OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
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UTC quote
Chandlerman landed about 5 and I asked him to Uber in.
Figured it wouldn't be long until I was rolling.

He posted up with some good ideas - and then did a little vacuum and sweep around the milling machine and shop.
So things wet shaping up perfectly for the night.

As I type, he's taken my truck to meet MJ and SoCal to pick up his scoot - while I cut the final piece for the suspension.

It went pretty well - until… I realized my suspension design doesn't work.
Hahahahah.

I mean not at all. Did u know that multi link suspensions have a second link down at the pivot?
Well - neither did I until just now when I went to look up the model for my drain and noticed this:
What's that doing hiding down there?!?
What's that doing hiding down there?!?
I'm happier times, using the mill to draw my part to test
I'm happier times, using the mill to draw my part to test
The hammer component that was going to actuate the shock
The hammer component that was going to actuate the shock
Rinsing it to get it all ready for assembly and welding
Rinsing it to get it all ready for assembly and welding
In place, on it's abec 9 orange colored bearings, ready for test
In place, on it's abec 9 orange colored bearings, ready for test
I would have needed to allow the lower pivot point to also have a link to move. 
Not tonight… old frame going back on tomorrow
I would have needed to allow the lower pivot point to also have a link to move. Not tonight… old frame going back on tomorrow
UTC

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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UTC quote
Oof, talk about snatching ham from the Jaws of Victory...

Ya made a good fist of it though, sir.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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UTC quote
All hope is not lost, but the next iteration may still have to wait until after ROM.
Ned TIG'ing away in a happier moment
Ned TIG'ing away in a happier moment
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
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UTC quote
hahaha.
Thanks AZL for the chuckle - and CM for the pic.

On my way down the hill - I realized what the fix would be.
It will have to wait - but here it is:

Issue is having two fixed pivot points that aren't aligned.
Fix is to align them...
This pivot should have been on the same blue axle.  I can modify it to work nicely I think - just cut a slot in my clamp axle holder and remake the shock "hammer".  Just not this ROM...
This pivot should have been on the same blue axle. I can modify it to work nicely I think - just cut a slot in my clamp axle holder and remake the shock "hammer". Just not this ROM...
@qascooter avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
@qascooter avatar
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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UTC quote
So close! Oh well, amazing work in the time you had. Probably better to test not on a rally anyway Razz emoticon

Have a fantastic time at ROM. I'm so envious... maybe one of these years....
@bajarob avatar
UTC

Addicted
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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Addicted
@bajarob avatar
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UTC quote
Ned, thinking about you just now. First time using this device. We usually have the bigger jars.
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@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
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Ossessionato
@108 avatar
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UTC quote
Damn…

That's the best looking fail I've seen in a while…!

Definitely looks the business the custom creation.

I'm imagining it's totally locked in place the pivots?

It's gonna be awesome when it's finished…
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
Joined: UTC
Posts: 242
Location: Belgium
 
Hooked
@colinbelgium avatar
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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Location: Belgium
UTC quote
Oh boy that is looking fantastic !!
@oopsclunkthud avatar
UTC

Banned
3:5
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Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
@oopsclunkthud avatar
3:5
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UTC quote
you built a 3 bar link, impressive!
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8643
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
So close!

I thought for a minute that you would have to take it without a sidecar. How silly of me!
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
qascooter wrote:
Have a fantastic time at ROM. I'm so envious... maybe one of these years....
Crime you're not joining us! Guess I will have to drag the unicorn north one of these days.
Quote:
First time using this device. We usually have the bigger jars.
Just had a look at my pad - the epoxy is stained brown from the fuel. Other than that - it shows no sign of deterioration - I'm a believer.
Quote:
That's the best looking fail I've seen in a while…!
Full face plant - but never say never...
Quote:
Oh boy that is looking fantastic !!
thanks. Trophy for my desk for the time being - but has really forced my hand on new skills.
Quote:
you built a 3 bar link, impressive!
Not a MM of travel - which is a testament to two things:
1. Tight tolerance build
2. I'm a moron.

With that said - I think I have my solution at hand - and it's going to work nicely. Time is just my enemy this week - so it will have to wait. Man is that frame light tho.
Quote:
I thought for a minute that you would have to take it without a sidecar. How silly of me!
Like Jimmy without Robbert, or Fred without Ginger. I mean - I suppose it's ok - if you don't mind normal.

🙂. Thanks for the good comments y'all.
I'm off to the shop to get the old frame on and aligned (ugh) - so we can load up and head north. Wish us luck.
@bajarob avatar
UTC

Addicted
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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Addicted
@bajarob avatar
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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UTC quote
You have mad skills, no luck needed. 🙂👍
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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UTC quote
It was beautiful work. It just lacked the "work" part.
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
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UTC quote
Ridden every day since returning from ROM, up to my local.
First kick each time.
Tday - first kick NP.
Went back in shop to let it warm up while I cleaned up a bit.

Came out to see gear oil on ground.
Huh?!

Shot this vid.
Seal?
?si=VfBveVAMOD-CySKo
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8643
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Posts: 8643
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
There's certainly pressure in that gearbox!
@hibbert avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1668
Location: California
 
Molto Verboso
@hibbert avatar
Vespa
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Location: California
UTC quote
What the hay?
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
wow...all I can guess is that the clutch side seal completely let go get that much pressure bubbling up through the breather.

That's a serious bummer right there.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4526
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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UTC quote
With your type of seal this is less usual. Might just be the leaning over on the clutch side. You never know, could be lucky. Pressure test wont take long to confirm either way.
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
bubblin crude
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
whodatschrome wrote:
bubblin crude
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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UTC quote
Well, the first thing you know
Old Ned's a millionaire …
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
The Laguna.....Hillsbillies!
@qascooter avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Posts: 4234
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
@qascooter avatar
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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UTC quote
I knew y'all were thinking the same thing I was! Razz emoticon

And I haven't been able to get the song out of my head...
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
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@108 avatar
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UTC quote
Woah… that's like a mini eruption…!

I'm not sure a seal leak would cause it to be gushing out like that…

Might just be a siphoning effect of the spinning clutch and the amount of oil.

How much oil did you have in there?
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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UTC quote
108 wrote:
How much oil did you have in there?
All of it, apparently Razz emoticon

Seriously, though, he filled it before ROM (and didn't over-fill--I was there), put a couple hundred miles on it, and suddenly it starts doing that.
@bajarob avatar
UTC

Addicted
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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Addicted
@bajarob avatar
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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UTC quote
Reminds me of when Mount St. Helens blew in 80'. We got ashes in Anaheim. Nobody said anything but does that goo smell like gas got in there? Doesn't seem likely the gear oil expanded enough to lava crawl out the top.
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
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Ossessionato
@108 avatar
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
All of it, apparently Razz emoticon

Seriously, though, he filled it before ROM (and didn't over-fill--I was there), put a couple hundred miles on it, and suddenly it starts doing that.
So 250-300ml?

Yeah looks like it's emptied it all too… lol

If it's more, could be just the clutch scooping it all up… or there's a ton of debris helping push up…

Because if it's the seal, it has to have enough pressure to push the oil from the bottom, as well as to keep the motor running… so I'm not sure if it's the seal…
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
So here are the deets.
1. Sent Chandler & John to buy a cow with the pennies I'd saved. They came back with some Motul 10-30 for my gear box which I beat them with a broom over - before I filled the cases. Seamed kinda thin. Didn't see any giants.
2. Noticed some surging going up a mountainside in 4th on pipe in first few miles of ROM - realized clutch was probably slipping as it got temperature in it - but didn't have it happen again the next 90 miles so I forgot about it. Maybe unrelated.
3. We filled it - somewhat above the line - if there was a line. by tilting the scoot. Chandler was doing the tilting so couldn't see just how much - but it was somewhat overfull.
4. I left it idling for about 5 minutes today - and it was leaning to the left as it warmed.
5. Man - it was like mount Vesuvius - tho it idled beautifully.
6. I tested that seal - and I pressure tested entire motor before all above occurred.

The oil coming out was positively sudsy - which kinda suggest it was getting whipped - perhaps with air - tho in my experience I've never seen a motor making that much pressure rather than sucking oil IN to it.

I'll pressure test tomorrow if I get the chance - and go get some good old cheap Pennzoil 90 weight mineral gear oil - if it holds.

Would not be surprised if it has zero pressure holding capability tho - that was bizarre.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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UTC quote
Something seems to have contaminated and thickened the oil. It looks like cake batter. Not sure what, though.
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
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@108 avatar
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UTC quote
10w30 should be ok.

Wouldn't shoot the messenger yet… (maybe later…)

Agree with CM on the pancake batter analogy… wonder if it doesn't have defoaming agent (it needs that or it will foam up… with the spinning gears)

Maybe that's the case… just swap out the oil.
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
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UTC quote
Quote:
Because if it's the seal, it has to have enough pressure to push the oil from the bottom, as well as to keep the motor running… so I'm not sure if it's the seal…

Would be nice if your right.
I don't really have any experience with internal leaks.
Has anyone ever had oil piss out like that?
I always presume the worst.

Kinda hard to believe it would idle so nicely if it was just pissing all it's pressure out - but maybe.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Pressure test will tell the story.
Wammo Super Elastic Bubble Plastic.
Wammo Super Elastic Bubble Plastic.
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
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Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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UTC quote
Quote:
Something seems to have contaminated and thickened the oil.
Hopefully not a bunch of 2T

🙂
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
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@108 avatar
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UTC quote
Yeah pressure tested on engines with seal leaks and crankcase gasket leaks…

They've never had oil come out of the breather.

They always have low gear box oil levels… like really low… 100ml or so.

I had oil coming out of the breather, but only a dribble… and that's because of the side stand. Nothing gushing out.

Yeah I was looking the Motul 7100 doesn't seem to have defoamer…

Might be the answer to the question…
@ray8 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Joined: UTC
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Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
@ray8 avatar
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Location: Los Angeles
UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Pressure test will tell the story.
Do the breather mod I posted on tips tricks.

Test the seal with a finger.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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15 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Location: Nashville

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UTC quote
The part I can't figure out is why it waited until now to break bad. I've had a bad seal leak gas into the gearbox, but it thinned the oil and made it smell like gas.

If it doesn't smell like gas, then I withdraw my initial seal diagnosis.

I think I would drain the gearbox, refill, run it enough to warm the oil up, then change it again and see what it does.
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7129
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Any chance some water got in the case during our rainy drive up to ROM?
@bajarob avatar
UTC

Addicted
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 749
Location: Ventura, CA
 
Addicted
@bajarob avatar
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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Location: Ventura, CA
UTC quote
If you boys put this in, it has anti-foam.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
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Ossessionato
@108 avatar
V range 50s
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UTC quote
BajaRob wrote:
If you boys put this in, it has anti-foam.
Mineral trans oil will work…
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8376
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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UTC quote
BajaRob wrote:
If you boys put this in, it has anti-foam.
yeah that's the one. it seemed high fallutin' and fancy so we figured we'd shell out for the unicorn.
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4077
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
UTC quote
Thank you for all the responses you guys.

Raining here, but with short window, managed to switch out the oil and restart on idle.

Results basically the same, though less foamy.

I have some kinda internal failure.
Could be seal.
Could be weld.

Motors gonna have to come out.
I'll put it up on the rotisserie and see if I can spot the leak.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Bubbles visible in oil as it escapes.
Bubbles visible in oil as it escapes.
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