Modern Vespa

Managed about 20 miles on the new plug.
(note: I have been stepping down my idol jet in search of ridding 4 stroking down low. Likely has me significantly rich which may show on surface near threads).

Ran WOT for a 1/2 mile or so - then shut off engine and coasted down to stop at parking lot. First pic with pine straw in background. This was at about the 12 mile mark on new plug.

Then drove another 8 miles of general riding - pulled plug - and shot second pics with pavers in background.

May be too soon to tell from any below - but figured I'd post in any event.

Bike feels good/ seems to like the plug - hit 48+ MPH and held when on WOT.
For my rig - that's pretty good.

You may as well do it properly, which is like this:



And pin this on your workshop wall:

that plug reading diagram is awesome!

You guys are never happy until something is destroyed. Actually - I had this on my computer desktop - a digital pin of sorts. Stole it from the original thread you guys had. It's a keeper. I had used your chart to take a swing at reading the idle jet in my first post. The "surface" I referred to was the flat above the threads the chart shows is for idle jet.

As often happens - I also got back something unexpected/beneficial. In this case - Swiss & Jack flagged the plug as "not exactly the right one" & "elongated tip". I didn't even know elongated tip was a thing - outside of porn.

For those of us new to this - the challenge is moving from theoretical we read to practical we try. Below I take a more full throttled attempt. Interested to hear the gang's take on hits and misses - and my novel theory on elongated tip reading...

(Note - chopped the old plug - 'cause I wanna ride in the morning - last day - will give new plug a chop tomorrow time permitting).

Nice work with the analysis. All good for the science. No broken insulator. There's hope for your Dremel skills.

Shows that it's all great apart from one minor issue. Pilot jet way beyond rich. To get this sorted with the SI carb it means going back to the beginning (almost) and jetting again from zero.

As the box top is off it doesn't look so terrible. Put the box top on and it will struggle to even pull away.

Like said a while back the atomiser is not correct. Leave jetting until the new cylinder is on. Will take a while to set up and jetting will be quite different from now.

I does look like your timing might be too advanced as well but that's more for later too.

On plane.
Last post before take off.
If my wife asks, I am not obsessed - just diligent.

Ok Jack - let's see how u can make this thing sing with new cyl/head and jetting.

I put 75 miles on in two days running errands before leaving town. Drove like I stole entire time.
Last 300 feet were in first gear at redline - neighbors love me.
Killed engine and coasted in.
Pulled plug and chopped.

- not as cool as the ginch's cool kid's smoke ring perfection. That's for sure.
- jack - this is your last data point before cyl and malossi head, so give me my shopping list for jet stack sonits at the wait on return
- let's hear from the experts what u c with this one. Interested in everyone's read. Gave mine on old plug - yours are much more interesting!

75 miles.
Ended WOT.
Had 48/160 swapped back in at idle for last 10 miles.
160/BE3/128 MJ.
Venturi.
No filter or carb box top...

Posting on phone so can't title pics.
Colored lines for ur reference.

Thoughts?!

Can't blow smoke rings like the cool kids - but is that the fabled gray ring? Or is that black area a rush Mess?

Plug temp seams right? Burn looks to be 90 degrees - blk area 1/4 way up is from rich idle?

Swiss and SoCal,
What was the conversation U guy's were having about the tip of the electrode? (Yellow line denoting)

That is one lean looking plug!

We were talking about a visual cue on the tip that shows your timing "correct" is a small ring of clear around the top 10% or so of that center tip. Yours that is chopped is all black with no clear ring as far as I can tell in that photo, which would mean that your timing is too retarded in this ideal sense. But again, as Jack had pointed out to me, that setting your ignition timing to correct in this ideal definition may not be safe for your engine once you install performance cylinder, because the cylinder has higher compression which combined with more advanced timing this ring denotes, will lead to cylinder temps that are too high and risk seizing.

On my current setup, I'm at 14 degrees ignition timing which is 4 degrees retarded from the manufacturer suggested. This is because my cylinder temps are way too high when I advance the timing any more. So my plug looks like yours, it does not show a clear ring around the top of the center tip.

Your other image of the plug that is not chopped looks to be different because that does have the clear ring starting halfway up the tip, although the ring extends further down the tip which might mean the timing is too advanced. Then again that photo of the non chopped plug does look very lean or hot because it's white instead of chocolate.

Another plug cut down in the prime of its sparky life, sacrificed to the gods of tuning. Oh the madness.

You're reading it right. Smoke ring is decent, main may be a tad rich, nothing to worry about.

Electrode tip looks ok. Heat range is fine. Timing's tough to tell. I don't think you've run it enough to get a read on timing. The oil on the threads shows the idle mix is rich.

Now what did hacking up that plug tell you that you didn't already know from your temp gauge and 75 miles of riding?

I guess it teaches him (and us!) more about how to read a plug? I think it take a while to know when it's running how it should and when it's not quite right.
So Charlieman - as king of the second opinion - is probably finding use from this exercise.

I think though that 300 feet is not enough to get a useful reading? I've seen suggestions of half a mile...might be wrong there but I thought Jack mentioned something far longer than 300 feet.

I often say 5 miles but when I do mine I usually do the 5 mile run both ways. I feel this gives reliable results.

Some of those old 2 port, points 150's ran "22 degrees" stock timing didn't they? This is not conducive to 3 ports, tuned inlets, higher rpm or cm22. Apart from the jetting disaster. That plug does look like the timing is too far advanced. Might still be on the original timing, which is now way over?

Plane has wifi...
Obsession is such an ugly word.
Let's call it committed.

Brilliant set of responses.

Swiss: same plug both pictures. The difference is: turned 180 degrees.
On these non hemispherical heads, the plug can face any direction. Probably sat one side up and one side facing piston. Thus two different reads. With cars, guy's would "index" their plugs to face open toward piston - by trimming the plugs washer so it seated turned in desired direction. Don't know if this exists in 2 Strok?

Great to better understand ur timing strategy. Helpful.

So Cal. "What did u learn". Nothing - and everything. U and Ginch r both right. As u note - Looks to me like I managed to get where I wanted with the ride/temp approach. It's a rough hewn approach but pretty damn accurate it appears. Appreciate the upjet tips u doled out to avoid me melting down on the way.

I wanted my main a hair rich. With all this weight, it's best driven throttle pinned thru every gear (with current HP). I tried not down shifting ea gear but I never find neutral and it sounds horrifically dangerous to the gearbox as I try to move thru three gears (beers?) at once with clutch held in, coasting 40mph. So I downshift ea gear pretty well every time. (Little double clutching to match speeds..)

Which is to say - I'm running the bike hard - so a lil rich seamed good to me.

Pilot on the other hand was crazy rich - cause I was 'sperimenting. Got a little carried away... happens.

This dance is showing me a second way to do tune . I like em both - and I appreciate the hell outa everything u guys have/r teaching me.

Oh. And WDC. First - I am doing tHis on the back of ur custom shim. Thanks. Old clutch would be shrapnel by now...

On plug leanness:
I think my plug is same as when Swiss posted. It's barely got any miles on it - so it looks so clean u would think I was operating on solar. It's just early.
But it's starting to show some chocolate milk at tip of insulator (ok. Ok. Dark chocolate milk perhaps) and there is at least a hint of the gray o ring Ginch showed on the perfect plug a few posts above.

Can anyone confirm:
How do u deal with the two sides of the plug issue - do u just read the side facing piston? Opposite?

Is that gray ring the start of something legit? ( when we move to new cyl - I'll do proper length wot run)

Thanks to everyone for taking a swing. Super helpful.

-CM

Hahahah!
Was typing my diatribe when u posted.
Disaster was not exactly how I/others read the plug.
Don't doubt there is some ugliness.
Care to rip this one down for the crowd?

Even in CA I don't think they have surgeons that could fix this kind of ugly.The grey/black smoke ring is about the right size but should be brown. The not being able to put the box top on changes the jetting status from bad to disaster. Its all fixable, it's only a scooter but the reasons for this apart from the wrong atomiser I suspect are many. Too much timing and not enough compression are likely. That ancient ashtray of a head is another. This is despite what we might find when you see your rotary pad condition and "inlet tuning" from the inside. Don't worry it will all be fine in the end. Get yourself a few pints of warm brown beer and take your mind off it for a while.

Looking forward to the next round.
Also, to the tuning.
(That's a beer joke).
Thanks to all for weighing in.

*funny

there is a lot more going on here than the sidecar thanks Charlie

I dunno, Piaggio's engineers thought 22° timing was pretty conducive to the 3-port Sprint Veloce (points, 150cc).

22° is probably fine for charlieman's hack in its pre-Polini state. Jennings: "[U]nless you have changed your engine very considerably from the stock specifications you probably will find that maximum performance is obtained at a setting very near that recommended by the engine's manufacturer."

Hibbert - having fun!

So, since we are on the subject of timing, what's the outlook on this timing tool.

- i love the set it one time without repeatedly pulling fly wheel.

Has anyone used?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/EN/Products/84992100/Timing+Indicator+Kit+TSR+dig.aspx?_country=3A6304BB-CC81-4ED5-9F63-1FF45FE1ABFA&gpc_origin=shopping&gpc_feed_alias=de&gpc_pid=84992100&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk9niiuDa4wIVDbDtCh0Q7g9nEAQYAyABEgL17fD_BwE

I have seen it and thought about it but just bought a degree wheel so I figured I would save my money and not buy this.

BTW, SIP has their own version of this as well... much cheaper, but you do need to buy a specific degree wheel to mount this. or modify your existing degree wheel to mount it.
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/timing+indicator+sip+digital+_83002400

cm - cool gizmo. It only helps you make timing marks tho. You still have to pull the flywheel to adjust the timing.

Don't know if it's faster, easier, etc.. but the name alone is worth 100 bucks.

Nothing wrong with 22 degrees on a stock scooter made for it. The Sprints run very low compression and will barely go as fast as the cm22 indo tuned sidecar rig, without the sidecar.

I like the Kytronic boxes that fit on a CDI. They have a rotary switch and changing between curves is pretty easy.
I wonder what happened to that Kheper III box which was going to bluetooth and a phone app to change the timing?

Right - but only once. U pull flywheel, set timing, bolt fly wheel on. Finished. Assuming it's accurate - means u don't have to keep pulling wheel and shooting strobe - pulling wheel andjusting stator - shooting strobe again.

I think.

Swiss - saw that. Liked the price - but it's back to magnets and wheels. Liked how it appears with gizmo thingy I can also measure port timing. (Probably just a little intimidated cause I haven't done it with a wheel - but confidence half the battle).

Jack - I have a non variable BGM elec ignition kit on the shelf. Haven't opened cause I've not decided if I wanna have variable or not.

Believe it has a D.C. output on regulator - I could charge my battery with (I like). If I understand correctly- I can swap to a variable CDI in future if I want.

Are u talking about this one ?

https://www.kytronik.com/products/smart-booster2016-2

ooh la la Looks like the French guy finally made the v3. Formidable!

http://www.kheper-scooter.com/

I had 3 of the Kheper v2 ones. Kept breaking but were great as they were programmable. Must admit I am now on my second Kytronic (yeah, that one) now too, so some of it might be me.
When I break this one I think a v3 might be next.

If you have the BGM variable you should use it on the re-build. Everything will get more powerful. If the lights still work it will be a great success.

French variable electronics?
Next you will be suggesting some form of British Layland/ Lucas solution.
Even Ginch is reading this thinking: well that seems a little reckless.
Meanwhile - SoCal is shaking his head and wondering (reasonably) why I would bother to even change away from points which are working fine.
Swiss has documented the way it should be done, and explained it with precise detail,
and Safis is thinking I should be careful not to allow this to turn in to a whores fencepost (look it up).

Matt Gyver helped me identify my current "12 volt points stator".
Paper work that came with bike showed they had replaced coils with new Piagio ones. Looks like they wired them together on old 6V stator plate to create 12V. At issue tho - the way they have them wired - a voltage regulator doesn't tame the spikes. So it's gonna get replaced with an electronic ignition.

Want to charge my battery as I drive - have brakes and running lights on DC/LED - very pleased with that and want to just charge battery now with bike.
SIP offers two kits in their Vape for VBB - one variable - neither appear to be DC.
BGM model I have - unopened - seams to have DC charging capability - but is non-variable.

What is this BGM variable ignition of which you speak (for VBB size crank cone)?
Can I just plug in any variable CDI from SIP or Kytronics to this BGM - system to make it variable should I choose?

(editor's note - french system actually looks kinda cool).

about sums it up.

never heard of that french programmable cdi but I am interested. Although I am planning on a sip dc variable ignition so it doesn't make sense to buy this in addition to the sip. lots of cash! Maybe if/when the sip cdi dies i'd try that out.

You can convert the Sip vape to dc using their DC regulator - that's the only difference.

Ahh. Thanks Craig. Makes sense.
BTW - Psyched to follow the SS Minnow project.
Hanoi Jane was some remarkable work. I stand corrected. Also still requires a timing light.
Now that I actually understand what the tool is...
Do like the apparent accuracy/simplicity of port timing and ignition mark.
Might give it a whirl!

In a pinch, that Buzzwangle could also be used as a roadside fix for a pickup truck's broken driveline U-joint.

This is too cool. Fits with my intended level of tuning... ordered.

Arghhh... shoulda checked. Actually cheaper on SIP than ordering direct or from Amazon. Dumb - I try to order direct from the manufacturer in support - usually the price is the same or less. Surprised that SIP are selling these significantly cheaper. Oh well...

No problem. You can order the next one from there when this one breaks.

I love the idea, but just about everyone who's had them have broken them. And they're not really cheap enough to be something you replace every eighteen months, although I see it hasn't put Jack off yet!

Buzzwangle?

Craig The Tool Hoarder (an unofficial designation of which he'd be proud, I'm sure) has a similar thing from SCK and used it to time Callum's Speedy. It certainly did seem to make things quite straightforward... definitely worth spending $11 on.
If I remember correctly it was attached to the flywheel with magnets rather than a tailshaft universal joint (with apologies to Whodatschrome).

iPhone comes with a level app that does basically the same thing... tape a magnet to the back and measure away

Return to State's this weekend.
Polini 177 cast Cyl, GS piston, & Malossi head at the ready for install.
This should definitely wipe out my drive shaft.
Looking for some input as I head in to it!

Basic plan:
- Plug and play with a bit of base and cyl head (if needed) gasket optimization. I have a whack of thicknesses.
- Take measures on port timings for future ref - and above optimization
- Take edges off cyl ports at openings
- Use existing known entity jetting stack for run in - made richer with larger main.
- Use existing ignition - yup, points and condenser.

Above gives me true read on plug and play/ is digestable.
Once broken in - move to jetting optimization and variable ignition set up.

Questions:
- Target range for squish? (assume I will go after that with base gasket choice)
- Timing - where do I want to be for my static system?
- Plug B7 short still?
- Ring gap target and adjustment means - how does one modify to get proper gap?
- How much do I jump my main from current slightly rich condition?
- Break in driving. How do you like to do it?
- Sh!t to watch out for - fave tips/tricks you use?

Current spec:
150 3 port
160/BE3/128
48-160 idle (moved back after plug showed too rich on idle).
Sip Rd. II exhaust
Polini venturi
Points - timing unknown
Sub 300 temps on hot day lugging at 4500 RPM in 4th.
~240/250 temps when WOT ~6K+ RPM

Thanks in advance!

ok I'll give it a shot

Squish - 1-1.5mm is good, but it may not be as simple as just swapping base gaskets. May need to shave some of the top of cylinder. You'll know better after bolting it all up and measuring.

Timing - Polini says 18°

Plug - probably B7HS but read the instructions that came with the head

Ring gap - GS recommends a minimum 0.036mm per 10mm of bore, so .0.226 minimum for a 63mm piston. Put the ring in the cylinder, square it up with the piston, and measure the gap with a feeler gauge. If it's too tight use a file to open the gap. A little wider is ok.

Break in driving? Everybody does it differently. I do maybe 10 heat cycles before winding it out. You're getting ahead yourself though...

SoCal: First time dealing with ring gap.
Good tips - straight forward - will take that approach with a bit of confidence now.

Struggled a bit last time when I had my stock cyl off to measure ports.
Arched tops and chamfered edges residing inside a narrow cylinder...
Tougher than you guys make it look.
Anyone that wants to throw in their tips or tricks on that one...

Will use Voodoo's trick for pulling jug - flipping engine mount bolt around and inserting from other side - 3/4 way.
If its too fiddly with side car hanging out there - will just drop the engine the rest of the way and throw on bench.

Plan is to post measures and hear what the gang says.
Will be disappointed if Jack doesn't propose a set of specs to optimize that include grinding.

Yes it's a bit tricky. But - if the exhaust curves up or arches as you put it, measure the highest point. I have calipers I cut the 'inner' points off to get in there. Ignore any radius you have on the port - you're not getting proper flow at that point - measure inside to where the port angle is established... this might be 2mm in? Depends a bit on the arrangement. Does that make sense?