Modern Vespa

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2019-bmw-c400gt-scooter/
got unveiled at the EICMA motorcycle show in Milan.....
Yes, it's not a Veapa, but I put it on here, so we can look what is new.....

Nice looking scooter.

Let's see:
Increased wind protection. Check.
34 horsepower. Check.
CVT. Check.
Lots of storage. Check.

Wait a minute. They're describing my 2008 MP3 400.

Harbinger's next Malossi project.

Not my style... Just too many arbitrary angles. Beemers are great machines but it looked a bit contrived design wise. Thier earlier scoots were more to my liking but guessing they are trading on the success of the GS series with the angular panels... Just looks a bit over the top. Nut as much as the Italjet Dragster though.

Looks like a fussy T-Max... I think a bigger BMW, but more of the GS adventure bike styling may attract a different and stronger audience... They can't compete with the Japanese 'Stealth" designs.. Not that I like the stealth look...Maybe a little more restraint and a little more capacity in the engine and an ability to carry a full face helmet and luggage would be a BMW first.
Gass silvermachine gts 250

I like it, and I like also that they are offering a scooter with some long-distance rider protection & comfort tweaks.

Now, if only BMW and others would import and actively promote scoots like this here. And I mean, Canada.

For sure, but if they do, the prices will be over the moon.

The BMW 400 thread on ADV battle scooters has Canucks saying they are there now or soon. The price points are similar to a GTS.
I'm no fan of the angular styling either but that 34hp has my attention.
I am not into the gizmos like screens for gauges and connectivity, so on.

I thought the same about the looks of BMWs other scooters. But seeing it in person at the dealership, all that went out the window. It's a beautiful machine. But, having owned BMW motorcycles up to the 2011 MY, I'd never own a BMW car or motorcycle that wasn't under warranty. Unless I got one dirt cheap and then could afford dealer provided repairs without crying.

The C400X is £6199 in the UK which converts to roughly US $8043. If that holds true, not that bad considering the technology.

I believe that is called the C650GT. I have and honestly am very happy with it. TONS of storage and yes a (XL) full face fits under the seat should you not want a top case.

That BMW 400 "moon price" is about exactly the same as the Vespa GTS.

USA tariffs may raise the MSRP in the USA given the place of mfg is China.
Maybe they'd gain marketplace position if they'ed ship the parts to another country and assemble them? Like the BMW G650GS I just sold. Chinese engine from the same place then German assy..

I visited a BMW dealer yesterday to specifically look at the BMW 650GT. It is a gorgeous bike. Beautiful looks and well designed. I've read everything I can about them. I read almost universally positive things with very few negatives. The negatives are mostly around about a couple of mediocre design issues (glove box and air deflectors) and the maintenance cost. Almost all the maintenance till you get to 24k miles is oil/filter and resetting the maintenance interval alert timer. Except for resetting the maintenance timer, the oil is easy to change. You gotta use their (expensive) oil to maintain the warranty.

The dealer I went to offered to sell me a brand new 2018 at a demo price. It wasn't much of a drop, maybe enough to almost pay for a BMW top case. They are motivated to moving the 2018's this time of year. The warranty is 3 years/36k miles. Excellent!!

I haven't ridden one yet but hope to tmw.

I was not too fond of the sharp lines of the first gen BMW 650 scooters (2012-2016) and there were lots of reported problems so shied away from them. The 2nd gen (2017-2019) look much better in IMO and don't have the problems of the first gen, at least from everything I've read.

I've been hoping for years that Vespa would come out with something with a bit more power (not much more, but some), more comfortable ergonomics, something Ms Miguel would enjoy riding on (she hates the seat and having to put her legs around the fat fenders) and I hate the passenger pegs hitting me in the legs when I stop and put my feet down. I'd also like a bit more comfort and and creature comforts. The BMW 650GT has them. The one thing I don't like about the BMW is its 6" wider than the GTS/GTV and I wonder how that will affect lane-splitting (since I live in a state that allows it). But I'm sure I'll get used to it if I get one. Its certainly not as wide as an HD bagger and I've often followed them when lane splitting and they don't have problems.

Best
Miguel

The problem is that under the Vespa umbrella, they're locked into the thin legshield/wide false cowls design. It's what Vespas are.

They might make the bikes you want, but if they do they'll be (or are) branded as Piaggios.

Agree completely with you. I love the Vespa style. I was just hoping and dreaming!

Best
Miguel

And one of the things that worries me is that there's no very active MV-like forums on the BMW scooters.

Best
Miguel

The BMW uk website is listing the 400GT at a PROPROSED £7024 "on the road",i'm surprised I thought it would have bee £8K plus

BMWMOA has an active forum with a scooter section-it gets much less play than the much more popular GS and larger MC's. Many brand riders are long distance or off road riders. Look to the BMW MC training center in SC and the focus it has. The MOA has a miles award with many riders who ride long distances annually-50k plus is very common. That's about all you see @ a national rally where they ride in from all over, it's "GS mania" in that brand.
It's been said that BMW dealers cannot sell their scooters and try to avoid them on showrooms when possible-it's moire about the USDA not being a scooter place than the product lacking.
Forcing BMW oil for warranty is not true even if they said it was. Lots of proof that's not happening at dealers of all brands of motor vehicles sold in the USA.
A guy from ADV, BMWBud just sold a low miles BMW 650 scooter as he got his hip fixed and back on MC's. He said he'd never seen one, or at least for some years, at Gateway BMW, a large dealer in STL not far from him.
I never had interest in their 650 scoots as too large for my taste. The 400 is a bit more palatable for my inseam and arm length. After many years of BMW cars and MC's I don't typically go to a dealer for anything but can attest that most brands have similar flat rates in cars and PTW's. The actual service schedule's do vary with the design. As an e.g. most anything with hydraulic brakes is a 2 year fluid service and if fluid cooled another 2 yr service that "someone" will perform.
The BMW 400 scooter will not likely be profoundly more popular in the USA(than the 650) other than the reality of an aging boomer group who might opt for a scoot. Most of them go for a Burgman or ? given the dealer networks in place.
I really enjoy my GTS but other than combo of aging and short stature, I'd probably still be on a MC?, not that I'm not a happy Vespa owner!

You're right, Kantuckid. BMWMOA members put some serious miles on their bikes. I've been an active member of the BMWMOA for almost twenty years. Ever since they loaned me a RT-P for a week when I was still working as a LEO, (and riding a Harley-Davidson police bike)

If anyone's been to one of their rallies, the one thing that will strike you is the advancing age of the devotees. Everyone it seems, is over 55. I'm an officer of a local BMW rider group and if anyone under 35 yrs old ever walked into a meeting, I'd probably faint. Just about every member is 50+. One member that I've spoken of before is 80yoa, and only started riding at age 55 but has ridden over a million miles, and just shy of a million on the same BMW motorcycle.

My point in all of this is to say that yes, they are a dedicated group, no posers that put on 800 miles in a riding season and then park it for the winters. And, as these enthusiastic riders age, maybe, just maybe, they'll consider a BMW scooter instead of hanging up their helmet for good?

Rider magazine is the only PTW related print I read these days and the average age of their subscribers is a similar (to MOA) late 50's group. The average ages are a mix of older riders like me (@ 75 in a couple weeks) from pre-boomer war babies and late boomers/young boomers and the early middle aged riders w/expendable income and/or recent empty nesters.
Thus often much older riders beyond the late 50's bunch skews the average some.
At the BMW national rally in TN I registered a rider well into his 80's. He was wearing one of those old, wide leather kidney belts so commonly seen in my youth as worn by HD & Indian riders.
BMW & other mfg.'s have tried to attract younger riders with the small street/dual purpose (non MX) bikes coming out in recent years and still coming. The membership problems of MOA are widely known to reflect the difficulty in selling two wheels to anyone. Many dealers in my area don't even showroom a MC, much less a scooter as ATV's are the only reason they are still there. One in my area has MC's and scoots but has closed some of their stores while others have very few.
The BMW 400 scoot is probably intended more for non North American riders.

I guess I'm an exception to the rule. I just like scooters and wanted more power so the C650GT fit the bill. I was never a fan of maxi scoots aesthetically unto the BMW C650GT 2016 redesign. I've had my 2017 for 2 seasons now and am very happy with it. Lots of power, an insane amount of storage and while there aren't a ton of aftermarket options they get the job done.

The electric windscreen is brilliant as are the heated seats and grips. For riding 2 up it is also great, my wife much prefers the BMW over the GTV for comfort and as it is a king/queen configuration the view apparently is great as the pillion sits well above the rider.

My advice is if you are above say 5' 10" is to get the Givi screen. It is a little bit taller and eliminates almost all buffeting at highway speed. The GPS and skirt are also great additions. It is a heavy and big bike so will take some getting used to depending what you are coming from. It does handle very well though and once you get used to it no problem to manage. For lane splitting/filtering yes it is a bit on the wide side but not that bad. For filtering you can flip the mirrors in to make yourself really not much wider than a Vespa. Too bad they aren't electric but easy enough to do with gauntlets on.

Harbinger:

Great looking machine and a very good write up. Gets me thinking about next year's ride.

Vintage1,it's worth pointing out that UK retail prices inc.20% VAT(tax) & inc,on the road(ride away fees),so it's difficult to equate them to US prices.

I looked at a new BMW 650GT a couple days ago. US$12,090+12% for out-the-door costs and taxes = $13,540 ~ £10,433.

Sorry for hijacking the thread

Was at the dealer this morning scheduling my 10K maintenance. Think they said $340 for the service which honestly isn't that bad. Getting an oil change new brake pads and a few little things looked at. It could be I'm just so used to everything in Toronto costing so much that I don't blink at spending about $400 on maintenance. Cheap considering how much I've spent upgrading my Vespa.

The new BMW scoot is not coming to Canada. On the C650GT is available from BMW Canada.

Harbinger. Thanks for the excellent and timely post. I'm hoping to ride a 650GT today if the smoke clears a bit from the Paradise fire 230 miles away. It was pretty bad yesterday and this morning but seems to be lightening up now.

A few questions for you...
- does the Givi screen attached to the motion mechanism of the original screen and does it move up and down? Do you get wind in your face when down? Is it quiet when adjust properly? I'm 5'10.
- I also have a GTV (2009 250). When you go to the garage, which do you choose to ride and why? I know you take the BMW if the missus is along. I may sell the GTV, we'll see. Trade in BTW at the dealer was ~$2K. I have almost 19K miles on it. Still runs great.
- thanks for the tips on the mirror rotating in

Thanks
Miguel

Thats about what I was quoted at the dealer the other day. for oil service in San Francisco. It looks like its easy to do the oil change yourself BTW if you are at all interested.

Best
Miguel

Heading out to a social event so will get back to you today or early tomorrow. Could do a PM bit it might be others are interested. Id rather give thoughtful answers than quick responses from my iPhone.

Thanks, I know we are highjacking the thread but I'm sure others will be interested in your answer so you should post it here rather than PM me.

Air quality is continuing to degrade here from the fire 280+ miles from me so I'm not going out riding in it today so will miss a test ride on the 650GT. I'll try it on Tuesday.

Best
Miguel.

I believe the BMW 650 starts at $10,900. Like any other new vehicle it seems it's difficult to find a basic model without options already installed. At least it seems to be that way in the U.S.

What bothered me about the BMW originally (besides its looks before the refresh in 2016) was the magazine review that reported that if you kept the BMW to 100,000 miles, and had the dealer do just the recommended maintenance (no repairs that may pop up) you would spend again the original MSRP in maintenance.

All the dealers list it at $12090 for the GT, a bit cheaper for the Sport.

I know some intrepid MVer has calculated the cost of service on a GTS over some long period of time but I don't know what that is. But the costs would rival the BMW costs.

I do my own service and tires are by far the most expensive maintenance Item I encounter. Just taking some guesses for what I'd spend over 100K miles...
- oil and filter + occasional drain plug replacement: $30 x 16 times over 100 kmiles = $480
- Belts and rollers every 8K miles at $150 each: $1800
- Tires: 16*$200 = $3200. I bet the larger tires on the BMW last 2x longer (tho they might cost twice as much!) than the tires I use which last about 6K miles and cost $200/pair.
- Transmission oil, brake fluid, coolant every 2 years: $50*25 = $1250 (I only ride ~2K miles a year)
---------------------
Total = $6730

That's without mechanic's fees of $150/hour.

That's a bit more expensive than the cost of a GTS in 2009. And there's some costs I've ignored like replacing variator every few services, bulbs, radiator hoses every 10 years maybe a water pump and a clutch rebuild, brake pads and disks and possibly other things.

So the Vespa cost/mile is probably more expensive than the BMW which I presume includes mechanics fees.

The BMW lists the maintenance every 6K miles as an oil change. That's it. Oil service is easy to do on your own. Theres a major service every 25000 miles which the dealer told me was $2k. There's other maintenance items that you also have to include such as tires, brake fluid and coolant changes that aren't included in the above analysis.

Anyway, its an interesting analysis.

Best
Miguel

I'll say this again- the flat rate for BMW dealer service is similar to any other late model vehicle. Many urban areas have highly skilled non-dealer garages who beat the prices a bit due to lower overhead.
Schedules vary somewhat as do parts prices among brands.
High end cars or PTW's need not always have high priced parts. Some parts your sort of stuck, maintenance items, not so much as places like Rock Auto and Carid have most of whats needed for a button push.
I ordered an oil filter to my door yesterday for my BMW X3 @ $6/ free shipping. I did the X3 rear brakes with name brand pads costing under $40 per set and a brake sensor wire @ ~$8, all shipped to my rural doorway.
I bought a spare tire assembly (same car) this week and UPS put it on my porch from a salvage yard in VA. New yet under half price of the dealer sourced version, even when bought online!
I realize not everyone has whatever skill set nor wants to get dirty or has time or place to perform the work but the point is that if you turn these things over to a dealer they pay the help and the overhead and obviously not there as a hobby, BMW or not.
Talking my own situation I have been in two BMW MC dealers in my life, neither for service. Joining a club can offer the opportunity to learn how to do some basic maintenance. As a rider it helps to ensure your ride is safe when you know how to pull an inspection of it's readiness and/or how to projects. It is a hobby for many of us in the end, so self-wrenching can be a part of the whole activity, or not. If you just don't want that aspect, I understand but also find it easy to say that "ya gotta pay the man/person" when your hands stay clean.
BMW does not tell their dealers what they must charge for parts. When I was building wrecks I could buy for less even with shipping from dealers outside my state and area-only large body parts was I restricted somewhat. They will ofetn "tear you a new one",

Thanks Kentuckid. I agree with your points.

Miguel

They are $7400 Canadian for the 400X....according to the BMW Canada site...
https://www.bmw-motorrad.ca/en/models/urban_mobility/c400x.html
and $8700 CN for the 400GT......
https://www.bmw-motorrad.ca/en/models/urban_mobility/c400gt.html

On the site. Now find a dealer that can get you one in Canada. The main Toronto dealer said they wont have in Canada any and well.. Maybe Vancouver?

I looked on Cycle Trader yesterday and they show in ads, all using stock pics, @ Bob's BMW, Tampa, FL and in Texas. Price point is $6750 or click a box to ask. There's no indication they are physically there or coming, etc., so might just be an advertising ploy at this point?
As for Canadian dealers having the BMW scoots, my 2nd hand understanding is that USA dealers had the 650 scoots on their floors only when they were forced to take their allotment, not cause they thought they could sell one.

Yet another scooter in North America may be a bit like the notion of another diesel car/suv in NA? As in "will it sell, bet it wont"?

I'm remembering the SMAX scooter I went and sat on before I bought my 1st Vespa- it had sat there from the day they got it at introduction until me sitting on it a couple years later and even then the price was a no budge hard one.
Seems the big burg's are the scoot that sells here? or the smaller Vespas and other urban mobility scoots?
My next "zoom adventure" is more likely a new 2019 Mazda CX 5, 2.5 Turbo, than another scooter.

Very good point. I've bought a few of my vehicles primarily on the strength and character of their online communities.

Yeah not really a community for the C650 but hell MV will have to do. TBH there are enough smart folks here that know bikes be they Vespa, BMW or other.

The Givi screen works just like the OEM and it fits on to the mounting hardware. The only difference is the screws for the Givi are a little longer.

No wind at all in the face, zero, zip nada and I'm 5' 11". I do get a little buffeting off the top of the helmet though. It is noticeably much quieter with the screen up. On the OEM screen I had one of those clip on extensions.I found with the GIVI I don't need it. You can ride on the highway with the visor up but I find I generally don't.

Now as to which bike I choose when I go to the garage. It's funny I can go for a few weeks just riding one and then ride the other one for a few weeks. They do both feel very different with the BMW being much larger and more "motorcycle" like. The guys at BMW said they don't really see the C650 as a "scooter" . The other scooters in the lineup they do though. The BMW has a lot of grunt and you will know what I mean as soon as you test ride it. Coming from a GTV I can guarantee you it will feel strange. The closest approximation I can make is to me it feel like you're behind the helm of a spaceship. The engine has a certain distinct sound to it from the cockpit. Almost a robotic like whine and then there is the massive screen and controls at your thumbs. I also have the GPS which adds to the experience. It is a great bike for the highway and can go 85 mph all day not breaking a sweat. The screen and adjustable leg positions also help a great deal. You can ride cruiser style with your legs stretched out though I generally find I use a more motorcycle like stance. Trust me when say once you get used to it it handles very well for its size. It actually surprises me at times at how nimble it can be for a couch on wheels. ABS/ASR is a given and both work very well. As far as storage goes... well have a look at the dealer and you'll know what I mean when I say it holds A LOT. Now add a 30 litre top case to that. I know I sound like a fanboy and I guess maybe I am. It really is in my opinion the best scooter out there provided you accept that it is a scooter. It also reviews very well post 2016 and the only real knock is the high price tag for a "scooter". BMW did a great job on the design as well in my opinion especially the cockpit. Some may feel they could have done more with the instrument cluster but I personally prefer a more analogue look over an LED screen. I'd recommend getting the GPS but that's up to you and it isn't cheap. If anyone here get a BMW Garmin GPS , pm me as I can give you tips. Last thing.. the heated seats and grips are awesome.

OK now the Vespa. After all that I said above if I HAD to only keep one it would probably be the Vespa. IF you get the BMW and can keep the Vespa I highly recommend it. Man the feeling of getting on the Vespa after a few days on the C650 is incredible and causes instant smile syndrome. The Vespa feels like a toy and I don't mean that in a bad way. In baseball there are weighted donut (or bagel) shaped weights you put over the bat you can use when warming up. Then when you pick up a regulation bat it feels much lighter. That's kind of how it feels with the Vespa. The Vespa feels incredibly nimble and light as a feather. With the performance modifications I've made to my Vespa it is also doesn't really feel like a regular Vespa to ride. Lou at Vespa Toronto let me borrow a stock model for a few days while mine was getting upgrades and it felt a little strange. Still what I'm saying here applies I'm sure. For the city the Vespa wins I that it is a little more nimble, easier to park and easier to filter with. It does lose out in the storage department but I have recently gotten saddle bags for the Vespa. I only put light things in the saddle bag to (hopefully!) avoid the paint being scratched. So far so good. I love the Vespa for being a Vespa. To me Vespa is an iconic brand and nothing else is a Vespa. The ability to modify the scoot is also important to me and going about 100 mph on 12 inch wheels is something everyone should try at least once. I was also a mod then scooter boy and that has never really left me though outside of wearing desert boots and having a lot of Fred Perry clouting I really don't look the part.

At the end of the day the BMW C650GT is a great bike but it's that, a "bike". It does not feel or act like a Vespa at all. I am very happy with it though and I hope BMW continues to develop its higher CC scooter offering. I'll take floorboards over foot pegs any day.

Harbinger. Thanks for the excellent and detailed reply. You're review parallels every other review I've read on the BMW C 650 GT. I plan to ride it either Tu or next weekend. The dealer want to limit me to 2-3 miles riding since its a new bike.I understand that but there's another dealer that will let me take it for 45 minutes.

I expect to like it a lot. I'm really interested in it for the creature comforts. I am not sure I'll keep both. While I sorta have the room, I sort don't. Also, I haven't discussed this with Ms Miguel yet. She has no idea I'm considering it. I don't expect pushback.

I'll keep you in the loop WRT to what I do.

Cheers!
Miguel

An old divorced boss told me, it is always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.
I just start talking about my next toy and she knows I am thinking about buying. She's speak up if there is protest, otherwise I just bring them home.

Got a little push back on my 11th grill/smoker buy, but it was a deal Need to sell one or two.

Thanks and please do let me know how it goes. If you get the BMW and don't keep the Vespa I hope you stick around here! Any questions feel free to ask.