Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:14 am

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Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:14 am linkquote
Hi guys.
Can anyone shed some light on setting up static timing on a Malossi Vespower ignition.

I'm running the new MHR177, reed valve big carb crank pipe etc.

They are saying 23degrees out of the box which is in the middle of the 3 marks on the Malossi Stator.
I know that 23 is standard on a 200 and 18 on a small block125/150
I like the torque it gives at low revs with 23 degrees advanced ignition but.. I want to make sure that it retards far enough at high revs to keep me in the safe zone.

I have strobed it and I do see the ignition retarding beyond 4000rpm. So just after some info on where people have settled on their static timing, especially running a high revving kit



Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:28 am

Jet Eye Master
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:28 am linkquote
The timing settings are just a guide. 23 degrees with minus 8 is fairly normal but anywhere between 18 and 28 might be better for your set up.

If you have a strong expansion, the timing at where you come on pipe is a factor for detonation.
If you have a big squish clearance (more than 1.0mm) the timing needs to be stronger at the top.
High compression needs less static.
Jetting needs to be good and smooth and in control of the temperature or it might seize.
Adjusting the static timing will vary the CHT and raise or lower the max rpm. A review of the jetting will be needed once finally set.

Best way is to speed test between landmarks and feel the performance. It can take a while. If you can't be bothered with all that fuss, just set at 23 and jet to suit.
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:24 pm

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Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:24 pm linkquote
Thanks jack everything you've said seems to make sense. Before I fitted the new ignition I was running the stock piaggio unit at around 16degrees on the MHR.

I'm running a reed valve, worb5 flowed crank 30phbh carb. Scooter and service newline pipe (I would call this more of a mild touring pipe??) upgreared etc.

The Mhr came with 3 base gaskets
0.1, 0.2amd 0.3mm. I ended up on the 0.2 because that gave me a squish of 0.8mm (Malossi recommend 0.7 so close enough)
After running in with that 16degrees timing untouched I instantly had to down jet from a 125main ( was running that on the 166) to a 122. And dropped my pilot from a 50 to a 48. That instantly cleaned things up and it had great power but would pink at very high rpm low throttle low load.
(Breath😝)
I tried a dozen different jetting combos to eliminate that very slight pink but to no evail, I ended up going in and putting in the 0.3 base gasket which raised my squish to around the 0.9. This eliminated then pinging. Lost a smidge of power (hardly noticeable).

Once I fitted the Vespower ignition it brought the pinging back so I have retarded the stator approx 10mm from the indicated 23degree mark. (I know I need to find top dead and mark and strobe it properly, but I want to find where it gives me the best power first.

It runs very cool with my cht temps in the low 130c on the freeway..so the coolest it's ever run in fact. Must be that trick Malossi fan wheel design.
I can really feel the retard come on at higher revs and it really knocks back the power, so I'm still trying to find that sweet spot. My tach used to show me over 8000rpm with the standard ignition but the Vespower holds it back to around the 7800rpm
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:05 pm

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Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:05 pm linkquote
Ok I've taken your advice Jack and starting to see results. I've put the timing back to 23 and starting to upjet.
122 up to a 125 main and now I'm getting somewhere.
I was getting a rich hesitation accelerating with the richer jetting (125/128 main)retarded timing/stock ignition.
The 122 would help pull clean through this rich section but then would lean off at higher revs.
Now with the extra advance I'm able to upjet and it pulls clean through that previous boggy section and now more gusto on the freeway able to hold high Rpm without any sign of pinging.
I can't feel the Vespower retard holding me back anymore and feels peppier..thanks for your advice.
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:11 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
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Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8089
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:11 pm linkquote
jimscoot wrote:
I tried a dozen different jetting combos to eliminate that very slight pink but to no evail, I ended up going in and putting in the 0.3 base gasket which raised my squish to around the 0.9. This eliminated then pinging.
This is interesting. I was getting a small amount of pinging with the supplied head on the Malossi Sport with 60mm crank. I fitted an LTH "meggele" V2 which is meant to be fitted with a smaller squish (1mm). It has a larger head volume. and the pinging went away.
I wonder if you are simply lowering compression a little, and that's the reason the pinging disappeared?
Jack221 wrote:
If you have a big squish clearance (more than 1.0mm) the timing needs to be stronger at the top.
By stronger Jack, do you mean more advanced (higher number)?
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:12 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:12 pm linkquote
Glad to here there is already an improvement.
With a 0.8mm squish the timing should probably be a little less and 23 minus 8 is probably a bit strong. 21 minus 8 could be a better compromise.

For now put the timing to 21 minus 8 until the jetting is sorted. And do it with a strobe light. Some scooters can be 5 degrees out on the marks.

Pinging at low throttle and high rpm is usually a needle/atomiser issue. This will only be hidden by main jet and pilot jet changes and will still cause some problem at some point. Your jetting could easily be ok at 1/4 and WOT but weak at 1/2.

What Atomiser, main, pilot and needle you have? How many turns on the mixture screw (most PHBH are mixture screw not air screw).

With the MHR177 the exhaust is bridged. Seizing even mildly might be a catastrophe. Need the jetting properly sorted before going onto timing.
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:17 pm

Jet Eye Master
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:17 pm linkquote
Ginch wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
If you have a big squish clearance (more than 1.0mm) the timing needs to be stronger at the top.
By stronger Jack, do you mean more advanced (higher number)?
Yes, bigger squish needs more timing advance or the mixture at the edge won't have time to add to the power.
A big squish is anything over 1.0mm in my book
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:30 pm

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Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:30 pm linkquote
Thanks again Jack. To answer Ginch as well my squish is now at 0.9.
I guess I've lowered compression slightly but I'm still running a relatively tight squish.
From what I've been led to believe a tighter squish helps eliminate trace knock at high RPM.
Jack I'm running what was supplied by Malossi when I bought the carb manifold x360 kit. They say it matches their cylinder kit (166) and just main jet changes are required.
It came out of the box with a 130 main and 55 pilot.
Number 4 slide which is meant to be the richest
9.5g float
2.25 float needle valve
Av260 atomiser
X3 needle second clip from top.
The only changes I've made are a 48 pilot and now on a 125 main
I'm 1.5 turns out on the mix screw
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:59 pm

Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:59 pm linkquote
Not urgent but next time you have the cylinder off put the squish down to 0.7mm.
Timing should still be 21 to avoid any issues.

That's interesting jetting for the 166. Going to need a bigger atomiser for the MHR177. That explains the pinging.

You have any other atomisers or needles?
Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:24 pm

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Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:24 pm linkquote
Managed to eliminate the pinging thanks to your advice.

Yeah I have a range of atomisers needles etc.
I keep going back to Malossi's native supplied carb settings.
They seem to have it perfect
Anything else I try looses performance runs hot or makes it flood.
Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:05 pm

Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:05 pm linkquote
Not sure it's eliminated, just gone away for now.

I do like the Malossi needle choice. Much more suited to higher rpm. The atomiser won't be so great for your MHR though. Even though is a smaller diameter needle its not enough with an AV260.

Not sure what you have but an AS262 needle would work better with the X3 needle.
Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:54 pm

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Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:54 pm linkquote
Thanks Jack I'll keep at it.
Just done a long sustained high speed run on the freeway it feels really nice. Just pulled in at home and pulled the plug



Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:24 pm

Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:24 pm linkquote
How many rpm you getting in top on the freeway run?

The fact that you can do sustained long wide open runs means that the WOT set up is fairly close. Plug colour says you are at least one jet over but that's a good place to be.

The rest of your plug says the bottom end is too rich. I guess it feels dull at lower rpm? Probably why you feel the need to reduce the pilot jet so far. Maybe better with the 23 degrees but not what it could be.

Still work to do. AS262 atomiser is still the next suggestion. And reduce timing to 21.
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:07 pm

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Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:07 pm linkquote
This is about 123-125km/h indicated which is around 110-115 Gps.
It will cruise happily around 100km/h Gps approx 6300rpm
I've reinstalled the 0.2 base gasket and measured my squish again. This time I wasn't using as much rtv silicone on the base gasket and it's brought my squish down to 0.77.
I've left my timing at 23 degrees and now the power is..let's say..a little full on.
It hits hard now when the power band hits and just keeps pulling.
BUT... now my clutch is slipping in 4th winding it on from 100 onwards.
Ok I guess I was asking for it.
So I'm using the sip ultra strong basket, cr80 plates and xxl sip springs mixed half with xl springs. Looks like I've gotta go all in with the xxl.
I think I need a xxxx beer!!



Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:51 am

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:51 am linkquote
Well she's doing all the right things now. Slipping clutch is a sure sign there is more power. My only concern is although now clearly running way better, its still not done. With that plug colour the economy is not what it could be for sure.

With the tighter squish, 21 degrees will be faster than 23.

Top end rpm should be a little higher too. How may rpm you get in 3rd or is that max for both gears?
Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:06 am

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Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:06 am linkquote
That rpm is more of a quick squirt in third but not letting it rev right out. It will rev to just shy of 8000rpm but I feel that's past it's peak and coming down the other side.
Ok I'll try it on 21 and report back after I've fitted the clutch springs.
Thanks for your advice it's really helped me dial it in nice
⬆️    About 9 months elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Mon May 27, 2019 11:39 pm

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Mon May 27, 2019 11:39 pm linkquote
Thought ide just pop this here for anyone interested in what a lighter flywheel/fanwheel does for performance, rideability etc.

Ide originally installed the 1.2kg version Vespower flywheel.
This has a larger fan and I only realised this after I recently ordered the MHR version which weighs in at approx 1kg with a smaller fanwheel. Somewhat reprofiled and a much smaller circumference.

The smaller lighter version has made my gear changes easier and downshifting and blipping the throttle makes the whole process seem more effortless.

My temps seem to be very similar but time will tell as I've only had it on for a couple of days.







⬆️    About 2 years elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:40 am

Hooked
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Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:40 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
If you have a big squish clearance (more than 1.0mm) the timing needs to be stronger at the top.
By stronger Jack, do you mean more advanced (higher number)?
Yes, bigger squish needs more timing advance or the mixture at the edge won't have time to add to the power.
A big squish is anything over 1.0mm in my book
Does that mean aim for a later spark...? (18degrees btdc?)
Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:28 pm

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Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:28 pm linkquote
I have had mine set at 19 for some time now and that's with 0.9 squish.
Runs nice and safe when on the pipe 6-7000rpm
Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:22 pm

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Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:22 pm linkquote
jimscoot wrote:
I have had mine set at 19 for some time now and that's with 0.9 squish.
Runs nice and safe when on the pipe 6-7000rpm
That's awesome...

Contemplating going back to a static setup... but I do enjoy the low end torque the variable gives

But I do have a lower compression setup and larger squish...
Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:45 pm

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Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:45 pm linkquote
108 wrote:
jimscoot wrote:
I have had mine set at 19 for some time now and that's with 0.9 squish.
Runs nice and safe when on the pipe 6-7000rpm
That's awesome...

Contemplating going back to a static setup... but I do enjoy the low end torque the variable gives

But I do have a lower compression setup and larger squish...
Give this video a look. Really informative and should answer a lot of your questions.
⬆️    About 4 months elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Mon May 31, 2021 8:56 am

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VESPA GL150
Joined: 31 May 2021
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Location: Lyon FRANCE
 
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Mon May 31, 2021 8:56 am linkquote
Hi everyone,
My name is Julien, I live in Lyon (France). I've been on the mod scene since the early 90's. I had a few scooters over the years but I only kept a GL150 (I also have a Lammy but it's probably not the best place to talk about it).
I'm actually writing on behalf of a friend of mine whose english is worse than mine. I'll try to make myself as clear as possible.
I'm using this post to ask you a few questions as it looks like you folks may have some similar engine set-ups.
My friend just reassembled an engine, everything is ok but he can't get the carb (PHB28) totally right : it's too rich at 3/4 throttle while the needle clip is on the upper end.
Here's the engine details :
- Malossi VR-ONE casing
- Reed valve X360 (that comes with the casing)
- MHR177 barrel
- stroke :57 mm
- squish : 0.7 mm
- BGM ignition (set at 18 °)
- SIP road XL exhaust
- PHB28 carb.

Carb set-up is :
-pilot jet : 50
- atomiser : AV 264
- Main jet : 125
- needle : X2
- standard slide

My friend spent hours trying to get the best carb setting-up but as i said before the best result he had so far was with the needle clip being on the upper end (which is not advised) while being too rich at 3/4 throttle.

What would be the right jetting set-up ?

Thanx for your time.
All the best
Julien
Mon May 31, 2021 3:35 pm

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Mon May 31, 2021 3:35 pm linkquote
Seems I'm very similar in setup to this one.
I'm the longstroke version 187.
Ive had great results with phbh30.
55slide
55pilot
X7 needle 3rd clip
AV266 atomiser
122main
6.5G float and float height set to spec (important and a key factor to get this right otherwise it will throw out all of your jetting and it's always out from factory 24mm).

I'm running a sip performance left hand and my jetting specs may differ on yours with the sip XL so fine tune accordingly.
Your timing set is good, is that variable ignition? I've set my timing around 17 static on a vespower variable. I've sacrificed a bit of torque but I'm able to cruise in the peak power curve without any detonation and have a sweet powerband with an exceptionally cool running 132degrees c, CHT. This is constant cruising fast freeway. An absolute joy to overtake cars in the fast lane!!!!
Your squish is probably a little tight and I've always gone with a tight squish but I've had great results with a squish around 1.2
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:43 am

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VESPA GL150
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Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:43 am linkquote
Thanx a lot for your reply, this has been quick and helpful. I have a couple of questions though :
- as for the float height : you are talking about specs to refer to, but i have none. Could you please enlighten me ?
- What are the exact measuring points for the float height ?

(And yes it's a variable ignition).
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:48 am

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Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:48 am linkquote
This should help



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