
Mike thanks for the reply and your comments - looks like there is a lot of history on the MP3 drive system and a lot to learn, I've been sifting through a lot of material.

Regards
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4269
Location: Netherlands Olst
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:58 am quote
18 are to light for the 500 ABS ASR stock are 25 gr best is 22 or 23 gr
Hooked
2016 MP3 500 Sport ABS
Joined: 08 Sep 2017
Posts: 249
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:18 am quote
Maksor wrote:
18 are to light for the 500 ABS ASR stock are 25 gr best is 22 or 23 gr
I've got 21g sliders in mine and wouldn't be afraid to go with 20g now. 19g might be pushing it with the ASR.
Enthusiast
MP3
Joined: 15 Jun 2018
Posts: 87
Location: Atlanta Ga
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:47 am quote
Maksor wrote:
18 are to light for the 500 ABS ASR stock are 25 gr best is 22 or 23 gr
Thanks Maksor, I appreciate your comments - looks like you have a few of these under your belt!

Mike
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