Modern Vespa

GT6 - Thank you. Appreciate that. What's your fave brand/pair? Normally pretty warm here - but I like the skin I have on my hands, and wouldn't mind keeping it - welcome everyone's thoughts on that one. After first little outing where that was shot. Parked in garage. Took helmet off, stared at bike. Put helmet back on.
Rolled it out. Went again. Had a fat smile on my face all day. Thanks!

Driving - Pulls left, pushes right - but its not so bad - more a push than a shove.
Pulls remarkably well - love the sound of that motor winding up!
Brakes are useless. Downshifting is about the only real slowing power. Also - the dive (how can they be such crap breaks AND cause it to dive?) both have to be addressed.

So - next up: Breaks and front fork.
As luck would have it - in Germany next week for a little work, so... thought I might drop in on one of the suppliers there and see if I can sort out a set of solutions for that front end.

Pics to follow.

Oh - and WDC - chuckled - but no, I will not be driving around in fingerless gloves...

You see the darndest things at rallies...

Can I get some tech/opinions on following.

Have scoured internet for solutions to VBB brake master mount.
1. Cut brake mount and weld plate
2. Cap brake mount with master cyl. attached to cap
3. Replace brake mount/switch housing with master cyl - see below.

Would like to avoid weld option (1)- and plate seems large to me.
Considering making custom cap that will hold master. (2)
Option 3 is robust prefab found in Germany - but have concerns about ability to remove existing switch housing/brake mount.

Have done some reading, but have nothing firm regarding feasibility.

How rough is it gonna be to get this thing off my bike without scrapping head set and burning through paint/ mangling bike? Anyone successfully managed this? Best tips and tricks if you were gonna attempt this.

Current brakes are a liability - headed towards better anti dive and disc solution.

Thanks in advance for input.

CM


I like this solution for over all clean & compact design/fit.

At minimum will have to score line between existing headset and switch/brake mount.

Second view of master/switch housing in one.

There are man routes for adding a disc nowadays. The old tried and true method was to swap a 20mm fork from a smallframe PK125XL. It has less dive than the older style forks. A Grimica disc brake kit will bolt right up to it. Total cost for the conversion could be close to $1K (USD) depending upon which parts you use.

WDC - thanks.
I'm on that plan - PKXL fork.

But what I'm focused on for the moment is the brake master mount to VBB headset.

See pic of my headset and the master cyl.

Question: am I going to be able to remove the existing brake handle and light switch base - or is it going to be a total science project? Any non destructive tricks?

On 5 different scoots (P's, PK, T5), I've used a porta-band and cut the brake perch off the throttle tube, then welded my own plate on there. Yes you would have to repaint it. The other down side to that, is that the PX master cylinder can look a little bit unsightly on particular scooters. Another option that I'm not really a fan of, is to do the the semi-hydraulic brake conversion. I have that setup on my 10" Allstate 200 (it has a PKXL fork). Strangely enough, that scooter stops just as quickly (if not quicker) than most all of my fully-hydo brake Vespas.

This one looks pretty natural to me, a good argument for welding. However that integrated M/C is a nice idea, who is the manufacturer?

It's from MMW, Michael. Pricey though...

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/3331364/brake-master-cylinder-set-light-switch-housing-mmw-two-in-one-vespa-vb-vba-vbb-vnb3t-vnb4t-vnb5t-vnb6t-vgla-vglb-aluminum?number=3331364

Just for kicks, last summer I polished up a Grimica master cylinder. It was fairly easy to do. A polished MC might look better than a black in some instances?..player's choice, I'm just throwing out another idea.

Beau travail sur le vbb !!

WDC - tks! I haven't written off semi hydraulic as a phase I - as I could add hand brake master down the road. Think I feel about same as u on that one. Works but don't love. But...Would at min work better then current drum - which is hopeless. Thanks for tip on portable band saw as method.

Polished alum is my direction for keeping it less obtrusive. Looks like the finish may be "milled" on the one I'm looking at. Did u polish with some kinda wheel?


Safis- that's the one. Those are the guys. Good eye. I'm near Düsseldorf on wed. Plan to check it out and grab handful of other parts. Price is actually about the same when u add up and compare plate/welding/and master in alum finish - Vs this all in one - at least that's how I rationalized...

Ginch- nice shot of the VBB. About as clean as they get for install.
The polished alum and really compact design of all in one is what caught my attention. Agreed.

Looks like lack of added plate would make it a little tidier. Body color on barel portion/handlebar like the red one u posted might help even more. Tks.

Choc- sais vrais!

My only reservation - am I gonna be able to pull the existing part off the headset so I can press the new one on or is that gonna be a catastrophe of mangled aluminum.

(There is also another no weld option out there I've got my eye on - but nothing as tidy as this one so it's my first option)

Anyone experienced getting one of these off their bike, I would welcome any tricks of the trade.
. Looking for any help on that front I can find. Plan to ask the guys at MMW as well - see what they say.


Thanks all for feedback and Input! Carry on bag May not meet FAA weight restrictions...

If you hold up I'll let you know. Just about to mount that on my vbb...

But can't move for the boxes in here...

And beware too much stopping power on ur vbb with so much more weight... no fork tube like a px I think. A lot of stress through a frame designed for a 2 port 150 with low output and 8" wheels with drum brakes...

Pheasant Plucker - living up to your name outa the gate.

Like it!

Cool to see the master next to the headset - gives me better sense of scale. Thanks.

Looks like you have a few extra parts in that box & the existing brake mount was previously cut?

What's your plan of attack on pulling the existing one? Did they provide any direction from MMW?

nah - got it from scooter centre. nada instructions - but it is self-explanatory nonetheless.

the switch/brake lever mount was already broken. i've tried heating and hitting and wouldn't budge. gonna cut it off with the dremel i reckon.

just need the space and time.

Cool - cut and remove makes some sense. Suspect I am headed there as well... Fire up some pics when you do it and let us know how you press new one on if you get there first. I will do same. Thanks for weighing in!

pretty sure there's a screw to clamp the mmw onto the 25mm pipe from the headset. guessing it doesn't need pressing per se.

That makes all the difference in the world. Was considering having it machined a hair over and adding a few locking screws! HA! great if true.

BTW - this caused belly laugh:

alright... motivated me to get the job done.

fwiw i tried one last time to get it off with heat. put the headset in the freezer, then even filled the tube with ice (cork stopper) and hit it hard with the blow torch. all it got me was a puddle...

so cut it off... two decent cuts down both sides (deep but not to the inner pipe) and then hit it with a chisel. took like 10mins. longest step was replacing the cutting disc on the dremel.

and yeah... the mmw just slides on and is held by two grub screws. couldn't find the ones it came with (might be in a box somewhere...!) but had some lying on the workbench anyway. kinda wish it was held with something stronger. like a proper clamping system. threaded aluminum with those tiny little screws and the forces that might go through the lever... hmmm. will probably put some locating holes in the 25mm pipe it mounts onto to try and make it a little more solid. and damn the grabor switch looks cheap and tacky... want a cnc'd switch housing to match (with black anodised switches)!

finally - i did think about going down the welded master cylinder mount. but local vespa shop pointed out the caliper mount is pretty junky alloy, and welding to it might be problematic. you can see how porous and brittle it is in the pics. add to that the mmw comes with 20deg drop on the lever for a comfy grip. otherwise you would either have to angle the master cylinder mount if using the original piaggio mc, or use the sip mc which isn't much cheaper than the mmw.
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/brake+master+cylinder+sip+_56370000

plus... that is one sexy piece of cnc'd alum. how epic is it that people make this kind of glitch.

That looks fantastic PP! I would definitely pay the extra to go with that billet MC. The ergonomics of the disc braked PX's MC has always bothered me. It puts your wrist at an awkward angle. When ever I've welded my own bracket on the headset, i'll angle it down as much as possible, but the way the P and PK headsets are shaped, it can't be angle down very much further than how Piaggio has the ones on the disc braked PX's. The T5 is a little different...the headset is stamped steel with the aluminum brake perch pressed on (like on your VBB). So with the T5, a bracket can be welded on, then the aluminum brake perch can be hydraulically pressed off, rotate it however many degrees forward (down) you want, then pressed back on.

So if a guy who knows how to weld aluminum, paint, and has a Grimeca MC laying around in the shop, then I think it's a no brainer go the DIY brake MC weld project route. If you don't have all of those things at your disposal, then I think that the MMW is a no brainer since it would probably cost less in the long run.

It does look really good! My only gripe - a minor one - is that they didn't try to keep the curve on the top surface to integrate it better.

i'm hearing you - guessing machining curves isn't easy.

or so the ladies tell me.

PP
+1
That's awesome!
Thanks for guinee pigging that for the group.
Cuts look like great solution - I'm sure I'd end up trashing existing in attempt to remove in any event.
Like the small drilled hole idea too - I do that witha bit of thread lock on my door locks with similar set screw.

Finished looks is way cool.
Pick mine up on Wed.
Can't wait to take it on now.

WDC - great to have input on the weld solution from someone with the experience. Got whole picture now going in.

When you visit these businesses, take some photos if you can! Most of us here are never likely to have the luxury of seeing them in the flesh, it would be nice to see where all our hard-earned goes to die!

It's easy, just takes much more time which equals more money. Add 30-60 minutes to machine a curve at $150 an hour. So would you be willing to pay $75-$150 more for the part?

I agree - the machined flat top is a little slapdash on the master. Saves some cost perhaps - but could be better. Considering paint for that portion - to break up the large surface. Little concerned it will hold up to brake fluid drips when they occur. Guess we will find out. I'll do one better. These guys should have a discount for the Modernvespa crowd. Time and effort put in by all who contribute drives interest, and points enthusiasts in the right direction. Invaluable to these guys business.

Would be smart for them to offer discount opportunities to forum members - they can figure out how in such a way that it grows their business - at least that's my POV - which I plan to share when I visit.

No idea if they will see it the same - but come this far so no reason not to ask.

Before I pull the trigger on my parts list - anyone wanna weigh in on ~31MM single caliper vs radial 4 caliper given my set up? It's about $100 worth of price difference - but frankly - I am kinda partial to the look of the SIP own brand single caliper model - (lower cost of the two)

I know the book on the radial is that it is the bees knees - but not sure I am going to be able to feel the difference with my over all set up.

Thoughts?


Radial style - four piston

Single large piston

Radial (parts cost me around 450EUR). And yes, it makes a difference compared to the 2 pot caliper...
P221 front brake upgrade

I bought one of those SIP calipers years ago when they first came out. I was going to go on my T5 track bike, but brake fluid kept leaking out of it. That was something like 10 years ago, so I can't remember exactly where it was leaking from, but it now still sits on the upper shelf in my shop gathering dust. Maybe there's been improvements over the years?

As Safis implies, the radial (four piston) caliper only fits with the proper carrier/hub - "axle seating" in SIP-speak. Eg the Pinasco or AF versions - https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/axle+seating+pinasco+for_39061130
There is money to be saved on a caliper for that stud spacing via Aliexpress or similar, not sure where Safis got his from?

The SIP (two piston) caliper fits a standard Grimeca carrier/hub, so make sure you factor that in to your price comparisons.

As Michael already figured out, I got mine from Aliexpress. Price was 42EUR including shipping. Model code is adl14. As you can see in my thread, Adelin's caliper is the same as BGM's & Pinasco's, because Adelin supplies the calipers to them. The only thing you need to do on the Adelin, is to grind it a bit from the back, to clear the wheel hub. BGM's & Pinasco's come pre-machined...

now that is a trip! pity they don't make the axle seating too... that's where the $$$ goes. and pinasco seem to have changed their calipers... and they don't seem to sell their axle seat/mount separately.

i think you need to be very careful with that much stopping power on the front of a vbb with a side car. i have no personal experience but have been warned regarding a standard vbb minus the side car by those who do.

anyone else know the deal for real?

i wonder if scooter and service use modified px frames for this reason... they have a fork tube and are structurally more sound - since they had a 200cc and disc already.

Again from Adelin. You can find it on Aliexpress starting from 41EUR. Caliper code is ADL-1 (82mm)...

those are the Stage 6 calipers... the 'new' pinascos have the bleeder on the far side. now can you please quit popping my 'made in italy' bubble ffs.

Hahaha. You're correct about the ADL-1. Didn't notice the bleeder was at the front. I've seen some RPM calipers that look like Pinasco's...

Gracious - great insights/sourcing info. Thanks!

Suspect PK fork, good shock, and just about any disc - including two piston solution (thanks Ginch)- would be major upgrade.
That said, 4 piston radial would be the premium one. That will end up a game time decision.

Side car is slated to get its own brakes - using hydraulic balancing between it and back scooter wheel - so I think I will be okay with what ever set up I end up with at the front (not too little, not too much). Time will tell. May also play with tying it to front disc to see what performs better.

Will not have time to get up north to Scooter and Service - unfortunately. They have been excellent with recommendations tho - and I managed to get a few bits and bobs sent to my hotel room. Great guys - type you are happy to give some business to.

SIP has also rolled out the red carpet - for which I am grateful. Psyched to be able to see the parts before I buy.

Pesky job keeping me from being free before Thursday - but have to keep my priorities straight - which is to say, I plan to skive off and focus on Scooter all day Thursday.

Thanks for dissertation on options. Much appreciated.

CM

The RPMs look identical to the ADL-1 (therefore S6R/T).

But think I've found the 'new' Pinascos... AKcnd's.

FFS... this shows what the brand is worth...

I wonder if there are suitable 200mm x 4mm floating discs and axle mounts hiding on there too. Haven't found any yet... but then with AliExpress it is all about the right search term.