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Nedminder
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Quote:
It's a bit more steam punk than I was really going for.
I may have been too generous.
Unsure about scale.
Appreciating the classic looks of my original design (framework mostly hidden).

But with ROM just weeks away - and time limited - just have to plow forward.
Frankenstein is coming to life.
Abby Normal is the donor.
Pray for good knockers.

Current iteration uses 1.75" aluminum tube, 1/8" wall thickness.
Stiff and strong - as long as my but welds hold up...
The welding is, to use a word, brave - to put a positive spin on it.

With each section, I check for full penetration, but lord there are some ugly joints on this beast.
Every once in a while I get my welding mojo working - and it makes me think I know what I'm doing - because, I have a short memory.

Those will be the pictures I post.
🙂
Here are a few highlights.
This thing could be a roller in a few days.
sketched up a design based on my first prototype.  Note my step ladder...  Want this one to sit a little lower to allow more scoot lean without interference with sidecar body
sketched up a design based on my first prototype. Note my step ladder... Want this one to sit a little lower to allow more scoot lean without interference with sidecar body
Turned some solid rod into threaded bungs for my rod ends (heim joints)
Turned some solid rod into threaded bungs for my rod ends (heim joints)
Beauty shot of the bung after turning.  Have to mark your wins along with the misses...
Beauty shot of the bung after turning. Have to mark your wins along with the misses...
Whack of parts before assembly
Whack of parts before assembly
Here is the bung welded in to the new chassis.  Also, weld of the day.  Trust me - they all did NOT look like this...
Here is the bung welded in to the new chassis. Also, weld of the day. Trust me - they all did NOT look like this...
Front arm - with all its twists and turns to allow it to snake out past the mud guard and leg shelled when scoot leans.  Geometry is good.  Fabrication is... well - a little Abby Normal...
Front arm - with all its twists and turns to allow it to snake out past the mud guard and leg shelled when scoot leans. Geometry is good. Fabrication is... well - a little Abby Normal...
Hard to tell - but this is the scoot leaned over at max lean - with the arm snaking out past all the bits and pieces.  Don't love the scale of the 1.75" OD - but it's light and strong.
Hard to tell - but this is the scoot leaned over at max lean - with the arm snaking out past all the bits and pieces. Don't love the scale of the 1.75" OD - but it's light and strong.
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
It's definitely coming along! I'm halfway expecting to see plethoras of plum bobs hanging from the ceiling with such multitude to fashion a bead curtain across the entire shop's bay door, and enough chalk lines on the floor to rival a large scale crime scene at the annual hopscotch state championship meet.
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Nedminder
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whodatschrome wrote:
It's definitely coming along! I'm halfway expecting to see plethoras of plum bobs hanging from the ceiling with such multitude to fashion a bead curtain across the entire shop's bay door, and enough chalk lines on the floor to rival a large scale crime scene at the annual hopscotch state championship meet.
Wait - have you got a camera in my place?
(had two layers, a sting line, and a 9' straight edge all in action at once today.
🙂
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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@ginch avatar
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UTC quote
Looking great Ned.

At least the bits you've shown us look great.

Tell us why you are not going for a torsion bar system again? I would have thought it's pretty much the ultimate - can act as a part of the frame, is almost invisible, and it's located down low.
I do like the rubber type... these people even made their own! https://www.chiefdelphi.com/t/very-small-torsion-axles/152705

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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Nedminder
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Quote:
At least the bits you've shown us look great.
Thanks!
The thing I'm not so wild about is the tube size relative to the scoot.

It's not uncommon for the details to look cool on their own - but when drawn together - look some what out of scale as a unit.
Some concern that's where I'm headed.
Some paint or polish might help knick that effect down a little - we'll see.
Quote:
Tell us why you are not going for a torsion bar system again?
There are a few reasons I opted for this design using a swing arm with air shock.
Most have to do with adjustability.
More on that in a moment.
First - part of the challenge are a set of competing elements for this build.
- lighter
- more easily adjustable (toe in/out)
- lower side car to allow more aggressive lean
- better clearance of lowest point to road. Current one has som low spots I want to engineer out.
- narrower footprint from sidecar tire to scoot center line- to allow some sneaky lane split. 🙂.
- but don't want sidecar body any closer to scoot - so wheel footprint gets smaller without moving sidecar in.

Many of those work against ea other…
But there's room in the design for better geometry.
I'll be able to show some pics when done.

Torsion vs air shock.
90% of the time, no one is in the sidecar.
Occasionally it gets loaded up tho.
An air shock allows me to play with the suspension - which I want soft for day to day riding - but with more resistance adjusted in if loaded.

Torsion bar - would help with some of those, but detract from others.

Side note: Toe in/out easily and accurately adjusted. Makes such a difference to how it tracks and rides.
Once tuned in, it's like no sidecar exists, and I can carve.

Im holding off final judgement u til I get it all assembled.
This may be an interim frame.
Just too many unknowns without building and trying.

Kinda suspect that a little structure showing could be cool - if I could sort out how to tuck the rest away.

🙂
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Lucky
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I'm loving the progress and I'm pretty excited to see the new and improved unicorn
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Addicted
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UTC quote
That's some trophy truck fab going on there! I can see you entering the Baja 1000. Your build is on a completely different level. Lovin it!
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Popcorn emoticon

Read somewhere.... " Evolution is what happens to you. Progression is what you make happen."

Crazy cool watching your progress on Unicorn 2.0
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Nedminder
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Thanks!
I'm committed to following through so that I can harvest some knowledge, even if I don't strike the target dead on the center of the bull's-eye round 1.

Welding tubes together is its own thing.
It's hard to weld what you can't see, which is what happens after about the fourth dab.

I'm experimenting with my set ups, and definitely getting a little bit better at it.
So if I come back this way again, I feel like I'll be able to progress more quickly through it.

Pics to follow.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
There are a few reasons I opted for this design using a swing arm with air shock.
Most have to do with adjustability.
Yes I can see that as an issue with the torsion-based system. Do-able, just not as easily.
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Nedminder
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Ginch wrote:
Yes I can see that as an issue with the torsion-based system. Do-able, just not as easily.
Ginch, this is normally where we start, before I determine your suggestion is the best solution.

Who dat:
A fine suggestion
A fine suggestion
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parallelogramerist
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BajaRob wrote:
That's some trophy truck fab going on there! I can see you entering the Baja 1000. Your build is on a completely different level. Lovin it!
Totally doable with a side car! I met this guy (scott) last summer when i was down in Mexico for the Sonora Rally race. Got to eat a taco dinner with him. He had tons of great stories! He's raced his side car at Pikes Peak, Baja 1000, Dakar Rally. He's still very active in the offroad rally racing community creating roadbooks for rally racing.

http://www.hogwildracing.com/bike.shtml

The guy would know all about fabricating an offroad side car, but Ned is definitely the go to guy for a leaning sidecar. But maybe there's some ideas in the link that can be gleaned over for some ideas?
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Nedminder
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Off-road sidecar at pikes?!
Sounds like fun!

Lean.
Counter steer.
Throttle.

As for this pic - good example of where it looks like I got lost and was just wandering in a circle with the torch.

May need to clean this spot up:
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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One more suggestion... ROFL emoticon
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Ossessionato
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I don't think it looks steam punk. Just really nice lines with a very high level of machining and construction. The eye is drawn to the craftsmanship.

The steam punk aesthetic seems to have a lot of unnecessary ornamentation using items that are supposed to look functional, but are obviously are not if you know what you are looking at.

Anyway, it's beautiful work.
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charlieman22 wrote:
As for this pic - good example of where it looks like I got lost and was just wandering in a circle with the torch.

May need to clean this spot up:
Envious of the welding, period!

I need to live next door…
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Lucky
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Lucky
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UTC quote
orwell84 wrote:
I don't think it looks steam punk. Just really nice lines with a very high level of machining and construction. The eye is drawn to the craftsmanship.

The steam punk aesthetic seems to have a lot of unnecessary ornamentation using items that are supposed to look functional, but are obviously are not if you know what you are looking at.

Anyway, it's beautiful work.
Agreed. It's more of a retro-modernist look, with the modern elements thrust forward rather than subtley integrated like in a resto-mod, making them the focal element rather than something that is hidden or non-obvious, except to the discerning eye.

Literally art. I can't wait to see it.
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chandlerman wrote:
Agreed. It's more of a retro-modernist look, with the modern elements thrust forward rather than subtley integrated like in a resto-mod, making them the focal element rather than something that is hidden or non-obvious, except to the discerning eye.

Literally art. I can't wait to see it.
Thought you were calling me a windbag for a moment and I would wholeheartedly agree without taking offense. But I think you are serious and I agree. It's art, not just superb craftsmanship.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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orwell84 wrote:
Thought you were calling me a windbag for a moment and I would wholeheartedly agree without taking offense. But I think you are serious and I agree. It's art, not just superb craftsmanship.
I was 100% serious.

I was subjected to a LOT of art appreciation when I was growing up, even if you'd never know any of it stuck to look at me.
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
Well, y'all will all be able to pass judgement soon enough.
Made some progress yesterday - but down the welding torch today so that I can work my paying job. Will be back at it tomorrow, and expect that by the end of the weekend I could be test riding
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charlieman22 wrote:
Well, y'all will all be able to pass judgement soon enough.
Made some progress yesterday - but down the welding torch today so that I can work my paying job. Will be back at it tomorrow, and expect that by the end of the weekend I could be test riding
And speedy too!

Looking forward to the test!

Pffttt paying job…
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
...and expect that by the end of the weekend I could be test riding
Woo hoo! Looking forward to this.
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
So with a Sunday deadline for test ride, and ROM barreling down on me - it was off to the shop to get wrapped up.

Finished the main frame on Friday - so being on track - I just buckled down on the tasks at hand.

Except...

That damn swing arm is bugging me.
It's so out of scale!
And way wider than it should be.
Hell - all this work and its like I'm no further ahead.

So I decided for sure to go ahead and just modify it.
Until I decided to just build a new one.

But if I was going to build a new one, then surely I should make it a single sided for a cleaner look.
I mean how hard can that be?

Until I realized that the wheel was manufactured for a 12mm axle - and that's way too small for a one sided swing arm.
So I compromised and decided to build a narrower, better scaled two sided arm.

Kidding!
(seriously - is this your first time here?)

Some pictures below of the happenings.
I'm behind - but everyone loves a good comeback.
(almost as much as they love a good live NASCAR flying pile up).
Had this thing all kinds of ways in the air trying to get an angle at the welds.
My hand only moves one way - so the work's gotta match.
Had this thing all kinds of ways in the air trying to get an angle at the welds. My hand only moves one way - so the work's gotta match.
To get everything aligned - it went on and off a few times.  Used some homemade machinist jacks to fine tune and hold level while I tacked things in place.
To get everything aligned - it went on and off a few times. Used some homemade machinist jacks to fine tune and hold level while I tacked things in place.
In situ - as the fancy folks say.  I'll gusset the joints after I test
In situ - as the fancy folks say. I'll gusset the joints after I test
Sketched out on a piece of 3/4" aluminum - before the fur started to fly
Sketched out on a piece of 3/4" aluminum - before the fur started to fly
Fur flying
Fur flying
Here's the design.  Realized I could hang the brake caliper off the back - and avoid the fancy Asian made anodized AF style holder that I bought.  Back at it tomorrow - time is tight!
Here's the design. Realized I could hang the brake caliper off the back - and avoid the fancy Asian made anodized AF style holder that I bought. Back at it tomorrow - time is tight!
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Lucky
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UTC quote
Lookin' good!

I sense that we're going to be putting the finishing touches on this thing at 2am before we're supposed load up for ROM at 9 the next morning.

But isn't that what rallies are for?
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Kidding!
(seriously - is this your first time here?)
Well, there really seems to be very little you can't do. Excuse me if I believed you!
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I would not bet ham against a spectacular, on-time finish.
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Birdsnest wrote:
I would not bet ham against a spectacular, on-time finish.
Neither would I, this man is a wizard.
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
Ha!
I need to take u guys with me where ever I go.

No wizard sleeves.
🙂

Bits and pieces coming together.
Time ticking away.
Everything taking longer than planned.

With that said, got the swing arm cutting done tday. Tomorrow I'll try and build the rest of it.
It won't be as long as it looks in the pic.
I'm going to cut another piece at the other end.
Just need it attached to give me something to clamp.

Sorted out a plan for the wheel bearings as well.
Will show that when I build the axel.

Plan is to forgo the full brake implementation at this point - in no small part because bleeding a double brake might crush my sole.

Scoot will be fine with no sidecar brake.
Doesn't have one now.
Good chance to see how it feels with the lighter swing weight anyway.
Almost there
Almost there
Something like this
Something like this
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Nedminder
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Some of you may have assumed I've been too busy to post.
Others may have wondered if I'm trapped under something heavy, and unable to reach the computer - I'm looking at you Greasy.

Alas - I have been at it - but had to pay some bills.
An update below of the goings on.
Full of errors - but none (so far) are killers.
Consider them battle scars.

Have a tech challenge with single sided swing arm.
1. Wheel was made to use 12mm axel. That's too small for a one sided axle.
2. Have to transition from aluminum to steel for axle - not possible to weld - unless I wanna JB Weld.
3. Even if I have a large axle (e.g. 20mm), it has to transfer load to swing arm with single connection point - very high stress.

So with that in mind - below are my solutions and status.
ROM clock ticking...
The wheel had these 12mm ID bearings
The wheel had these 12mm ID bearings
Found these 1" ID bearings with same OD online
Found these 1" ID bearings with same OD online
Bought 4 - so I could double up on both sides
Bought 4 - so I could double up on both sides
All pressed in.  This should work to spread load - problem 1 solved
All pressed in. This should work to spread load - problem 1 solved
Took a honkin big piece of steel bar - 2" diameter - from scrap pile and turned it down to 1" for the axle - leaving a 1.5" head on it
Took a honkin big piece of steel bar - 2" diameter - from scrap pile and turned it down to 1" for the axle - leaving a 1.5" head on it
Cutting the threads was a bear at first - but found a way to power thread using the lathe in back gear
Cutting the threads was a bear at first - but found a way to power thread using the lathe in back gear
Bored a hole through center to remove some weight - this thing is a beast
Bored a hole through center to remove some weight - this thing is a beast
Then pressed that into a big ass aluminum bushing that I can weld to the swing arm - problem 2 and 3 solved
Then pressed that into a big ass aluminum bushing that I can weld to the swing arm - problem 2 and 3 solved
Hacked off the end on my milled part so I would have both sides of the swing arm for the mount
Hacked off the end on my milled part so I would have both sides of the swing arm for the mount
And here it is - tacked up and ready for weld
And here it is - tacked up and ready for weld
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Lucky
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UTC quote
Looking good!

And for the record, I was also Team Trapped Under Something Heavy.
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
Looking good!

And for the record, I was also Team Trapped Under Something Heavy.
I thought the engineer was supposed to be hoisted by their own pétard, not smooshed by it?

P.S. Learned of a new word sub tonight, and how to successfully write pie.
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Nedminder
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Welding:
Just twist the wrist here - turn the corner there.
Stack stack stack - like liquid mercury.
Solved!

Until it's not.
Good lord - I have had some ugly moments.
Struggled to even make something I felt was structurally sound.
Some form of contamination often the cause.
Pitted cratering volcanic holes from spark throwing torch, destroy my carefully machined pieces.

Man this is frustrating.

With Chandler(man) arriving - and a planned meet up at MJ Rally's with SoCal to hand off scoots for ROM - this Wed - I'm feeling the pressure to finish something.
Anything.

Managed to find time to get the swing arm mount fabricated over the weekend - and today it found its way onto the chassis.
Some pics of the circus below - in no particular order.
A welding "good moment".   This is the swing arm base.
A welding "good moment". This is the swing arm base.
Fitted.  Project Pinky approved level
Fitted. Project Pinky approved level
Welded up
Welded up
Random glamour shot
Random glamour shot
To get the angle on the swing arm base, I machined the holes after I welded it up - at which point I realized I'd snookered myself and couldn't drill the bottom tube
To get the angle on the swing arm base, I machined the holes after I welded it up - at which point I realized I'd snookered myself and couldn't drill the bottom tube
So I did what any machinist would do - and connected two tools together.    Lower tool had just a hair of run out... 🙂 (don't try this at home)
So I did what any machinist would do - and connected two tools together. Lower tool had just a hair of run out... 🙂 (don't try this at home)
Frame is mostly complete.  I have to work out the shock/suspension now - which is its own task.  Then add gussets for life affirming structure, and tabs for connecting the body.
Frame is mostly complete. I have to work out the shock/suspension now - which is its own task. Then add gussets for life affirming structure, and tabs for connecting the body.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9825
Location: Nashville

38 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9825
Location: Nashville

38 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
Lookin' good!

You'll get the job done. I'm bummed I'm going to miss the run down to see Malcolm, but I blame Southwest Airlines doing away with their direct flight from Nashville to SNA.
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2394
 
Ossessionato
@108 avatar
V range 50s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2394
UTC quote
Proper fabrication skills right there…

I think there's literally nothing you can't make for the Vespa now…

English wheel maybe?
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9825
Location: Nashville

38 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9825
Location: Nashville

38 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
108 wrote:
English wheel maybe?
I'm pretty sure he's mentioned one in the past.
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8671
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8671
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
Looking amazing.

I see your toe-in adjustment, is the caster fixed?
What do you do about camber, or don't you need it with a leaner?
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4094
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4094
Location: california
UTC quote
Last full day before ROM exit.
Pace is at a crawl as I am fabricating small bits to make the suspension work.
If I can't finish today, the old frame has to go back on.

Part of the slow pace is just figuring out what the geometry should be.
Part of it is, part of it is trying to figure out how to create the parts in CAD, and part of it is the actual fabrication.

Ginch - no camber castor. I decided to go fixed at 90. Toe in should do the job.
Allows on the fly height adjustment without creating weirdness.

108 - looking for an English wheel to add!
Decided my clamp was too tall, and took the knee shaking step of cutting it down
Decided my clamp was too tall, and took the knee shaking step of cutting it down
This was a moment
This was a moment
This was also a moment…  slipped in the vice. Luckily recoverable as that all got cut off
This was also a moment… slipped in the vice. Luckily recoverable as that all got cut off
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Tabs made two up, then I cut in half.
Tabs made two up, then I cut in half.
Last thing I cut before I shut down last night.  Bottom shock mount/ tie rod tab. Off to start welding
Last thing I cut before I shut down last night. Bottom shock mount/ tie rod tab. Off to start welding
UTC

Hooked
px 125 disc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 314
Location: Essex, GB
 
Hooked
px 125 disc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 314
Location: Essex, GB
UTC quote
When do you go into production?
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vbc vmb
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8238
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vbc vmb
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8238
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
Crazy cool. And the effort is ham-worthy even if you blow past theROM deadline. Watching you fab this up has been an absolute treat. Keep swinging.
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5213
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5213
UTC quote
I'm glad i wasn't a fly on the wall when the clamp slipped in the vice. No doubt your eyes got really big and your heart sank.
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