Modern Vespa

Ha! - happens to me all the time. Like - may just happen - now that I am versed in assembly/disassembly of cyl. But I wanna know what ea. moves does - so first I restart with new SIP road II. You guys are supposed to flag that for me before I pull the trigger...

Grinding looks like a total PIA - Ironically - considering how to mill.
Perhaps 6 pack.

Now if I can just figure out which way that washer goes on the crank...

Taper side to crank...

efcharisto poli Safis.

Another option is to use an aluminum clutch cover spacer. SIP makes/made them for the P/PX. I dunno if they fit the older clutch covers as well. They're about an 1/8" thick, if I remember correctly.

WDC - thanks - looks like they do fit - and also offer some pre-milled covers as well.

Plan to clamp mine down and get out the angle grinder - its... quick - though subtlety is not it's calling card.

Probably won't look as nice as the Scooter & Service milled version...

Before I get half way in and completely stuck - has anyone removed the clutch actuating arm before? Looks like there is a pressed in pin that holds it - kinda reluctant to mess with it at all.

Perhaps I will set up a little work bench with dust aimed at the neighbors yard.
They love me!

Got a photo of the pressed pin?

Should just be held by the spring.

Remove spring, pull hard. Be ready to replace o ring.

Last flight of the day done.

If you install the cylinder with new packers on the old exhaust. Check if any better (will be), then fit SRII and check for further improvement. A lot less cylinder removal. Science done with minimum effort.

Had to run errand - pesky paying job getting in way of scooter work. Had only taken quick look prior to exit. Looks like I do have a shot that shows the pin I saw tho. See below. Assumed I would have to remove. Perhaps not?

Jack - I like the approach. Would be simplest - but hungry to put bike back on road and no packers in stock in my (ever growing) new parts bin.

Will do a search and order - want to have them - and c where I am with clutch by time received.

Bigger picture: hungry to better understand levers/ trade offs for achieving additional grunt. Allow me to work less transactionaly - think through the tuning plan - operate less reactively.

French fries.

You sure that's a pin? Here's a pic of an old clutch cover I had lying around ...

Casting mark is what that is...scott

Scott/SoCal
Thanks!
Got it.
Simplifies things.

Decided to take on the grinding.
Modified my router - threw a grinding bit in it.
Was able to zip around the circle in about 10 minutes with two passes including clamping.
Greased clutch so it would mark cover when re-installed.
Fit cover - still interfered.
Moved to angle grinder - took another pass.
Fit cover - still interfered.
Changed disc to finer grind - took another pass.
Fit cover - still interfered.
Geez - this thing is getting kinda thin...
See below.

FMP notes that there are 30 different covers - some of them not fit to use. Guess I had a not fit for use version...

So off to order a cover that fits.
Options include P200, MMW modified, Scooter & Service modified, other.
Anyone have any experience good or bad with the options?
WDC - thanks for head's up on shim - led me to altered options.

Once positive about a hard face plant in front of the crowd - lots of good ideas you hear just before your head smacks the concrete. I love this forum.



Which leads to a new existential question:
If I am ordering a cover for the clutch - shouldn't I also be ordering the Polini cylinder?

That will breathe nicely now.

I've used std 200 covers and not had to do much at all to get a range of clutches to fit, including Superstrong.

About fitting clutches under the clutch cover...
First off I have a fancy small diameter (108mm O.D./96mm I.D.) DRT clutch in my souped-up T5. When i was first trying to make it fit, i ground down the clutch cover just a smidge...but it turned out that that wasn't going to cut it. Since the clutch wasn't a standard large diameter clutch, i didn't have issues with it rubbing in the normal areas inside the clutch cover (and no amount of milling inside of the clutch cover was going to make it fit). The clutch was rubbing against the clutch arm itself because the clutch was a little bit thicker overall. I ground down some of the arm, but i didn't want to take too much off. My only option was to use a clutch cover spacer. Every now and then other Vespa owners will have the same issue that i did, but it rarely happens.

So to answer why did i have such a small clutch in a tuned engine? Well, because at the time (2009ish) lots of Vespa largeframe sprint racers were having problems with heavy cluthes destroying their cranks. Their answer was to use the smaller (lighter weight) clutches in their sprint bikes. I haven't had any slipping issues with my clutch, and it accelerated about as quickly as the Smallframe Parma and Malossi kittted scooters. With two seasons of racing on the track with that T5 and beating the absolute crap out of the clutch and transmission, i never had any slipping. I would change out the friction plates because the ears would get deformed twice a season, but the cost for that was chump change and was easy to swap them out.

At one point (i think it was Parma?) manufactured a titanium clutch basket. I was hoping to get one, but for some reason (i'm guessing cost) they never released them to my knowledge.

And one more thing that i'm sure i've brought up before...sometimes by the time a Vespa smallblock is assembled with all the quality components, it can easily add up to more than what a stock P200 would cost. And yes, a smallblock can be easliy tuned to go faster than a stock P2, but nothing can beat a stock P2 for 60-65mph reliablility for thousands and thousands of miles.


Here's a link to the DRT clutches. I can't remember which one i have exactly, but it's the small diameter version. https://www.sip-scootershop.com/files/catalogue/index.html#/443

I also have a MMW once piece billet clutch in my '05 PX215. It's weighs quite a bit more than my T5's DRT clutch though.

Damn!

And just when you got clearance I suppose. Those covers are kind of thin.

I made one into a crank-pusher-outer. Worked great for a couple of years until it met a stubborn crankshaft. crACK!

You know there's a thin or fat hardened washer that can go behind the clutch. Are you now using just the thin one, chamfered ID towards the crank?

Yep - sometimes in a war, you take a bullet.
New parts on the way. When I pulled the orig. clutch - I found two.
It is sorta the MO of this builder.
Two gaskets under the carb.
Two gaskets under the carb box.
Head gasket & sealer (my personal fave).

I'm not so bothered. The mind set was - more is better - and it comes from wanting to make it as good as they could. Translated to some nice work elsewhere- and I just keep replacing the doubled up stuff.

Ironically - my new clutch fit perfectly when both washers were removed - but I couldn't get any love from the gang on removing them both. :-)

Have new cover on the way - along with about 10 other items.
Should really avoid drinking and interneting. Chuckled. Guess I coulda foregone the new breather I ordered. Good point.

Too bad about the grind through, but valiant attempt. Yet no o-ring on clutch cover... lol... True, true ... except I'd say (1) the reliability is a close call, and (2) the value of any hobby shouldn't be measured in dollars and cents. To me the fun factor of a small block makes it worth it.

True, true ... except I'd say (1) the reliability is a close call, and (2) the value of any hobby shouldn't be measured in dollars and cents. To me the fun factor of a small block makes it worth it. [/quote]

Agreed if you're alluding that a stock P200 is boring. Most of the time I like boring because I'm commuting on the highway.

I also understand about measuring our hobby in dollars and cents...I just bought $3k of go-go goodies for my Lammy a couple days ago...

Ok - so while I was ordering the clutch cover - I mighta pulled the trigger on a few other items...

More on that in a moment.

But first - question to the crowd on my crank shaft - and current set up.
Did a bit or reading - oh, this get's worse, don't worry.
Suspect I understand where the builder was taking the bike.
This from SIP catalog probably sums it best:

Paraphrase - "Compensation with a head gasket lengthens the outlet and transfer times only slightly, with the transfer timing changing more than the outlet timing = less blow down. This optimizes torque in the mid revs" This is SIP's recommendations when using a longer stroke (60mm).

So I am guessing, that my 1mm head gasket was put there to increase mid rev grunt. Which made me kind of curious about my crank shaft.

I have .75mm of barrel lift.
I measure something like .9mm - 1MM of gap from piston to top of barrel at TDC.

- How can I tell what size crank is in the motor?
- Looking at the portion of the crank that seals off the rotary pad - it appears to be machined. Is this what a stock one looks like?

Thanks!
- CM

Crank looks like it was cut at the factory.

See diagram. Measurement A will tell you if it's longstroke.

Running the S&S clutch cover for past 2 years

Works good...

This is what reading does. If you quickly run through the sinusoidal trigonometry you will see that the head gasket compensation is for the extra base gasket, which is exactly why I am suggesting you might want to put some more on the base. Thats more on.... not less on. Your guy got the compensation the right way round on the base and the wrong way on the head. Your crank most likely totally stock with an attempt at extending the ATDC which you don't really want on yours.

Thanks 108!
Might have one in the mail as I type... I've been taking decongestants for 2 weeks - but haven't managed to run through it yet. I said I think I know what he was trying to achieve - not what he was achieving.

Kidding aside, as I read the SIP verbiage in it's whole - it seams like they are saying packers under the cylinder (like you are saying/ like I have) and add a head gasket - which you have pointed out will ruin my sinuses. Am I not grasping their point?

Editor's note - this may be mute as suspect you are gonna like the other stuff I ordered to play with. ooh. thank you. helpful. will check.

I suspect now a moot point afterthought. If your guy did once have a 60mm crank in this set up, then put a 57mm in, beacuse it broke or to sell it, then your packers, head gasket and even squish would have all been, not so bad.

I've followed behind other builder's before - and wanted to throw my wrenches at them (before realizing it was my own bodgey prior work...)
Other than the double gasket stuff - don't mind this at all.
Kinda remarkable that they figured out what they did - and went to the trouble of using Piagio original parts, and FAG bearings, nice seals...

I ordered the Polini cast iron 177 - but decided to match it with the MMW Malossi head, and GS steel piston rings. I like the design of the squish on that head.

Figured you guys would have some ideas about how I am gonna want to set it up.
Pour a pint and get on your thinking caps if you want to make some suggestions.
Grabbed a hand full of base packers as well to give flexibility - but would be nice to have it all here for the build.
Looks like that head might fit down inside the Cyl?
Assume I am going to have to lift the cyl if that is the case.

That would be along the path Jack was proposing - with a sprinkle of Ginch's wreckless advice on power by throwing in the head. Best of both worlds.

Below is the head - and here is the link. They seem to have a handful of options - one says it doesn't require a packer - no idea why.
Did I get the right one?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/cylinder+head+malossi+mk+iii+_38348210

Charlieman is taking in all this info at an impressive rate of knots, don't throw him off course now Mike!
Measurement A will tell you exactly how long your conrod is, and that's all.

To measure the stroke, you need to rotate the crank from bdc to tdc. I guess it's a bit tricky, the rod needs to be at the same angle at both extremes to get an accurate measurement.
Having said that, the measurement doesn't need to be accurate down to the thou... 3mm is enough difference to make it clear fairly easily. I think that's right, though not sure why it mentions Pinasco since they sit into the cylinder, unlike the Polini. Confusing description as usual.

"60mm heads will not need additional gaskets. " Assuming you don't have a 60mm stroke crank, you should be right.

I am here:

Full disclosure... mike has given me a few nudges and direction behind scenes leading to my cyl/head combo!

Before he attempted to throw me under the bus by measuring the con rod, that is.

True enough Ginch.

I'm going to go sit in the corner now.

Ha ha! Think you're being a bit hard on yourself!

I can't even keep up with reading what you're grokking. Truly drinking from the fire hose.

Haha - nerd alert! (Takes one to know one...)

Especially since you seem to have a thing for buses...

Just remember... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bus. Regardless of whether or not you need help with that bus, or are being thrown under it.

:-)

Folks - looking for a little diagnosis for what ever I did incorrectly.
Given issues with clutch cover, set aside the SuperStrong for a day or two while I await a bigger cover.

In mean time - have re-assembled with new SIP road II exhaust and upgraded swing arm bushings.

Took one of the two washers that were used off the crank - and put the original clutch back in - with single washer, tapered inlet towards motor casing

Up-jetted from 100 main to 105 to compensate for new exhaust. Second kick started - sounds great.
Excited to run it around block to see how new pipe feels - clutch was slipping. Hmmm - its as iff clutch lever is pulled and only getting 80% grip.
Checked tension on clutch - loosened until there was visible slack.
No change.

Decided maybe the prior builder had done something crafty with that second washer - so pulled clutch and put second washer back in.
Both have taper facing engine casing.

This time - so much slippage - can't even start (flywheel turns a little - but its like I have my clutch 3/4 engaged when I try to kick it over).

Loosened clutch cable fully again. Still no improvement.
Any guesses what's going on?
Fully feels like clutch is being engaged about 75% now with two washers.
With one washer - felt like clutch was being engaged 20%.
Think I have it assembled exactly as before - there was no slippage at all.
Thoughts?
Thanks.
-CM

The washer(s) push the clutch closer to the cover and the little brass plunger that disengages it. Sounds like the plunger is not coming all the way off the clutch, thus keeping it partially disengaged. Without the clutch cable installed you should be able to push the lever some before that plunger makes contact. Here's an easy way to check it: https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2327770#2327770

Voodoo - Thank you!
Nothing like getting a little live support from the knowledgeable, at a moment of scooter frustration...


I can clearly feel the first 1/4 inch of movement of the arm with light resistance - the area when you are moving the brass part until it engages the pressure plate.

If I then push it in hard - after that first 1/4" - I can in fact turn the back wheel - without the flywheel turning. So it will disengage, and it is not pre -disengaged.

But the clutch will not hold up to basic acceleration - there is slippage.
And that slippage got 2x as bad when I added back the second washer.

In other words - it is as if the act of torquing the clutch nut down, is compressing the clutch. With two washer's it is worse than one (so bad I can't even kick it over with kick starter) but even with one washer - it is slipping.

The first 1/4" of low resistance of the clutch arm is absolutely there. Can feel it.

Any other thoughts on this one? Weird right?

It's possible that the clutch arm (the long straight portion of it) is putting pressure against the clutch basket, causing the clutch to be pressed in a smidge. With the clutch cover completely removed, do you still get any slipping when trying to kick it over?...If that is the issue, then it makes sense that you'll get more slipping when using two spacer washers, when compared to one.

+oil will probably go everywhere if the engine fires up with the cover removed, so maybe pull the spark plug cap when giving it a whirl.

...sometimes it's hard to remember what you're dealing with but I think this could be part of the problem - aftermarket parts jigged in somehow to work, that are different in many ways than stock, apparently including dimensions. I'm sure these work well when set up with proper clearances everywhere, but how to control that? Not with two washers. It may be that it requires the cover spacer and someone has found a way to cheat.

Or maybe it just needs service. Is it fresh inside?



Now I'm thinking about what your clutch has to accomplish with the heavy added load every time you start out. Could be this works great at hihger RPM's and lighter normal loads, I don't know. But in your shoes, I'd consider a 7 spring w/ CR80 plates. Perfect for soft takeoffs, even 2 up & loaded w/ stuff. Can be slow to connect but they hang on once they do. If you want better, go Cosa w/ CR plates.*

Good thing is, there's lots of good info on how to fit these parts on your motor w/ minimal modification and fuss and better advice if more ppl have been there and know all the right pieces.


* Honda CR80 clutch disk page, what have you got?

edit: just learned you're also trying old clutch that worked before. ¿6 spring, worked how well & how fresh is it now? Hmmmm, advice still holds

SIP sells different thickness washers for instances that require more (or less) spacing between the clutch and crank. But if it is a double stack of two standard thickness spacer washers, it does sound excessive! Normally one extra thick (or possibly extra thin) will do the trick.

...what's standard thickness for a P spacer...something like 2.1mm? I think i went with a 1.7 or 1.8mm in my T5. This was from about 10 years ago, so i can't remember the exact measurements of all of those shims.

I don't even try to know or understand why all the variations of this washer that possibly shipped on stock motors over the years. I know an autolube gotta have the right autolube one, but over the many nonautolube ones I've seen - there was basically only fat and thin w/ some OD variation. It seems that 1 fat was fatter than 2 thins FWIW, but never measured.

Being basically lazy, I'd pick my best guess and give it a try in the test stand, both w/ cover on & off. I then disassemble and swap if I picked wrong. Not very scientific or even helpful, but there you are.

I presoak the clutch plates and test w/ only a little oil in the gearbox and avoid spinning the axle fast. It's nice to watch your clutch going around while you check for wobble or other gremlins inside.