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Nedminder
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Findings.
Holds pressure.
See pics below time stamped.

Ex flange was very loose - missing 3 of 4 bolts I probably slung at anyone unfortunate enough to be chasing me at ROM.

I'm going to guess this was my surgeons feel - as it fell on and off the pipe.
Don't think that's related to my oil puking issue tho.

Best guess - something only effected when running? Not sure I believe that either.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Raining now - but I'll put a tube on breather and see what kinda pressure I might feel.

This one is bizarre.
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Hypothesis:
when it was spitting the oil out it had been warming up while leaned over to the left, correct? The oil would have pooled around the cush gear and that would be flinging it up into the clutch cover area. While this was making a frothy mess in the clutch cover the case and air inside would have been warming up, pushing the santorum out the breather.
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Patric.
Thanks for weighing in.

I always presume worse: but I'm now inclined to think some combination of factors is at play here - along the lines you propose.

The case is air tight.
It held as shown for 30+ min before I took it off to leave the shop.

Factors:
- It was in fact leaning left.
- I also am suspect regarding the motul - tho they make a quality product - it sure looked like it got affected.
- bit over filled
- *there was no evidence of fuel in the trans oil when I emptied. I'll rerun that test tomorrow into a clean container to re-confirm.
- it's air tiiiiight on test as noted.
- No racing or signs of lean condition. Runs superbly right now.

*The lack of fuel in the oil suggests some kinda contamination or foaming of the motul.
I'm otherwise at a loss.

Chandler suggested I flush the cases with some kerosene.
Perhaps run it on idle for a few and let it rinse out any remaining oil.
Then refil.

Think I will do that and something along the lines of Rays mod and make a high loop of sorts for my breather.
The lean angle
The lean angle
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charlieman22 wrote:
Think I will do that and something along the lines of Rays mod and make a high loop of sorts for my breather.
That, and a taller block of wood.
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I don't think it's the lean…

I've always used side stands… and had engines running on the lean.

its dribbles at best… this was before I added the Egig acorn

Edit: changing and autocorrect …
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Quote:
block of wood
My calling card.
2T oiled
Quote:
I don't think it's the lean…
Suspect combo of issues.
Something's foaming the oil.
Maybe the oil itself.
Something is up!
IDK!

I've had the covers dribble due to poor seal.
I've had the ears crack off the covers that were machined too thin.
But I've never seen one pump out its guts all over my parking lot.

I'm gonna flush and try again - with a careful eye on what comes out of the case.
It should be triple fresh.
I wanna know if any petrol is in there.

108 - that P2 sounds beautifully jetted.
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What's the acorn's operating physics?
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charlieman22 wrote:
What's the acorn's operating physics?
Yeah the 221 is setup pretty well. Honestly it's all thanks to guys on the forum pointing the way… if not, would have never gotten to that point.

Small DIY project with the acorn?

It uses a ball bearing inside… with some tiny channels on the side. Ball lifts up when the pressure is too high.

There's a few German folks who have made their own, but Egig sells them on SIP.
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Quote:
Small DIY project with the acorn?
😁

It's possible.
Pondering a plan.
It's not a fix - it shouldn't need a fix.
Has always worked.
But I've also always hated the splurge on the left side - so I want for that reason.

What ever is going on now is a changed state.
Failed something or contaminated something.

Will have to find.
Thanks for explanation!
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charlieman22 wrote:
😁

It's possible.
Pondering a plan.
It's not a fix - it shouldn't need a fix.
Has always worked.
But I've also always hated the splurge on the left side - so I want for that reason.

What ever is going on now is a changed state.
Failed something or contaminated something.

Will have to find.
Thanks for explanation!
Oh for sure, that's not the solution to your mount Vesuvius problem… it's a nice to have… rainy day lathe project.

There's something else with the rate it's spitting oil…

My money is still on the oil… maybe a mix of the oil and new? The amount that was left on the clutch plates isn't insignificant.
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I don't think the lean has anything to do with it.

The beast has about the same lean angle and doesn't spew oil (see below).

It's possible that there's something stuck in your clutch cover causing oil to kick out the breather as it spins off the clutch. Pull the clutch cover and take a peek.

Also … try some good old ND30.
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Wait, that's more than one person who's mentioned something in the clutch cover. Dirt, stuff, I don't know what.

You guys lost me. How could some trash in my clutch cover create the flows I'm seeing?

I'm seeing more than one vote for getting the oil fully rinsed out, and I'm definitely on board for that
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I've seen the oil pumping out of the acorn many times. Always associated with leaning. An open pipe up from the acorn is enough to stop it.
So strange its not happened until now.
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Undo the breather and put your finger over the hole while it's running. Is there pressure?
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If you're losing bolts you know what to do (see pic). Maybe try a different oil?? I use Valvoline or Elf / Total 10W40 JASO MA2 (motorcycle oil) as suggested by BGM for their clutch and CR discs. Never had issues and I fill up to 500ml…
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Quote:
oil?? I use Valvoline or Elf / Total 10W40 JASO MA2 (motorcycle oil)
Tks.
Is that a synthetic or mineral?
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boo to leak

yay to leak appearing after the fun was already had at ROM
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sdjohn wrote:
boo to leak

yay to leak appearing after the fun was already had at ROM
So true, so true.
You and Chandler may have been unfairly slandered, after making such an awesome effort all around. Lunch was also spectacular and much needed.
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I used Redline MTL in the transmissions of all my bikes for ~20 years, including bikes that had side stands on the left.

I switched to Motul TransOil after smoking the clutch on my smallframe, though I'm not really sure one is better than the other.
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charlieman22 wrote:
Tks.
Is that a synthetic or mineral?
Synthetic, not mineral…
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Bit of time to dick around with it today.
Whipped up an extension tube off the breather hole on clutch cover.
Not sure I have all the answers yet.
Few things I've found:
- Scoot continues to run very nicely.
- Breather tube has no suction or pressure on it - when I put finger over - at any rev range - at any temperature.
- Somehow - splash seems to be more than it used to be. Breather tube extension does have some oil in it. I never really had any oil (that I noticed) come out of the old breather. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- There is no petrol in gear box oil
- There seams like a lot of metal flakes in the oil. Not sure cause or provenance. Some are definitely aluminum/ non magnetic. Usually - that's the sort of thing you see before a motor gives up the ghost?
- I've flushed out the cases decently with some kerosene by filling and starting for a few minutes - then draining. Imperfect - but reasonable means.

All sorts of possibilities. Could be:
- My motor was open on the side for weeks - in my shop. table is near enough to mill that it got chips/dust.
- Golden color of metallic kinda looks like clutch disc. Could also be that.
- Something weird going on with the clutch - which is both creating flakes and slinging more oil than usual.
- E: Any of the above.

Next move:
- I'm gonna run the extended breather tube and see how short I can go without it wanting to piss out.
- Ride it. See how it goes.
First time emptying with some kerosene mixed in
First time emptying with some kerosene mixed in
second round.  seamed like the metal flakes were floating - last to exit, non magnetic
second round. seamed like the metal flakes were floating - last to exit, non magnetic
From second emptying.  That is a piece of aluminum shaving.  Could be something is floating around a bit in there and it's shaving off one of my weld high points, or something totally different! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
From second emptying. That is a piece of aluminum shaving. Could be something is floating around a bit in there and it's shaving off one of my weld high points, or something totally different! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Was your breather breathing prior to ROM?
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Im pretty sure it was.
My money is on the wrong oil driving my issues - and everything water falling from that.
Not sure if that waterfall is dried up yet or still flowing...
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Golden colour might be brass? (Educated guess, not to scare you or anything…)

From the clutch…

Ask me how I know… lol
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motul transoil 10w30

Looks like greasy likes it
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Yes, probably.
The brass plunger has been replaced by a ball bearing plunger.
(I quite like it - but think one blew up on Ginch. )

The clutch is a super strong.
It's got a brass bushing.
I've replaced as it was worn enough to stay on the crank when I pull off the clutch.

To my surprise, the new one does the same.
Suggests my clutch housing itself has worn - as I understand this bearing is supposed to be a press fit.
Perhaps I should examine.

Likely the donor of brass flakes if I had to guess.

I don't think I would see as much if I emptied the oil again as that was probably rinsed out from the changes.
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sdjohn wrote:
motul transoil 10w30

Looks like greasy likes it
been running it for years with no ill effects, same as Mr. Owens, all kinds of motors and applications.
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at this point I'd be pulling the clutch to investamagate the crime scene.

a tear down inspection might yield more clues than what could become a post mortem autopsy...

the flaky flaky is sus AF, and leads me to think something is rubbing and that's the swarf coming off the meeting. the rest looks fairly standard mechanic's glitter on a high HP teardown.
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Quote:
the flaky flaky is sus AF
For those of you not fully conversant in Greasy - allow me to trans-communicate.

That piece of silver on my finger tip has set off the buzzers on Greasy's well earned radar.
Some of us might rationalize the issue away - a sorta "look ma know hands" moment just before the crash.
And I only half heartedly offer my version here.

The flakes are freaky - but few. There was one like that - others were part of the diaspora.

I think they are either part of the wear of the clutch cover, or from the welds I made - if the gears are loosening a bit and brushing the built up areas.

You may - or may not - recall, I had a crack in my crankshaft cavity of the cases.
My recovery from that entailed a bunch of welding - and some grind back of those welds to create space for the primary to spin.
Some pics of that below.

I'm going to monitor for time being.
If I see more aluminum in the oil - pull the cover.
Sunny out - and it sure is nice to rip around a little.
This was the area I welded up that I think might be prone to some gears shaving it.
This was the area I welded up that I think might be prone to some gears shaving it.
Funny to look back now - I was really not very confident with my milling skills if I went at this with a Dremel?  In any event - this is the area that got cut back by hand.
Funny to look back now - I was really not very confident with my milling skills if I went at this with a Dremel? In any event - this is the area that got cut back by hand.
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I'm surprised you don't have that clutch out by now. I guess if it had happened before ROM it would be gathering dust on the bench right now!

Yeah I had a one-piece pushrod/thrust bearing that sip don't sell any more. Probably a Grade-A replacement part. Broke my clutch and cover.
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charlieman22 wrote:
For those of you not fully conversant in Greasy - allow me to trans-communicate.

That piece of silver on my finger tip has set off the buzzers on Greasy's well earned radar.
Some of us might rationalize the issue away - a sorta "look ma know hands" moment just before the crash.
And I only half heartedly offer my version here.

The flakes are freaky - but few. There was one like that - others were part of the diaspora.
hahaha, yes. thank you for the translation.

so a little peek behind the curtain of what I do when I'm not working on scooters (I mean besides gentleman farmer and exotic dancer) is I play vintage car mechanic. more pointedly, transmission stuff. I mean yeah, other disciplines too, but I rebuild a bunch of the old voodoo science juice boxes and them row your own rock crushers. so in the realm of transmission-dom when you have an alum case and you see stuff like that flake it's bad ju-ju. and not like call a Santeria priestess kinda fix, more like open your wallet and I'm sticking my hand in up to the elbow kinda deal.

here's why: that flake represents something having contact. it's not chips (also bad), or glitter (bad, but expected bad), or friction material (meh, it's supposed to do that), so it sets off the alarms. in essence it means a steel spinny bit has come into contact with the stationary alum bit. and that means something moved. something that's not supposed to move. something that has a critical tolerance or a specific clearance no longer has one, or the other, or both maybe, probably.

on automatic transmissions you'd see metal flake up like this when the front pump would go south or the direct drum would eat up the bearings and then they'd start shaving the case down. same on a alum case 4spd, the counter shaft would get sloppy and because the clearance for the gears is close, they'd start rubbing on the case. if you were aware enough to catch it the cog box would start sounding like a cement mixer and be chonky to shift so it might be salvageable. but if not, you'd hang a speed gear into main shaft usually 2/3 shift and all the weebles would wobble right out onto the pavement. this generally will coincide with the sound of a paycheck growing wings and flying off.

anyway, all this to say. I see flake and my lizard brain says: no me gusta. something is moving. danger! danger!
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Cush gear springs bulge the cover plate and that rubs on the case?
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Possible something isn't right inside the clutch cover.
Not sure what - and weather has precluded any heavy riding.

Might get out this week and beat it up the hill a few times befor looking at the oil again to see if I'm still shedding - rather than shredding.

Mean time - I've been tinkering away with suspension.
Had a few hours at the shop this morning and whipped up a new "hammer".

Few pics of status below.
Think this is gonna work.
Ram the first pass with a sharpie in the tool.  Really like this for making sure I'm on track.
Ram the first pass with a sharpie in the tool. Really like this for making sure I'm on track.
Few laps around the track and it was ready for action
Few laps around the track and it was ready for action
Here it is with the pivot points welded in
Here it is with the pivot points welded in
Here it is for up. Need to fab an adapter for the shock - but it's close and it seams to compress the shock nicely.
Here it is for up. Need to fab an adapter for the shock - but it's close and it seams to compress the shock nicely.
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Magic.

Can't wait to see how this turns out.
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Wow think the new side car exceeds the tech on many scooters dog is going to love it!
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I have been staring at it for 20 minutes and still have no idea how it works. But it looks freaking awesome.
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Hahaha.
Video to follow.

Work will tie me up first half of week.
Should be back at by Thirs/Fri.
Would like to get the frame done and see what it's like to have a decent suspension on the side car - and figure out some kind of brake system and mud guard
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5177
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5177
UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Hahaha.
Video to follow.

Work will tie me up first half of week.
Should be back at by Thirs/Fri.
Would like to get the frame done and see what it's like to have a decent suspension on the side car - and figure out some kind of brake system and mud guard
So what are your ideas for a hack's brake? Questions off the top of my head...

If you link the rear scooter brake with the hack's brake, would you go fully hydro?

An adjustable proportioning valve would probably have to be plumbed in?

The rear master cylinder would probably have to have a larger than normal brake piston in order to move enough brake fluid for two separate calipers?

The Cosa scooter had linked front and rear hydro drum brakes. So maybe something you could glean from that model?
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4076
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4076
Location: california
UTC quote
Good questions.
I need help.
Hope y'all weigh in.

Overview:
- I wanna do full hydro.
- I want it to be tied in to front brake - so when I get on the front, rather than allowing the sidecar weight to bear down on the fork, I get some drag from it. This should give me some nice improvement to the sensation of weight when heavy braking.
- which means, it's front master cyl driven & I need a proportioning valve - as u note.
- The swing arm was designed to allow the caliper to be bolted on (radial).
- I expect an empty sidecar to need far less braking force then front wheel of scoot
- my master cyl is same as whodats.
Maybe 9 or 10mm? (MMW).


The questions are many.
1. Can it operate two calipers?
2. If no - why
3. What would ideal master cyl piston and reservoir be? I'm not shy bout modifying stuff…

Welcome some insights/ discussion on this one, before I proceed.
Suck at it later in week.
OP
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4076
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4076
Location: california
UTC quote
Uh… I mean "Back at it…"
Let's hope I don't suck at it
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