Modern Vespa

I picked up my copy of the NY Times this morning to see a scooter on the front page:


"Pretty cool," I thought. And then looking at the picture some more, I imagined how much grief you'd get for riding three on a scoot in the US, much less no gear and helmetless. With your kids!

And this got me thinking about the huge differences in the amount of risk we accept in the US vs. elsewhere. Where I live anything European is considered "the best", up to and including dishwashers and vacuum cleaners! Yet American's don't embrace the scooter the way Europeans do. In Italy, people commute to work in business suits and dresses, with not much more gear than a half helmet and sunglasses. Here I feel vaguely guilty if I go out riding in jeans, un-armored leather jacket, full face helmet, boots and gloves.

And people around here really like the Vespa; I get comments on it all the time. But if I suggest back that they get one for themselves I often get the, "oh, they're too dangerous | my brother in law almost killed himself |blah blah" responses. And they climb back in their land yacht. Likewise, if they've got a nitwit teenager, they put them in a Hummer instead of a 50cc scoot. Somehow most of Italy gets through adolescence on scooters, and they start riding at something like 14 there.

So I'm wondering if this is all about tolerance for risk, fear, avoidance of the unknown, or is there something else at work?

in the US it's sissy like to drive a scooter/moped....for a few reasons:

1. they're slow(er)
2. they make a high pitched sound (higher than macho motorcycles)
3. they tell others, "i can't afford a car (yet i'm too rich for a bike)"

that's all i can think of right now...

we can all admit scooters are fun, but why doesn't everyone drive one? because they're plain SISSY.

I sence this going downhill......

R

agreed.

I am probably richer becuase I run a scooter:
- less capital cost
-Less environmental cost
- less running cost.

And My GTS is usually faster that most others on the road (commute was 30 mins, now average of 15)

They can sneer at me, and call me a sissy, but my trip to work cost three bucks, theirs probably 20 or 30, a week.

I really wasn't trying to start a flame war, just a discussion on why the scooter thing hasn't caught on in the US, or even in the bay area, where all things green and Euro are held in high regard. It seems like all the stars are aligned, and yet it isn't happening. So I figure there must be something deeper going on to prevent it.

Maybe it is the status thing. But hell, Vespas aren't cheap!?! Maybe we need to get Ed Begley and Leonardo DiCaprio riding them.

Not to offend anyone here, because it's not my intent, but I get "fag" and "queer" a lot when I ride my scooter....once I even got a :honk honk: "jackass."

I think that scooters are seen here in the states as effeminate for whatever reason; but just like soccer, no matter how hard David Beckham and Vespa USA can try to attract US buyers, it's always going to be american football and big ol' Harleys, plain and simple.

The best we can do as scooterists is be confident in the knowledge that we are a part of something greater than the american cultural identity, that we share a bond with people all over the world, that we are more cultured and more open to other parts of the world than the average joe. Ride on and be proud. Morrissey put it best when he said "America is not the world;" truer words have never been spoken.

Didn't the Poms see an increase in scooter sales when the Naked Chef got all lubbelly jubbelly over a Vespa?

I believe the issue is that most countrys now associate vehicles with wealth, and see scooters as a poor mans mode.

I used to work for a company that had a couple of Vietnamese labourers: they would work all the overtime in the world so they could send decent scooters back to family- a big status symbol.

The shift is happening in China and India- no-one wants a scoot becuase it shows you are not doing well......

Honestly, I figure our love of cars has something to do with the Cold War. We started building highways and interstates so people could get out of the city in the event of a nuclear attack. The result was massive suburbanization, and we became an commuter/highway/interstate society.

I figure there are other things involved: poor public transportation, materialism, barons of the automotive industry, a bunch of men with little penises, etc.

The selloff of systems such as buses and streetcars, in the US anyway, was happening well before WW2.

Here, our Gummits were offered the world by Chrysler GM and Mobil to pullout the streetcar system in favour of buses and cars!

Clever marketting though!

Maybe so; I don't know. But before WWII, people generally lived so close to work it didn't matter yet. Massive suburbanization happened after the war, as did massive car ownership.

The picture says it all -- scooters are seen as transportation and most people view 4 wheels as "better" than 2. Real scoots (and I'm not including maxis which are automatic motorcycles) aren't crotch rockets. Instead you sit upright with your gear in a topcase, rack, under the seat or hanging from a bag hook. There is no "sex appeal" in riding an appliance. Harleys and crotch rockets are not appliances -- they also aren't really transportation in the same sense as a scoot because they are hobbies/toys. A friend of mine owns a Harley and has ridden since he was 16 and he's almost 60 now. He told me not to get a cycle if I want to commute because a scoot made far more sense in that it has storage and is designed to keep you working clothes clean.

Americans are spoiled -- they have the cheapest fuel in the industrial world and a public funding mechanism completely skewed to building bigger faster roads. They piss and moan when gas gets over 3 bucks a gallon and their 10 mpg urban assault vehicle costs $100 to fill up. Those folks won't change - maybe their kids will or maybe they won't. There is no place for simple practical transportation in that mix. People who ride scoots are a little oddball, like those who go to soccer matches. I do both, and I enjoy both. That's enough for me.

Won't disagree with you there.

After the war though, becuase much of the mass transit infrastructure had been removed there was little choice. Car sales also fed the factories which created employment. blah blah blah....

The schmucks that ran gummit here did the removal after the war. The systems were run into the ground with all the extra traffic, and of course the car and oil companies sold their roads, cars and buses.

Ironically, one of the lines promoting buses was flexibility of routing. Even today, 50 years after trams went, buses run on EXACTLY THE SAME routes!

I think its sad that other countries haven't learnt from our mistakes with efficient clean forms of public transport, and are making them again.

Word.

I would write something worthy if I was confident you are not Michael Moore the movie maker.

I think that the difference is that in other contries, two wheel transportation is alot more prevailant and accepted. People in other contries are used to and more aware of two wheels since there are more. If more people here would ride, it would eventually become safer > after a likely long harsh curve. This is just like my POV on the helmet law:
Make it the riders choice to wear one and after awhile there would be only safe riders on the road

Thank gosh I dont give a cupcake about, or live by what other people think. That would suck. what a way to live.

Well, I happen to like this thread for one.

Europe was ravaged after WW2. A few enterprising lads saw the need for cheap motorized transportation.

The US was untouched after WW2, and the 1950s & 60s were our golden years. No need for scooters. Demand drives supply.

So that's one reason.

When people comment on my scooter and I say "You should get one!", I get the same response every. Single. Time. --> "Too dangerous." or similar. To a large extent, I don't blame them. I read somewhere (Hurt Report?) that one is 1200% more likely to die in a motorcycle crash (which presumably includes scooters) than a car crash. So these people figure: "I can afford to drive a car, which is more safe, so why bother risking my life with a scooter to save a few bucks?"

From a common sense standpoint, we have to give it to the cagers. We have more fun, and we save money, but we are risking our lives to a much greater extent.

In Europe, gas is MUCH more expensive; at least 2-4X as much as here. More people are forced to take measures such as scooting. Also, in Europe, they are much better drivers, on the whole. In India, probably not.

In another forum, someone posted that in Holland, people do things on bicycles that we consider crazy: ride w/o helmets, ride 2 or 3 to a bike, carry a crapload of luggage, ride in business attire, etc. But it is a HUGE crime to hit a cyclist, and is considered the cager's fault 100% of the time. (fair or not, it seems to work, and they are not fat like we are!)

Despite all this, many countries view the USA as "The Best Country in the World". We have something they often don't. A choice.

When I evangelize about scooters, I often hear things like "I'd love to get one, but I can't haul my kids to soccer practice in it."

Scooters and motorcycles are EVERYWHERE in San Francisco, and SF also has the fewest children (per capita) of all American cities. Coincidence?

The suburban growth got a start after WWII, but it didn't get reach its peak until school desegregation happened. Interesting to think about how the prejudices of our recent ancestors have deeply affected the way our communities have been built in the past half century.

Besides fuel prices, the main reason people like me who live in cities ride a scooter to work is traffic congestion during peak hours. My daily commute takes at least 30 minutes longer by car than with the scooter. The train takes even longer.

Modern Vespas and similar scooters are particularly suited for big cities in that they can be ridden just as comfortably in the greater metro area as in the thick of downtown. You can commute a fair distance to work and also shop or run errands around town with the same vehicle -I park and pop in and out of stores and establishments taking no longer than the time it takes to pull my helmet off and put it under the seat. Running errands in the city by car OTOH is a slow and costly proposition, with the traffic and the difficulty of parking.

I must say, however, that it helps considerably when you have strong motorcycle awareness among drivers like we have here in Barcelona. I can't imagine it would be the same if cars weren't constantly on the lookout for two wheeled vehicles splitting lanes and filtering between them at stop lights.

What countries do you mean by this? Most people on this forum come from democracies, so far as I can tell.

I think part of the problem is with reputation, at least it is in my neck of the woods. For the longest time, 49cc'ers were the convicted DUI folk who still needed to get to work a couple of times a week. Instant assumptions were made when seeing anyone riding a scooter.

I ride the GT200, but people don't understand what the 200 means. They hear that word "scooter" and assume small little machine drunks use to get back and forth to work and so even if riding one seems like fun, they won't ride because they don't want the association.

As more and more "sober" people are choosing to ride, and as the public is slowing becoming more educated regarding scooters in general, I see this mindset changing. It has helped, too, that local laws are changing and the DUI crowd can no longer ride even the 49 cc.

In 2000, I'd go riding and see maybe one other "scooter" in a week. Now, I see dozens in a day. I think the general public is being forced to acknowledge that all these people can't be drunks! That and the fact that these "scooters" today are keeping up with, and outrunning, traffic.

Just a thought, but keep in mind, I could be full of crap.

Having lived in Hawaii and Europe the streets are set up differently than on the US mainland.

Cars are a challenge to use in both locations because of narrow streets/high traffic volume (LA without freeways!) and large cars are all but useless. Bicycles and scooters are common in Germany as primary commuting vehicles, Hawaii you see a much higher percentage of scooters than bikes.

American society is all about convenience and independence, and the personal car enhances that freedom of mobility. The larger cars are a reflection of larger roads, consumer demand, wealth of the average person and to some extent legislative requirements.

Housing is done differently here also -- a single family house with a yard is a bit of an oddity here rather than the standard. Also, mortgages are only 10 years (can't do a 30 year here I am told) and property taxes start at 10 years. It's very different, and results in a "renter" culture. Hawaii is simular because of the expense of housing relative to income.

I prefer the American lifestyle and society to German, but my German neighbors would have no interest in an "American" lifestyle. It comes down to personal choice about lifestyles.

You can replicate a European lifestyle in some American Cities, but you can't replicate an American suburb in Europe -- and yeah, I like suburban living.

True- even pedestrians are at their own peril when it comes to cyclists. but it works and works well, along with their stunningly brilliant light and heavy rail system. Apparently Austria (Australia) is hosting OPEC (its APEC) at the moment .

I like the US, I think it is a very beautiful country, and I have met and established some enduring and valued freindships with Americans: some of the most warm and generous people around. My choice is Austria, oops, Australia, as "The Best Country in the World". but I suppose I am biased. I reckon most Australians would agree with me?

Be nice if there were more trams and scooters though.

I do like the lead pic in this thread.

Regarding the picture that started this thread (very interesting thread, BTW), when I took the MSF course in July I had a nice conversation with a man from India who was also taking the course. He said that, due to the congestion in the cities and the really bad conditions of roads in general, average speeds were much lower than in the USA.

On the subject of the relative machismo of scooterists, he said that his mother (in India) was afraid that he would never get married. "Why don't you get a scooter," she said, "There always seems to be a girl riding on the back of them."

That's exactly what I was going to say. Which is partly why I had that thread the other day about scooter vs. bicycle safety: if you don't have a 250 cc scoot and you're not traveling highways, do you really need full-on motorcycle safety gear? It all depends where you live and how you use your scooter.

We Americans are so spoiled--we have no idea of the difference between wants and needs. I know people who decide to have kids and, after the first one pops out, they go from a normal car to a hulking SUV. "We need space for the kid's stuff." Huh? My parents had 5 kids, and only after the 4th one was born did they move from a VW Beetle (!) to a station wagon. People just have way too much crap today.

For city errands, I use my scoot. When I need to carry stuff around I use my "SUV": a 4-cylinder VW Jetta station wagon (a glorified 4-door hatchback ) that gets great gas mileage.

Oh, and in terms of being called gay or a fag: that depends on where you live, too. Being in a US state that's no longer living in the dark ages helps. I've never yet been called those names while riding my scoot.

Not that it would surprise me, mind you. As I am one. In fact my boyfriend and I were "hit on" by a guy at a gas station the other day.

Must've had the same parents.

Our family cars got smaller as the family got bigger - station wagon when we were still nappy soilers, and by the time I was 196cm, we'd moved to the tiniest Datsun money could buy. I am sure my dad tried his best to get the smallest car on the market, and succeded.

Oh ya, well we had an 8 member family and all fit in a Pinto! So Im cooler!

Anyone that drives an SUV Should be whipped I say!

And all us lazy spoiled Americans should give up what we have to be like the rest of the world and humble , therefore better!

This is quite true of this country as well. Not to sound like Mr. High-and-Mighty-Ladies-Man, but the scooter is a definite babe magnet...and it doesn't attract the kind of girls I'd want to stay away from either.

Yeah, by the time I was a teenager, the 70's gas crisis hit the US and we were back down to a Toyota Corona--luckily 2 of the 5 had flown the nest by then. But that allowed me to learn to drive with a stick shift. Too bad my sister totalled the car a few years later.

This is true, when I was talking to people in China about it , they couldn't understand why I would want a scooter since I could afford a car.

another difference is distance. in rural england, germany, france, etc. it seems like every 3 miles or what not there's a town. the closest town to me is 18 miles. go out west, it's 30 or 40 miles. scooters are a lot more friendly doing little hops.

The reason scooters don't sell in the United States is
they have no rep or lifestyle that goes with them.
There is no sizzle to sell with the steak. Consmers buy
sizzle. Harleys have sizzle. Look at the riders all dressed in
black and their Harley gear. The boots the brain trays with
stickers all over. The rep is you drive a Harley your cool.
Scooters no rep. You go to rallies and you see from punk to
nerd. Hard to sell the sizzle of those two groups.
If we want Vespa to ever be big in the States we will
have to develop a style that people latch on too.
Sorry It can be saving gas or ATGAT, even if those are
good ideas.
We need a cool factor and a national ads out of Vespa.

If you have the disposable income to buy expensive things, go for it.

It's just that I'd prefer to spend my disposable income on, say, a beautiful handcrafted item so that the money goes toward supporting a human being. Using that money to support an SUV instead means supporting a giant corporation and destroying the environment, neither of which really helps your average Joe or Susan or Giuseppe or Ngyuen or whomever. Or you or me.

I suppose thats why I have a Scooter - I can afford the car, but can put the money to better use, much better use.

I've owned Four cars from new - thats about $110k up front. if I'd bought a scoot from car 1 - I'd have a nice little nest egg in the bank.

I track my money, and its interesting seeing the shift since the cage (long paid for, nearly due to be scrapped) has been parked. in fact its frightening. the thing costs $1200 per annum to sit there.

Weeeeeeeeeeeee! I wondered who would be the first to contribute something useless!

Back to the topic at hand, however....

There are some really intriguing arguments on both sides of this issue on this thread, which has been a fascinating read. I certainly agree with the notion that in general we here in the US have too much stuff. Please note that "We" includes me. I suppose it's one of the side-effects of a good standard of living and a lot of room to grow. As responsible citizens I think many of us do our best to pare things down now and again, which is what a lot of us here on MV have done by getting a Modern scoot, as we wanted something reliable to use as transportation and to reduce our use a bit (OK, the fun of it ain't bad either).

I can certainly see the other side of the argument as well. Just because we USED TO be able to have smaller vehicles and perhaps had fewer things to do with our kids that involved hauling them and their equipment about, doesn't mean that was the best way to do things. If one extends the mindset that the 'convention' is the best method, where would we be in terms of children's development, health, technology, and etc? Just saying.....

All in all, a very interesting topic!

Actually, I did just see a full-page Vespa ad for a GTS in the centerfold of a local lifestyle magazine here in the Twin Cities.

In the US, Vespa seems to be pushing the bigger scoots. Bigger is better.

I think that actually happened much earlier in the thread. Home of the Brave, Land of the Free, something like that.

I think traffic speed has something to do with
the 250 selling well here and the sales push by Vespa.
We have to take out the politics of SUVs,global warming,
saving gas, spoiled americans, not sexy at all.
You never here a Harley rider say "I ride my Harley
cause it saves gas and helps reduce global warming".

Well, I guess the question is:

Do we want more scooters to sell so that Vespa becomes richer and then the fad passes and people have even more useless junk in their 4-car garages?

Or do we want more scooters to sell so that we get more scooter-friendly communities?

I'm all for the latter.