Modern Vespa

I saw a TV news article about the ramming of fleeing scooter thief's. If this is correct, then

Hoping an internet sleuth can find and post any articles about this.

(edit) should have looked around B4 posting.

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/world/2018/11/23/uk-police-vehicles-deliberately-ram-moped-thieves/38592307/

Yep, it's true:-

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/23/met-police-say-tough-tactics-have-reduced-violent-moped

It seems to be working in reducing this type of crime. I just worry what the repercussions will be if there is a fatality using this method. Will the police officer driving the pursuit car be prosecuted for manslaughter?

Honestly I'm ecstatic the police are running them over. It's about time.

The bastards have been molly-coddled too long.

So, your scooter gets boosted and the police run it over to catch the bad guy. The guy learned a lesson and your bike has been trashed.

Not sure if the outcome is much better than if the bike was stripped and dumped or never to be found.

The benefits are long term. I'd much rather have one trashed scooter that should be covered by insurance, than a whole string of them stolen.

Ram em!

Perhaps, but if there is no insurance, the loss is all the owner's.

You'll need statistics to make this more than an opinion. I think it sucks that anyone has to employ so many anti theft devices just to ride a scooter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-46321715/thieves-knocked-off-mopeds-by-police-in-london

I was sat broken down at a junction to the m62 n 3 lads on a scooter, no helmets, came straight up the slip road. Went all the way round n back onto the motorway in the other direction. If I'd have been in a car I'd clip the bistards. 😠😠

It would be extremely unlikely that a UK scooter wouldn't be insured for theft.

The choice is either having your scooter stolen and never seeing it again or having the little toe rag knocked off the scooter and having a scratched up scooter returned to you. Seems like an easy choice to me. Seems like a fantastic step forward for everyone (except the thieves).

So deadly force is authorized for scooter thieves, then?

And yes, using a car as a weapon to bat riders off motorbikes is, at a minimum, assault with a deadly weapon, at least here in the States. A belligerent auto driver here was recently sentenced to 15 years in prison for attempting to run over a motorcyclist.

Admittedly, I'm not in the UK and I acknowledge laws and customs are different, but seems like an overreaction to me. Must be other tactics they could use.

I'm not so sure deathly force is being suggested nor encouraged but if it is safe to do so either knock them slightly or have them run over a stinger. I very much doubt @running over@ or @battering the fuck out of them@ comes remotely close to the remit. I'd also very much doubt your average PC will be testing the waters to see how far he or she came push it before they receive Criminal charges themselves.

I have also noted they are encouraging the use of indelible ink spray to use on the little scrotes. There was a report on the radio yesterday that the Met suggested they've cut down on scooter crime by 40% or so over the last year.


How true that is I have no idea.

I think you misunderstand - or are misstating the strategy. Forcing someone over who refuses to stop is a common strategy used by LEOs in the US. Heck, the use of tack strips is common enough if a vehicle refuses to stop. How is that different than what is being described here?

Maybe I don't understand. The video depicts a rider getting knocked off his bike and onto the hood of the vehicle which initiated the action. It's not a mere traffic stop and the potential for serious injury is pretty self-evident. Such a tactic might be justified if the rider posed a deadly threat to the officer or the public but for a theft or some such without any articulable threat, it seems excessive to me.

Vehicle chases here in the States are generally closely monitored by watch commanders or senior police staff because of the potential liability exposure and danger to the public and the officers. Such vehicle pursuits are regularly cancelled by command staff for those reasons. Routine traffic stops are not the same and are handled differently.

I freely admit that I don't necessarily understand the use of force dynamics or law in the UK, although, as I stated earlier, I acknowledge that there are probably significant differences.

Actually the video depicts examples of a scooter being intentionally bumped by a police car and examples of a thief dropping a scooter trying to escape from an LEO. Surely you understand these are cases where the vehicle has been stolen and the thief tries to evade an officer. If you are under the impression that LEOs in the US routinely allow stolen vehicles to evade them rather than using various tactics to block or stop them - I believe you are mistaken.

Criminals don't care how their actions affect others. If they are killed even when police try to stop them without deadly force, the criminal is making that choice even if their actions cause collateral damage.
In the immortal words of Super Chicken.

No, the scooters are mostly just bikes continually used by thieves to commit robberies. I'm so pleased the police are doing this!

"Surely you understand these are cases where the vehicle has been stolen and the thief tries to evade an officer. If you are under the impression that LEOs in the US routinely allow stolen vehicles to evade them rather than using various tactics to block or stop them - I believe you are mistaken."

Of course I understand this. We're talking about vehicle pursuits, not stop sticks. I also know that when the vehicle pursuit becomes excessively dangerous, particularly for non-capital offenses such as stolen vehicles, watch commanders make a risk-benefit evaluation and decide whether to continue the pursuit or not...especially if there are othe resources like aviation assets available.

My guess is that this is a matter which is not settled law as yet. We'll see where it goes in the UK. I wish the officers good fortune and hope they don't get trapped in litigation or in disciplinary actions by gutlesss adminstrators.

The officers who do this are specially trained to do this and cause as little or no injury as possible. The escaping scooterists pose a considerable threat to the public as has been shown over and over again because they often run into pedestrians or cause cars to crash during their escape. All police pursuits over here are carefully monitored and risks constantly assessed. Some of the scooterists have just committed armed robbery and deserve apeveryfhing they get. It's definitely working as robberies are going down dramatically.

You've never had a scoot stolen smashed apart to get going then smashed some more cos it won't .... it's fun .... id rather have it rammed n returned at least I'd have en engine to start again

Understand. See what I wrote above. You've described an articulable threat to the public or the officer there. If the crime involves the taking by force, particularly by use of weapons, I have no issue with it . In such cases, the use of commensurate force will always come down to a judgment call by the officer in accordance with law and Dept policy. Same here in the States.

@gumshoe: I'm guessing you don't live in London, haven't had kids repeatedly trying to steal your scooter or had gangs of armed youths surround you at the lights trying to take your scoot off you. I have. These measures are entirely necessary. Every time they steal a scooter they use it for a string of other crimes (ram raids, bag snatching, mugging, phone snatching etc). I wrote the security wiki on this site but have had to give up on riding scooters because of this scum. The kids steal the scooters because they know they wouldn't be stopped by the law while riding them. Now they can. If they're being chased by the police then they can simply stop at any point. If they don't stop then they get rammed.

Gumshoe you are so frustrating.

The scooters and riders shown in those videos are.....

1, Those who do acid attacks to aid robbery.
2, Attack in groups on other scooters to steal scooters or rob the public.
3, Equally evil acts

These aren't speeding offences or bad riding practice.

They aren't happening willy nilly all over the country, search you'll find very few of these clips.
They are a very rare and last resort recently being advertised greatly to help reduce and hopefully mostly remove this culture completely.

You seem to be deliberately picking fault in any comments made as to your intentions BUT see it for what it is, it's in the UK, it's a fast growing vile culture that they showing a few limited video clips of how they can deal with you if you choose to do the same.

Congrats on the new operative procedures and congrats to the Police and the politicos who have made this possible.
Maybe, just maybe, the scumbags will get the message.

Sorry, guys, was not aware that this thread is restricted to approbation only. Was only attempting to provide some counterpoint to encourage some thoughtful discussion. Evidently, I was wrong. Sorry to rile you up, Bill.

Let me see if I can clarify.

LEOs are authorized to use force in basically three circumstances: to protect themselves, to protect the public and to overcome resistance to arrest. The level of force must be commensurate with the level of resistance displayed by the suspect and it must be objectively reasonable.

LEOs are not authorized to use force to execute judgment based on their own personal opinions or to exact retribution on the suspect. They are not the judge and jury. The level of force authorized actually has little or nothing to do with the crimes the suspect has committed. This is why, for example, if a murder suspect submits peacefully to arrest, LEOs will use minimal force to effect the arrest, whereas if a person is pulled over for mere speeding but decides to use force against the officer, the officer may use sufficient force to overcome that resistance...as long as the officer's use of force is objectively reasonable.

Many here seem to believe that this particular use of force by UK LEOs is justified based on the fact that these scooter thugs have committed heinous crimes. Emotionally, I get that and, I would guess, most LEOs would as well. They, however, cannot function that way. To do so would result cases getting tossed out of court and would potentially expose the LEOs to discipline, lawsuits and criminal charges. The LEOs must use appropriate force to overcome resistance, remembering that their job is to effect an arrest and protect themselves and the public. They cannot allow their emotions to dictate their conduct in use of force situations.

I can't say whether this practice is justifiable or not, although looking from the outside, it appears to me that it could be construed as excessive force in some cases. Ultimately, it will be up to the London Metro Police and the courts to decide whether it is legitimate or not and that is what I said earlier. My primary concern is with the LEOs who are executing this policy, because my experience has been as follows:

1. Police administration identifies a problematic criminal trend.
2. Police administration develops a policy and procedure to answer the trend.
3. Police administration trains line staff in the new policy and procedure.
4. LEO executes procedure in accordance with training and policy.
5. A lawsuit or a criminal charge is filed against the officer.
6. Police administration, fearful of litigation, says that the policy was not intended to be used as the officer did and that the officer was operating outside policy.
7. Police administration withdraws support and allows the officer to swing in the breeze.

I sincerely hope I am wrong about this sequence of events and that the Met will stand by its officers when they execute this tactic and someone gets seriously injured or killed.

We could go on for a long time about the use of force and how it is practiced by LE, but I think the point is that this is not a TV show and LEOs have a very complex job, particularly when it involves the use of force.

I think I've said what I needed to say. I apologize if it annoys anyone. That level of frustration you're feeling is what officers feel every day as they go about their work protecting the public and feeling their hands being tied by the courts and their own administration.

Gumshoe, do you honestly think the met police and it's officers don't know any of what you have just written. We have the most tightly controlled police force in the world and from what I know, the most professional. Our guys are experts in non lethal force with only a tiny fraction of our police carrying guns. In spite of the police using this method to take down some of the most dangerous individuals, no one has suffered more than a minor injury.

The orders to undertake this new 'stop' method have come from the very top of the police force. It's not a local decision to do this. Officers don't get left on their own if legally challenged. And if that were to ever happen there would be huge public outcry and 10's of thousands of people on the streets. I have serving family members of the force in my family...trust me, they don't do stuff like this without good reason and they never undertake it lightly. It's done to protect the public.

Well said.

Certainly, I believe the officers know this. I have respect for the Met and I don't think they'd leave an officer hanging. Most departments here wouldn't either, but some, particularly in large metro areas whose senior people are more politically astute administrators than officers, have done as I've described.

My explanation was for those on this thread who may have less than complete understanding of the limitations on the use of force by police officers.

Ramming is similar to the PIT maneuver Police use to spin a car out

I'll sum this up.

It's about fucking time.

No mercy.

Bill x

+ 1, ya got that right. Justice can take many forms and sometime ya gotta do what may not be popular in order to get things under control. Long live law and order, and justice....... what ever form it may take.

Gumshoe, rest assured, the LEO's are well advice on the legality of this tactic and have full support of their rganization and local politians, and I /uspect the community as well. I like it when the LEO's take the 'safe zone' away the from the bad guys.

I'm afraid in this country we'd have every liberal rights organization, including the ACLU, decrying this tactics, shame really. We seem to give the criminals the upper hand. Here in Florida the law is more equally weighted then in some states. Here we're able to defend yourself and our property with no need to flee. I always have ae Austrians helper at my side should the need arise.

Paul

If there is no insurance, the owner is already at a loss because so little from crime ever gets returned to the owner. In the end, if word gets out you are going to get run over if they know you are scooter theft, it may deter the overall crime. Right now, the steal with impunity because officers have been restricted. Seems like the gloves are off now.

Love it. Keep it up.

Just checked the law books...knocking an offender off his bike IS legally allowed if the 'intent' is to protect the public and the offender from harm. Have spoken to two MET officers who are gen"d up on this, my cousins. It's all about intent. Since the police have stated their intent and have a clear policy that's been properly risk assessed and practiced, it would be difficult to challenge this practice in court. This would be the same situation as the police in the US ramming or spinning a car to apprehend the occupant/s. Our police do that too when it's necessary. It would not be done without good reason. If you or I did this to someone even if we saw them escaping from a crime, we could easily fall foul of the law as our intent might be less clear.

Totally agree with this Robin. I'm not sure what point Gumshoe is trying to make. Anyone that has experienced the issues we are having over here will absolutely support this initiative. Incidentally, the frequency of scooter and motorbike thefts has fallen recently and should continue to fall if there are real deterrents like this one.

Frustrating topic all in all.

If you, your vehicle, or say home is attached, it starts to feel very personal. I've been there myself. And I have relatives living in London, so pretty much understand how bad the situation is.

The other side - those who work with the kids "gone bad", also know that a high % of them are just so clueless about everything, "supported" by rough childhood, terribly wrong role models and amazingly narrow view to the whole world. Impossible to undo all that in a second, so asking politely has weak results. Generalizing, for many of these kids their set of values according to which they live have become so different, that asking politely is like saying to a guy living under a cardboard box in India that it is not correct to take money from a dead fellow who lies on a street. Not correct for us, perfectly normal for him. All the more important also to try get to the roots of the problem well before the kids can ride anything.

You haven't been following the London Scooter Theft threads have you? Screw the toe rags, if they get hurt or killed less of a drain of good money to help others. Throwing acid in people faces, knocking people off moving scooters, they deserve what they get.

It would appear to me, "over here" that you guys over there have a legit beef with crime using scooters. Unless I'm badly mistaken , gumshoe is a real live LEO or former LEO and has presented as thorough a comment as could be made? no matter where he lives, USA or UK. Gumshoe is a USA term used to describe a detective for you British & other across the waters folks.
In the first part of this thread I was a bit concerned of cop's out of control but like many web subjects felt the rest of the story would come forth and it mostly did- and on both sides of the discussion IMO.
Perhaps the worlds sexiest man, Idris Elba can come into the scooter crime scene and tear them a new arse?

I have worked in prisons and been much involved in juvenile treatment and was quite bothered by this "ram a scooter thief" at the onset but get it a bit now. Maybe a Spiderman net deployment would be safer for all concerned-seriously!
It seems to me that a thief on a scooter is much less of a threat to public safety than one in a 3-4,000 lb vehicle?, but the acid tactic got my attention.My lasting thought is that in my country we have far greater crime issues than what I've seen in this thread. Opoid and other drug related crimes is to my mind far & above worse?

Your concern for police treatment of suspected felons is admirable, but truly the UK is a shining beacon of tolerance and restraint compared to the US.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

We seem to getting hung up on maybe the "teenager" element but these guys doing these awful crimes are all ages, all races and nationality....total mixture.

Also they aren't being executed on the spot by Judge Dredd.

They are being chased by highly trained non gun carrying officers with a very sensible British outlook on life.

These are on the whole inner city low speed impacts.

If they do get injured, they'll be rushed by paramedics to one of our fantastic hospitals where they will receive some of the best health care in the world......all for free.