Modern Vespa

deleted, double post

Last edited by sdjohn on Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:36:53 +0000; edited 1 time

Do they speak English at 10 Pollici and are they willing to ship to the USA? Was just looking at their site for a VMC ignition for the small frame...

How about this?? A "newish" VMC 177 kit for the 200 cases...

He (whoever it was, can't recall) does write in English but I think it helped to get an Italian friend to write to him. Gave me shipping price to Oz that was around 150 euros iirc... eg SIP would be maybe 40 or 50. But do contact him, he's very good to deal with. When a clutch was out of stock, he offered me a 15% more expensive one for the same price. Good guy.

Last edited by Ginch on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:15:23 +0000; edited 1 time

Wow, that's weird. More info Chrys?

Struggling to see the benefit of that 177 kit for a 200. Ok, better crank and inlet and longer conrod, but why not just use a 210/221/215/225 kit if you have 200 cases?

I received a reply from http://www.avotecnica.com/ they recommend the aluminum due to shipping weight of cast iron to the US.

2 kit Stelvio alluminium, fusion head, 470 euros delivery included (NO VAT)
5 kit Stelvio alluminium, fusion head, 1070 euros delivery included (NO VAT)

$520.47 / 2 = $260.24 each US$

$1184.89 / 5 = $236.98 each US$

Shipping using a medium size USPS box is $15.00, even if I bought 5 to reduce shipping costs from a single unit, I would have to resell them for $252.00 to break even. That's a lot of work to save $40.00, if I bought one and paid full shipping.

Hello, i have the same setup , can i know what is your jetting?

I tried to buy one iron kit from them over a year ago, paid for it. They never shipped it and refunded me after over a month of trying to figure out what was going on. They said local customs and postal restrictions made it unaffordable to ship to the USA. Was a bit frustrated they didn't just cancel and refund it right away instead of having to put quite a bit of effort into trying to get them to communicate.

At that time only the aluminum kit was available through sip, and the iron kit pricing was deep discounted only on their site which is why o tried to buy through them. Now sip sells both so there is no reason to purchase direct from manufacturer anymore especially given their difficulty shipping to usa.

I just bought an aluminum kit from sip for my p125 engine. Came in a week no problems!

I Just got the SuperG kit, and i'm testing diferents jets. What's your actual jetting ?

It's sitting on the shelf. That project won't start for months or a year.

What does your porting look like? Is it matched? Is it half-assed? Did you just mount the cylinder to the case with no porting? What is the rest of your setup? That will get a better ballpark idea. Photo attached is the porting I did on my last VMC 177.

Yes, i had ported the case. My setup is

VMC 177 SuperG
60mm Stroke Mazzi Crank
24/24E with 2mm drilled Passage
Main Gear - Cluth DRT 23 - Stock 68 tooth
BGM Fast Flow
Scootopia SR150 Big Box (i have a Malossi Pipe waiting his turn to be mount after a get the jetting right)

Currently using Idle 55/160 , screw 2.75 turns out , Main Stack AC140/BE3/Mj120 and i feel a little bog between 1/4 to half throttle. I didn't WOT yet. Spark plug is Just black





Last edited by mendozaram on Sun, 27 Dec 2020 23:07:13 +0000; edited 1 time

I would think you are in the ballpark with your 140.

I would be concerned that the hole in the float bowl at 2mm may be restricting a 140 main jet. To test this - you can put in a much larger jet - like a 150 or larger - and make sure that you can feel a lot of change at wide open throttle. There should be a size of main jet that is just so rich it is gurgling and wont rev out. This means your main jet is controlling the richness - not the 2mm hole.

Hmmm. CM - What should the carb (any carb for that matter) be drilled out to? I've been drilling mine (20/20's and 24/24s) to 2.0mm. What you're saying is questioning why I didn't go bigger..

it's AC140 - BE3 - MJ120 .... I'd changed the Air Corrector to 160 today. It's feels better. Now Main stack is AC160-BE3-MJ120 , Idle 55/160 Screw 2 1/2 turns out. Sparkplug still Black. I have another idle jet 45/140 but i don't know if is too lean to use it because i'm on Break-In period

Mendoza, can you post up a photo of your plug? Are you inspecting the plug after normal shut down or when at high RPM shut down?

The trend seems to be moving towards smaller air corrector to keep the WOT mixture as rich as possible I'm using a 120AC.

Next step is to find the sputter point with the main jet, find the largest main jet that causes sputter basically from 1/4 throttle then back down from there.

Once you have that somewhat good then fine tuning with atomiser and pilot jet.

Normal shutdown

Hmm

Is that a long reach spark plug? Is long reach plug required? What is the heat rating? What is your timing?

Plug looks as you described. How many miles are on the plug?

What is the squish gap?

Need to know what size main jet floods out and will not run clean. On my Pinasco 190cc seems 132 main jet is that point it can not pull past the sputter so I know this is the ceiling. I am currently testing with a 120AC-BE4-128MJ.

I started with BE3 atomiser then BE5 then BE4 to richen up the mid range.

Will need some plug chops at higher RPM to see plug condition.

Tis a puzzlement. That plug reads very rich but I don't think your jetting is rich at all for a 187. Might even be a bit lean. Only things I can think of are the spark plug might be too cold or you might be sucking some oil from the gearbox.

VMC recommend B9ES, this one is B8ES, little hotter than B9. Timing is set @ 18°.

100 miles with this new Cylinder. Plug was used. I can put it a new one B8ES.

Temps here is around 26-30°C.

Squish is 1.5mm (VMC recommends 1.8mm)

Right now i'm with AC140-BE3-MJ120, and has a little bog trying WOT at 3rd. I didnt full WOT yet. Cylinder has only 80-100 Miles on it, maybe less than that. Today i change the idle jet from 55/160 to 45/140. I'll see the plug with a short ride on it

Last edited by mendozaram on Tue, 29 Dec 2020 16:55:44 +0000; edited 1 time

Hi, sucking oil is discarted because everything was check when the case was splitted to Port.

I'm a little scared because i'm has seen people here with similar setups using mj125 or bigger.

This is the plug now with Idle Jet 45/140 , screw 3 turns out. My Exhaust is an Malossi Pipe

Get a new plug in pronto so you can evaluate the new set up. 8 should be OK for now not sure on temp value until jetting is better. I don't see the crush washer are you using a CHT temp ring?

1.5mm seems good for squish.

Suggest richen up the main jet until you find the sputter, 120mj might be a bit weak looking at your porting and build spec. You need to know where that is, where is it?

Positive engine has no leaks? Port on fly side next to cylinder stud looks skinny.

Crush washer is on it, i recheck, But is too flat.. Ook ok. I have a new B8ES , i'll put on it.

I'd try mj125 and has sputters everywhere, so i went down to mj120, and has Just a small bog trying a short WOT at 3rd.

No leaks.

Yes, looks skinny But i fullfilled both sides with JB Weld

I'd be happy with your last pics of plug if "feel" and "sounds" are good too.
I stopped re-using plugs a few years ago on the advice of a tuning guru. They may be good for 20,000 miles but the crush washer is a use once only thing. The boxes mine come in even have a pictorial guide on the side, basically snug up and then half to three quarter turns. (NGK).
Of course I do use re-use them if the situation needs it with no worries but at 2 quid a plug....better to be safe.

Agreed that color looks much better in second set of photos. You should still replace that plug though because it remains encrusted with soot from before.

If the scooter runs smoothly up to 1/3 throttle, then the 45/140 idle jet is pretty close. Might be a little lean if it takes 3 turns on the mixture screw to trim out, but that is not a big deal.

Conventional wisdom says your AC140/BE3/MJ120 main stack is too lean for a 187. It will be interesting to see how that ends up once you get the scooter run in enough to start bombing around at WOT.

mendozaram - Hebert has some good advice there.
Keys:
1. Stick with one air corrector for time being. Jumping around can have big changes and you are in break in. Suggest 140 or 120 and just stick with it.
2. Hebert's suggestion on splutter: Keep making the MJ larger until the scooter wont rev up because it is too rich. Then start walking it down. This way you will be moving from too rich to a more lean, optimized jet, without running the risk of a very lean jet hurting your engine before you have discovered the right one.
3. Best read of plug color comes from running wide open throttle for 10 seconds before pushing the kill switch and coasting to a stop. Let the motor cool a little bit, and then pull the plug out and photograph. If you have a slightly inclined road - this is even better in my experience.

I believe you said you have about 100 miles on it.
Everyone here has a different opinion about how long to break in a new motor.
Ask 10 people - get 10 different answers.
Some would say you are safe to start going to wide open throttle.
Some would say you are not even close yet.

In my opinion - once you reach 7 heat cycles - where you have ridden and gotten it fully hot - and then cooled off - you are safe to run some wide open throttle tests to perform 3 above. Not sure if you are there yet.

Hope that's helpful.
Keep posting pics.
-CM

Ok. Already put a Fresh new B8ES on it. I was asking FMP thru his YouTube channel too and he recommend something about ac160/beX/mj140. I had try one MJ140 and the Bike Just doesnt rev anything.

I Will start from scratch today... 55/160 and AC140/BE3 and some biggers jet than mj120. 140 means 1.4mm right ? 120 it's 1.2mm , and so. I'm working drilling old jets, in My country is hard to find jets.

I have more than 7 heat cycles, lets try a WOT today. I'll keep you informed

New B8ES. This is 10km city ride , some short WOTs. Idle 55/160 2 1/2 turns out. AC140-BE3-MJ130. I feel splutter trying WOT at any gear and new plug is starting to get Black color

Im going to try an AC120 that i found today. I'm really thinking about downgrade the carb to a 20-20E.

Mendozaram your latest plug photo looks clearer.

It's going to take trial and error before success. I would stick with the 24mm carb and keep notes.

Try to get a pack of main jets 118-138 this way they should be sequential in sizing. The main jet is the starting point on tuning the si carb. I am not willing to test my precision with a drill bit to this tolerance.

Get the 120 air corrector.

Get a BE4 and BE5.

You will probably require some pilot jets too 55-160 might be too rich it is what a P200 is using. This is an area I'm not good at predicting. I am currently testing a 48-160 pilot that I drilled the 140 air venturi to 160/5. Drilling the air part is simple and not as delicate as a fuel passage. Waiting to test a 45-160 next.

What is your air filter setup?

I agree with Hibbert, you don't need to change carbs. A 24-24 should be fine with a 187.

How does the scooter feel at partial throttle? If the only issue is splutter at WOT, I would leave everything else alone and just start walking down the main jet.

Thanks for your replies

- I need patiente.... hehehe... I can Buy a pack of MJ , But that will take at least a month to get it in My country. D:

- Already got in My hands the AC120, i'll test tomorrow with it

- i have a E3 atomizer un hands, looks pretty close to BE5. Maybe a little Richer

- I have the IJ 45-140 , i'll test tomorrow paired with AC120 and MJ120

- Air Filter is a LML Deblued and heart holes drilled

Last edited by mendozaram on Thu, 31 Dec 2020 00:49:53 +0000; edited 2 times

Feels i little rich maybe until 1/3 throttle But rideable, beyond that, splutters and feel pretty Bad. I'll try to record a sound of it

Tomorrow i'll try the AC120 combo. But i have to Buy a set of MJ and wait a month to get it. Until that, i'm working almost blind , with drilled MJ D:

Short WOT at 3rd. WOT shutdown. Jetting is 45/140 3 turns out, AC140- E3 - 120mj.

I was testing AC120 but doesnt rev good at all with BE3 and MJ116.

Apart from the plug, how does the scooter feel now? Any bogging under acceleration or splutter at WOT?

To my eye, that plug reads lean, which is what I would expect from an MJ120 on a 187. Have you tried an AC140/E3/MJ125 combo yet? That gives you an air tube that puts you near the midddle of the rich-lean spectrum, a mixer tube that does the same, and a main jet that is toward the bottom end of what I expect you would need for a 187.

Not surprised at your results with the AC120, but the AC120 itself is not the culprit. It is the BE3/MJ116 combo, which, even with an AC120, is almost certainly too lean for a 187.

Hello everyone. I'm waiting a set of Main jet but that will take a month. Right now i'm on IJ 55/160 2.25 turns out , Main Stack AC140 - E3 - MJ (Something between 120 & 130) remember i had to drill some MJ to test because is hard to find jets here in My country. I'd recorded a vídeo , let me read your comments about it.

I'm new with this "Art of Tunning" and i'm still confused with things like how is a sputter at wot or similar

https://youtu.be/fukhONP7z_U

I attached some plug pics after that ride. Normal shutdown.









Last edited by mendozaram on Sat, 09 Jan 2021 20:54:42 +0000; edited 1 time

Plug looks perfect. The video sounds good too, except you can hear splutter at WOT, so your main stack is rich.

Plan A would be to try a smaller main jet. In your case, though, you don't really know what you have now and it's hard to get more.

Plan B would be to try your AC160. That probably will get rid of the splutter, but needs to be monitored carefully to ensure it isn't so lean the motor overheats and seizes.

Plan C would be to try your BE3 mixer. That will make things a little leaner at WOT, but mostly it will make things leaner in the midrange, which may not be what you want.

I would order several main jets between 120 and 130 and then, carefully, go with Plan B until they are delivered.

Nice video Mendozaram scoot sounds pretty good. Sounds like you are getting some sputter towards the end at the higher RPM.

I'm learning like you please take my comments with caution. Not sure where the E3 emulsion tube lies in the line-up with B series maybe BE5?

Running pretty crisp 0-1/2 throttle might try to en-richen with 120 Air corrector and possible B4 emulsion tube.

Plug is looking good. Be careful extended WOT runs in 4th gear can reveal a different story.

Hi Hibbert and Kowalsky , thanks for your comments. I had try , because it was spluttering , to give more Air, i drop an AC160-BE3 and the same mainjet from the last vídeo. And i felt it was worst.

Drop a bigger jet which i measured with a Medical needle , and there was bogging everywhere

So, in this vídeo. The setup is the same Drilled mainjet from the last vídeo But AC160-BE3

https://youtu.be/39BtjyCBqnc