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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
Patrick - was preparing to put up a punch list of parts needed.
Fuel line is on there!
(scoot has fuel line from Indo build still!)

Safis - thanks brother!
Just what I was looking for.
Knew you'd utilized somewhere - beautiful.
Will use for inspiration.

Tierney - The frame will completely replace what I'm using now.
It really was just slapped together to see if it would work/ test some geometry.
This one will double down on testing of ideas - with better build quality.

* I plan to re-use the sidecar body for this - with a modified means of suspension.
The Wideframe will get the full aluminum body treatment.
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
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UTC quote
SaFiS wrote:
I use AN3 line and banjos. Depending the project I also have a shop close by that does pressed fittings...

I would love to have my hose pressed...

tired of worrying about loctite and the banjo tightening properly.
charlieman22 wrote:
I plan to re-use the sidecar body for this - with a modified means of suspension.
The Wideframe will get the full aluminum body treatment.
Exciting times!

I would totally come hit aluminium panels for you...
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Quote:
I would totally come hit aluminium panels for you...
Shop's open.
You'd be welcome.

For time being - I'm going to work on the frame side of things...
Below is my frame shopping list.
Scoot already has black shock/ black wheels/ orange caliper.
Kinda matching with sidecar frame build.

As for trailing arm - have mixed emotions about going this route (see below).
Think I might get nice performance from this - but don't love the look as much as single sided.
Taking a flyer and giving it a go.

Note: I think a cushy, adjustable suspension on the sidecar will allow me some better grinding in the corners.
Gonna design a suspension that is fairly easily adjusted to test that out.
Here is the starting point(s):
Swing/ trailing arm.  Looks to be a good value - and ready to bolt on.
Swing/ trailing arm. Looks to be a good value - and ready to bolt on.
Brake caliper "seating axle" as SIP likes to call it.  This holds the caliper.
Brake caliper "seating axle" as SIP likes to call it. This holds the caliper.
Matches my front brake
Matches my front brake
Disc
Disc
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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UTC quote
OP
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
Good one.

My plan is to position the shock horizontally- similar to the mini spring of that video.

The swing arm I chose has an upper shock mount - I should be able to put in line with a mostly horizontal shock.
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UTC quote
Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon

Shhhh.Shhh Ya'll quiet down back there. New season of the Ned show is on.
⚠️ Last edited by Birdsnest on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC quote
with trailing link, torsion bar is a good fit for the spring as it's compact, does not weigh much, and easy to adjust the ride height. California Sidecar use that but with no shock.

I like the way the mini fixes one end of the trailing link pivot to the subframe and allows bracket on the outboard pivot to be swapped out or shimmed to change camber and toe-in.
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
I've seen the Cali sidecar torsion spring.
Not sure where I'd get a torsion spring to do that job nicely - and without squeak.

I'm not familiar with how mini shims.
But toe in and toe out are a critical part of my plan.

My idea for suspension is a coil over used in similar fashion to what I see on mountain bikes.
https://youtube.com/shorts/BRNLY-mtTU4?si=w6pGHPiOzOtJbIP9

Not sure why most of those look like stubby shocks with no spring?
Also - the setup creates some mechanical advantage I think - tho I'm not sure how or why.

As for toe in toe out, I'm considering a few options. It's such a PIA to adjust mine now - especially fine tune.
But fine tune has a huge effect on how it rides when at speed or on hwy.
would be so cool to be able to dial it in without crawling under it on the side of the road…
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
A disparate set of parts (its a word) has started to arrive at my door.
All sorts of shiny & anodized aluminum.

The swing arm is a little bigger than it looked in the picture.
Makes me chuckle - how exactly did I imagine I was sizing it?
May be able to make it work still tho.
Have to say - its all really nicely welded (TIG).
Some Chinese kid is stacking renminbi.

Below a few status shots
Brake goodies and some welding supplies
Brake goodies and some welding supplies
All sorts
All sorts
Something like this - but I'd like to figure out how to swap the brake to the back side if possible.
Something like this - but I'd like to figure out how to swap the brake to the back side if possible.
Truck fulla aluminum tube in prep for what ever this thing is gonna b.
Truck fulla aluminum tube in prep for what ever this thing is gonna b.
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
Is that a streamline seat I spot?
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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UTC quote
108 wrote:
Is that a streamline seat I spot?
You bought one CM? I thought you could make one.

Lotsa shiny there!
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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UTC quote
Lookin' good!

Can you not just flip the wheel over to put the brake on the inside? Or are there alignment issues with the mudguard, etc.?
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Some Chinese kid is stacking renminbi.
Spitake.
😂😂😂
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
- It is indeed a streamline seat.
- I am considering some modifications*
- I can "flip it over" and put the brake on the inside. I'l have to weld on a tab - no big deal. But the swing arm is really too wide for this wheel - and it stands out if I let the offset be to the inside rather than the outside.

I am considering taking my chop saw and welder to the swing arm.
Haven't yet determined final plan.

Since the swing arm will have more travel - and is too wide to fit into the mudguard when it flexes - I will make it move with the mud guard instead.

Here is where it will sit - in a fixed position:
I have some work to do to figure out how it will al fit together...
I have some work to do to figure out how it will al fit together...
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
Page 100 marches on - side car build is in progress.
Over engineering in full... eh hem... lean.
Ginch would be proud - or at least - unsurprised.

I want a range of adjustably at the sidecar wheel.
- Toe in/out
- Camber
- Fore/aft relative to scooter

Swing arm I bought came with bearings and hardware for the pivot point - which I promptly threw out.
Pivot axel was only 10MM, and there was 2mm of play that would have translated to 5MM+ of steering effect at the tire patch.
No bueno.

So I dug into my pile of scrap materials, and fired up the newly refurbed lathe - and started hacking up some stainless steel bushings.
Images below of today's progress.
$10 of stainless steel scrap
$10 of stainless steel scrap
Turned down bushings with tight tolerance to pivot axle
Turned down bushings with tight tolerance to pivot axle
Lathes are awesome
Lathes are awesome
Milled some holes for a grease path (and grooved the internals).
Milled some holes for a grease path (and grooved the internals).
Then pressed them in after heating the swing arm
Then pressed them in after heating the swing arm
Made some additional bushings for the center axle support (aluminum tube, stainless steel bushings)
Made some additional bushings for the center axle support (aluminum tube, stainless steel bushings)
Drilled and tapped for grease fitting
Drilled and tapped for grease fitting
Bushings pressed into aluminum tube.  You can see the grease groove on the ID of the steel busings.
Bushings pressed into aluminum tube. You can see the grease groove on the ID of the steel busings.
Close up of the assembly.  I have some thrust washers that keep everything moving smoothly - between axle support tube and swing arm
Close up of the assembly. I have some thrust washers that keep everything moving smoothly - between axle support tube and swing arm
Here is the assembly.  The axle support tube moves so smoothly - and there is no perceptible play in any direction.  Super pleased.  Air shock will allow adjustment for different load.  Start throwing your tomatoes if you must.
Here is the assembly. The axle support tube moves so smoothly - and there is no perceptible play in any direction. Super pleased. Air shock will allow adjustment for different load. Start throwing your tomatoes if you must.
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
RAD. I love all the uncharted territory that you're visiting...and conquering.
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
So I dug into my pile of scrap materials, and fired up the newly refurbed lathe - and started hacking up some stainless steel bushings.
Images below of today's progress.
I am so proud! [sniff]
Looks absolutely amazing.
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Petty Tyrant
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UTC quote
Ginch wrote:
I am so proud! [sniff]
Looks absolutely amazing.
Sorry, sorry! I had to delete the stock photo from your post. Those guys are ruthless.

My apologies.
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Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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UTC quote
oh, hello! did somebody say air shocks? because I am here for that!
sky jackers!
sky jackers!
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
Sorry, sorry! I had to delete the stock photo from your post. Those guys are ruthless.

My apologies.
Ah right! Will look out for that in future. Cheers Jess.
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UTC quote
Jeebus Christo... here you are manufacturing functional art, whilst I was proud I got the front brake shoes on without breaking them.

Amazing stuff.
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UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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UTC quote
CM2 starts with something simple like, "These Ali Express bushings have too much play."

This happens, and most of us would do something like measure for the size we want, search Amazon/Grainger/Ali Express for the part, and order it.

CM2, on the other hand, learns how to machine a bushing, then gets a lathe, rebuilds it, decides he wants a better lathe, gets and rebuilds that, designs the part, and then machines it.

He's like a walking, talking version of "If you give a mouse a cookie" for mechanical problems.

And gets amazing results, of course.
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
Ginch musta posted Stairway to Heaven again.

Greasy - I grew up in Georgia... so - I've seen some air shocks.
and some Edelbrock manifolds.
And some traction bars...
🙂
Quote:
most of us would do something like measure for the size we want, search Amazon/Grainger/Ali Express for the part, and order it.
Oh, I did that too.
Which is when I realized - even if they were tight - they just aren't made for a twisting load - which is what I have.
It's amazing what a few MM of angle adjust at the pivot translates to at the rear wheel.
Ball bearings are just not the right solution for keeping the swing arm in plane.

For my needs, 25mm long bushings, precision machined to the pivot axle - is a world better for that twisting motion. There is just none perceptible now.

Made a bit more progress.
My machining skills are improving - but I am sloooooo.
I sneak up on the spec like I'm trying to fool it.

However - the fit of the parts kinda remarkable - and it feels pretty damn good to get those results. Please lord don't make me have to re-do any of this.
I want a super thick wall so I had to start with this
I want a super thick wall so I had to start with this
At 80% - I continued until it was about 9-10mm wall.
At 80% - I continued until it was about 9-10mm wall.
Then I set up on the mill with my new $30 annular cutter.  These things are AWESOME
Then I set up on the mill with my new $30 annular cutter. These things are AWESOME
You run them at low RPM - and they are smooth as glass
You run them at low RPM - and they are smooth as glass
Unfortunately - I didn't have a means to extend the shank - so I had to flip the part and machine from the other side!  Not highly recommended...
Unfortunately - I didn't have a means to extend the shank - so I had to flip the part and machine from the other side! Not highly recommended...
Managed to get pretty damn close - at least close enough to set up for weld
Managed to get pretty damn close - at least close enough to set up for weld
Here are the three parts.  The one on the right fits inside the one on the left.
The one of the left will be made into a clamp.  The axle tube is in the middle
Here are the three parts. The one on the right fits inside the one on the left. The one of the left will be made into a clamp. The axle tube is in the middle
Here they are fit up.
Here they are fit up.
Gratuitous second angle
Gratuitous second angle
I started to weld it up - but ran out of time.  Some weirdness in the weld - looks like some contamination perhaps - but I tell myself not to worry... there will be worse.  🙂
I started to weld it up - but ran out of time. Some weirdness in the weld - looks like some contamination perhaps - but I tell myself not to worry... there will be worse. 🙂
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Hooked
px 125 disc
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Location: Essex, GB
 
Hooked
px 125 disc
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UTC quote
Does your day have 30 hours in it? How do you do this marvellous work, ride your scoot, earn a living, oh and have a family life as well?
Seriously your stuff is amazing, if you were this side of the pond, I'd sit in your garage and watch this stuff all day long.( and maybe persuade you to make me a replica?)
OP
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
I live two lives during the day.
It's totally common for me to flip my welding helmet uk to take a call.
I keep a wrinkle free shirt on my chair with snaps, for zoom/teams calls.
🙂

Thanks for props.
So enjoy fabricating like this.
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
Amazing work. If I lived near you, I would set up and video for Youtube. Side note, take a look at this set up - 1919 Harley Davidson sidecar racer:
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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142 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
I live two lives during the day.
It's totally common for me to flip my welding helmet uk to take a call.
I keep a wrinkle free shirt on my chair with snaps, for zoom/teams calls.
Having seen it in person, I can't decide if he has his office in his workshop or his workshop in his office. (I lean toward the former)

Either way, great stuff comes out of it.
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UTC quote
Gobsmacked as usual. I mean... wow. Wha? emoticon
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Addicted
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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@bajarob avatar
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UTC quote
Awesome fab and machine skills. I know it's cheaper and quicker to buy a swing arm but no doubt you could have made a superior one yourself! I'm enjoying following along on your thread.
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UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
My machining skills are perhaps best described as, brave…

About that swing arm: it's really not the right scale for my project. It's a little too long, a little too wide.
I can make it work, but I'm considering other solutions.
I like the way it looks, but It's a bit more steam punk than I was really going for.

The length means my pivot point is well forward on the Sidecar. Probably more travel than I really want to also.
So there may be some additional alterations are fabrications.

I've intentionally sized the wheel as narrow, yet tall. The tires are 90/90 -12. They are Heidenau to match the scooter tread.
Narrow, because I want the scooter to command the Sidecar and not vice versa.

More on the swing arm to come.
Here's a shot of the look as I'm starting to pre fit everything.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
Had a bit more time in the shop t'day to work on the clamp mechanism that's gonna allow me to adjust toe in and toe out.
Had a few mishaps along the way - part slipped when machining - and tungsten blew out when welding.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

So its already a little battle scarred - but I'm okay with it.
Here are a few shots.
Set up for machining some pockets for the bolts.
Set up for machining some pockets for the bolts.
When bolt holes were cut - I threw it back on the lath for a clean up on the OD
When bolt holes were cut - I threw it back on the lath for a clean up on the OD
Then it was back to the mill for some hairy slitting.
Then it was back to the mill for some hairy slitting.
In progress
In progress
Beauty shot of it assembled - you can see the inner tube that it clamps to
Beauty shot of it assembled - you can see the inner tube that it clamps to
Here it is mocked up as an assembly.  Time to move to the next component.
Here it is mocked up as an assembly. Time to move to the next component.
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Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
Beautiful! Clap emoticon Clap emoticon Clap emoticon
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UTC quote
Man… I don't even have compliments for this level of design, skill, and execution. Seriously Ned… I'm over here with a crayons and construction paper resto and you're going all Da Vinci on this fabrication work for your side car.

*raises glass
@bajarob avatar
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Addicted
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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UTC quote
Birdsnest wrote:
Man… I don't even have compliments for this level of design, skill, and execution. Seriously Ned… I'm over here with a crayons and construction paper resto and you're going all Da Vinci on this fabrication work for your side car.

*raises glass
Besides the great machining and welding my fav is how he thinks of the solutions to get his ideas and or goals to work. 👍
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
Wow - thanks you guys.
Appreciate the good words.

I'm proud of this one - for all reason's noted.
Really forcing me to up my game with a range of skills.

Moved on to the next component - this one will be the base that the swing arm mount sits in.
Designed with a hole in it so that I can weld both top and bottom of the tube as it goes through this part.

Not really a component I would want to fall apart while riding...
I created this part from scratch in Fusion 360.
I am far from expert... 
but it only took a few minutes.
I created this part from scratch in Fusion 360. I am far from expert... but it only took a few minutes.
I vacuumed away what seamed like pounds of aluminum chips
I vacuumed away what seamed like pounds of aluminum chips
Quick clean up.   Came out nice!
Quick clean up. Came out nice!
Here it is in place.  I'll wait to weld until I figure out exactly how much to choke up on the tube to get my desired height.
Here it is in place. I'll wait to weld until I figure out exactly how much to choke up on the tube to get my desired height.
UTC

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1037
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1037
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
NSM-Dweller Pokémon Evolution:

Newbie->Tinkerer->Technician->Mechanic->Engineer->Gick?
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
UTC quote
Gick just puked a little in his mouth at the thought of sidecar suspension fabricating.
🙂
UTC

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1037
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1037
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Gick just puked a little in his mouth at the thought of sidecar suspension fabricating.
🙂
Dude, he'd summon the spirit of Corradino D'Ascanio and negotiate the specs to ensure correctness. It would be correct AF.
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2367
 
Ossessionato
@108 avatar
V range 50s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2367
UTC quote
Looks soooo clean.
UTC

Hooked
px 125 disc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 314
Location: Essex, GB
 
Hooked
px 125 disc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 314
Location: Essex, GB
UTC quote
This is engineering and fabrication porn, pure and simple. love it.
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