Modern Vespa

I know where I'm going to recruit from the next time the company I work with needs help sourcing.

@pheasant plucker: I mean this one...

could probably mount one of these with some work. esp if you put a quick action throttle on.... opens up a whole new can of bodgery.

totally... didn't spot that. they must just swap designs. or maybe Adelin, RPM, AKcnd, Stage 6, BGM and Piansco are all the same person. bastard(s).

Beedspeed sells this adaptor for 20lbs. (US $26).
(chrome part attached to master/brake)
It's a no weld, but you have to cut the stock break mount.
It was my second option behind one piece master and switch box.
Allows wide range of master cyl/ options to be mounted - if speed throttle wasn't your thing.

If honest - the VBB solutions for brake mount are a little uneven. I was surprised that all of the vendors did not have a grade AAA solution that was turn key. Semi hydraulic is an improvement - but if you are dropping the coin to put discs on your vintage Vespa... a great master with viable mounting solution would seem like a std - and they offer every other component. Perhaps its just time.

On the other hand - the volume/quality of cool upgrades available is pretty remarkable. Note: see PP's box pile...


Pretty slick solution

you guys do realise "PP" is internet speak for penis right? haha! i'll claim it.

and the state of my scoot meant $$$ had to be spent any which way. could either restore or customise... the $ to restore would probably be as much or more - and would end up with an 8" drum brake 6v 2 port 150. figured might as well go for broke (pun intended).

Pre game - see pic.
No synthetic lubricants here.
Good stuff.

Munich.
SIP. is about 45 min outside of town.
Online call center not in same place as parts & service - but customer service gal meeting me there in AM to translate my horrific German/ and mediocre Vespa speak into some kinda plan.
Should be fun.

BTW - Plucker - I'm pretty sure that's a different forum...

Master cylinder ala Plucker's killer tutorial was supposed to arrive at hotel by check-in today. Shipping snafus nixed that, but hats off to scooter center for above and beyond effort to right the ship and get it here for tomorrow- we will c...

Got interesting opinion from SC on PK fork. Unsolicited - but hey - everyone has their POV.

Guy there prefers to run VBBs with uncut PK. Didn't elaborate on why.

Others are on the modified fork wagon. Will prod SIP tomorrow to get their $.02.

Any thoughts on that one going in?

steering geometry, rake, angle, et al

i have a former vbb race bike that had a PK fork in it and it'd been wrecked hard coming and going. i've also ridden one and, uh, it wasn't really my cup of tea.

*clears throat*
Rob Hodge to the white courtesy phone. Rob Hodge to the white courtesy phone please.


-g

Uncut PK is going to look long and not quite right... a tiny bit chopper-ish. Partially nullifies the reason you like the VBB in the first place.
Also an uncut PK fork tends to leave a large gap between the mudguard mounting and the horncast - I believe the bottom steering column bearing is repositioned on the modified version to allow it to sit in a more 'natural' position.

I'm confused... I thought the standard conversion fork was an uncut PK (XL2) fork. The conversion being the steering stop mod.

Are you guys talking about PX forks?

Like this...

Found them... but not much cheaper anyway.

Ready[/img]

PX are shortened for the VBB conversion - as they are long and chopper like otherwise. Some PK's are shortened too - which lowers the front end and also brings the mud guard down.

SIP's version is based on a PK - but not shortened (except for the length at the top where the headset goes.)

Ginch/others with experiance - do you want to expand or correct above?

The desired trailing link angle (trailing link to fork angle) is about 100 degrees. which is largely determined by length of shock that is put on the fork. A std. PK fork, with a short BGM shock (or any shock at about 195mm) will achieve the 100 degree angle. 195mm is the key.

I am going to try and tackle the high mud guard with a combination of tricks I've seen. Ginch did something similar on his - moving the top shock mount inwards. I have a GS150 mud guard as well - reproduction, but nice quality with no seam. I am going to try and get a reasonably compact front end - I'll post pics of how I tackle.


Just getting parts now.
Pics and story to follow.
CM

These guards exist which would possibly require less modification since they are clearly a lot wider. I personally think they look too wide... but they exist.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/3330898/fender-oem-quality-conversion-vespa-p-range-to-vbb/gs160-appearance-oiled-bare-metall?number=3330898

Well - that was a whole lotta fun.

Ever wonder where all your money is going?
This is your posting.

Arrived outside Munich to find honking big purpose built facility - two stories high - state of the art picking and distribution. Retail shop downstairs inclusive of restaurant and coffee shop - I recommend the pasta - and some cool music. Used wood/ retro feel. Engineering and customer service are upstairs - along with glass walled conference room and owners offices. Very cool.

Got a tour of facility - see pics - Classic bikes and shiny parts in every corner and every office.

Savvy to the fact I might get wooed, I was rock solid on what I was willing to spend going in - which is to say, I spent twice as much as budgeted... Hey - I am saving on shipping!

They gave me a few hours with a top technician and custom bike builder - (thanks Christof!)- to bounce ideas off of and define my "needs" (as I like to refer to my shopping list).

I'll detail any and all insights learned as I do my build. Customer service gal - Tina - was nothing short of terrific also. She led the tour and hooked me up with Christof. Generally - great people - and super lucky opportunity to shop for my stuff this way.

They have their own engineering - and I got a sneak peak of a new "axle seating" or caliper holder/back of hub part they will offer this summer - nice looking part. Its cool enough and unique enough that it will show up somewhere on MV by someone. Fun to get a sneak peak.

Oh - and on my tour, I got myself in front of the head of the sales - I was determined. Asked for some form of coupon or discount code for the crowd following along - for which he smiled and offered me a bag full of swag. Had to chuckle on that one - but can't complain! - really nice hat ! and very generous with his peoples time.

Thankful for the day and enjoyed immensely. If you wanna check out any of Christof's custom work - his FB page has some cool stuff on it. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100005712306530
He's done some nice stuff - and is creative with solutions.

See pics below of your hard earned investment - you've built a beautiful place and should be proud of your achievements!

Thanks to all for all help up to this point - as usual - neck deep and still learning how to swim...

CM


coffee shop/restaurant on left lower level. upstairs is huge glass conf room and sales offices. Retail is the lower floor - right side of sign.

retail shop to right. coffee shop to left

Classic and hot rodded scoots everywhere

Two stories of parts. State of the art picking and packing set up. They use iphone to route workers to pick orders from library of congress sized maze of shelves

sitting area outside owner's office - two buddies from school who started the place

Random bike in sales/eng offices. Gotta love the oriental rug with vespa look. Rethinking my home decor as I type.

crazy line of classics and customs in warehouse next to stock



Whodatschrome - this one has you written all over it



Upstairs customer service/eng. at end is glass conf room. Nice digs.

haha - swag bag nearly 1/2 same size as parts! great day - mostly defined by super people.

BTW - I think Ginch's above comments on the subtitles of what makes the "best" PK fork conversion is likely true/insightful. The moving of the lower column seat to refine the total fit (and the commensurate cut of length at the top fo the fork are the refined version). I am taking the SIP off the shelf (if there can be a custom off the shelf) version and let's see how that goes.

Same can be said for Mr. Plucker's view on mud guard - tho sip has a more refined/ no weld version. GS may look too wide - but I wanna have some ammo in tool belt when I go to fit it all. Hole in top of fender and/or flare for shock would not be a fit to my build - so would go wide before I flared. Have paint concept that might slightly offset also. We will see.

I have a shit ton of parts and am going to take a stab at it. Don't mind face planting - and happy to refine if it fails to meet the mark. GS guard and custom PK fork have a market value - so can likely sell and try again if not quiet there with first go - but psyched to have stuff in box to take a shot at this!

Let's see what we learn.

love the fact that you jumped into the deep end with both feet.

don't worry. we'll be here to throw you a life ring when ya start taking on water!

-g

eta: if you're still in munich, definitely go check out the lowenbrau brewery/beer hall. they have decent food and the patio is nice. it's also jaw-dropping how downright immense it is! there is also a really old tavern in old munich that serves edelweiss till noon that's in a bunker/cave off the square and is amazing!

Wow! (he says, living vicariously picture by picture)

I bought a converted PK fork for my smallframe. The lower end has been cut down, but they don't advertise that fact for whatever reason. I'm not 100% sure about the version they sell for the largeframe and whether that has the lower part cut, but it stands to reason that they do.

Btw they don't do it like S & S, cutting in half, plugging and re-welding. They remove the bottom bit - the part the swing arm rotates on - and clean it up. Then they cut back the leg a bit, re-insert the bottom bit and re-weld. So no extra metal or weight and it's almost indistinguishable from the real thing, except the welding on mine you could tell was not Piaggio.

This bottom leg shortening then of course requires a matching shorter shock. If the shock is too long the swing arm is too vertical and the scooter feels twitchy. A flatter angle gives a more stable feel.

Cutting off the bottom of the fork would be a very simple, quick, and straight forward route. I almost did that to my pink PK200 (i still might?). I did install a lower front shock (i didn't know i had one, and lucked out and found it in my shop). The lower Bitubo shock brought my front end down about a 1/2". I'm on the fence about lowering the fork, in order to get the trailing link back to factory designed specs. It wouldn't take long at all, but it's just another one of those things to do.

PX vs PK XL conversion (Scooter Centre) vs VBB (Sportique 150):











Last edited by pheasant plucker on Fri, 15 Mar 2019 05:41:58 +0000; edited 1 time

PK XL vs VBB:









Last edited by pheasant plucker on Fri, 15 Mar 2019 05:41:43 +0000; edited 1 time

PK XL Conversion Fork:

Wow - cool - great info. Tks!
Ok - I will shoot similar pics of the SIP solution and post - when back stateside.

It's hard to tell what the effect on the mud guard to horn cast gap will be - it looks like the SC version has the old stops hacked off - and the new ones put on - but that the bearing seating remains un-altered (too Ginch's point regarding potential gaping).

My first play will be to work the top of the shock inboard as much as possible. I bought an offset shock top plate - which I plan to spin around backwards if it will work - thus offsetting to the inside. Not sure how much space I will have before I hit the tire. Tech showed me trick to move it out at the bottom as well. Will document and share.

Zurich now - headed back to Munich - which goes right past... SIP. (Scooter and Service sent me a part I need to pick up before I head home). I was planning to try to duck head in if not too late - and grab a speedo - mine is bodge blue tint. I'll see if I can catch Christoph and get his $.02 using your pics. Great!

Phez- little tough to determine the lengths - probably due to my lack of familiarity. It should come down to axle center to bottom bearing mount. Are you able to tell approx difference (pk/VBB)?


Oh, and Greasy - headed into town shortly! Beer and brats on the menu. Tks!

(Back at Sip waiting on speedo to get picked. Tech guy not here this afternoon, but others being super helpful. Thought I'd fire up another random hot rod in offices. See below)

Pretty keen to find out if the Scooter Centre version is different to the SIP. I was under the impression they are the same item.

Forks are really difficult items to measure! And because the VBB trailing link is so different plus 8" wheels I can't tell what the effect of any differences are until I get it in the bike (and even then limited experience).

Also want to find out if the PK fork I have is shortened at the bottom end (like SIP claim/imply theirs are). Not obviously (to me). Scooter Centre have minimal info on their site.

More detail on the shock mounting would be awesome. I have the standard (for a pk fork) 4mm offset plate.

I wonder why S&S use PX forks. More options for their PX based super low series? Easier to source? Better handling (once heavily modified)?

Cheers for investigating this all at ground zero! Great timing as we seem to be heading in a similar direction... with no map. Well maybe some faded hand penned pirate treasure map with an elusive X somewhere...

Pheasant Plucker, you left out that we seem to have the same brick driveway...

Timing seems to be good - glad you jumped in.
Luckily - we have a keen sense of internets, and this killer crowd of advisors with actual non internet experience and willingness to share - though they might have just come to the race for the crashes. Either way - good by me.

I am just as curious about the difference - if any - between SC and SIP PK. Lucky to get this trip in - and make a few connections.

I would already have photographed SIP fork - along with a huge xmas morning stack of boxes strewn throughout my hotel room - but the master carton is wrapped with sealed straps and I am facing a fun negotiation with airline to start my day - though dealing with airline is one matter I am actually qualified for.

I've had a chance to get to know all three of the groups. SIP, SC, and S&S. Like em all.
Scooter and Service are artists. Head guy there - Wolly - is a top notch custom bike builder - everyone here knows him - honestly - a little unmatched. His approach with the PX is more artisan I suspect - but he will customize any fork to your needs. That is his gig. SIP has killer people and customer service. I was right next to them - so couldn't pass that up - and glad I didn't. Huge stock to boot.

Let's take a look at the SC forks vs the SIP ones as soon as I am back in US - and do the best we can to compare - everyone else following can chime in - and anyone finding this thread can get educated.

If you will hold until Sunday - I will do a run down on what I learned - with a few pics - and we can also compare notes on the PK forks we have - inclusive of some tricks I am going to attempt to keep existing mudguard. Just don't know yet how big an ask that is - we will see. Found a few cool custom components that might help with what we are trying to achieve. More to come...

The subtitles of the fit between the mudguard and horn cast, distance between mudguard and wheel, and bike height/trail link anlge, all work against each other. Like a triangle of solutions - choose any two corners.

Move the mud guard up to close the gap on horncast - expose the tire more. Go the other way - create a gap above the mud guard. Get both those right - your trailing link is too steep. There are trade offs with all solutions - you can't add travel, keep the same link angle, and the same bike height, and not have your shock poke through your fender. Something has to give.

Personally, I want to optimize for mud guard to horn cast/and wheel, and get the 100 degree trailing link. My suspicion - to be proved - is that I will have to cut the fork to shorten AND figure out a way to shorten the shock also. That shock length change is the key.

I can live without the full travel - hell - the VBB only had half of what this will have anyway (though it used up that travel every time I touched the front breaks...)

Anyway - that's my take - to be vetted. Let's see what my fork looks like compared to yours - and then do a run down for everyone.

Mate... I won't be doing nothing on the scooters anytime soon. My first job is to pick up the socket set I tripped over due to the mess in my workshop. I have a tiny converted shed for a workshop - enough for a single Vespa (almost). Currently has a whole bunch of other stuff/projects in there. Pretty time-poor lately. Viewing this build as stress-relief and time-out. So stressing about getting it done is most counter productive for me. Happy to enjoy the tinkering.

Your posting just got me inspired to at least investigate the MC and forks though. Slow forward progress... Procrastinating on cleaning and sorting the workshop.

And your brick driveway is likely clean! Mine... not so much atm ;P Arghhh

Safe travels. Good luck with the airline/customs etc...

Back in US. Found car in driveway this AM with flat...

Had to restock some house essentials - gave me a chance to stretch out the scoot a bit more. Good learning - and exposed some items I will need to address.

Feels like I am getting some movement, toe-in/out angle is changing on breaking and turns. Know that sensation is part of side car phenomenon, but suspect its being exacerbated by play in connection between scoot and car. Was able to re-create when sitting still. Gonna have to sort out how to improve.

Plan is to tweak set up and keep riding (ok- ok - yes, excuse to ride rather than tear down - I am totally addicted).

Gonna get a few of my new parts sprayed the right color - hard to believe I am calling this orange the right color - but its kinda growing on me... and while they are being painted, I should probably ride some more - you know - for research - like everyone told me.

Did manage to unpack box - or what United left of it. Arrived on conveyor looking like they dragged it behind the plane on a tether from Germany. WTF. Fork was poking out of side - which was remarkable given the extra packing it was wrapped in - but appeared undamaged and still had gobs of bubble wrap protecting.

Pheasant Plucker - looks like you had it right. Pics below of the fork. All details appear to match your SC version. If you look carefully, the casting marks are even the same - these are out of the same mold. Plan to dry assemble fork off of bike to sort out in-boarding of shock and geometry - and ride ride ride.

Damn this thing is fun.


essentials...

15" almost dead on from lower race to center of drag link. Casting marks at lower race appear identical to SC model

Inches are for wheels and wheels only! You gotta play metric now...

I hope you aren't using your imperial socket set...

Sorry... just finding this satisfying because archery kit is all imperial (being very US dominated). I've given up and had to learn to judge distance in yards. And trying to find certain bolts to customize is impossible here... like 7/16"-24??? Or something like that. Imperial hardware is being aggressively phased out here... so happy Vespa's are metric.

7/16-24? About as confusing as a cricket score I suppose.
Or is that 124 for 5. Seriously - just decide what the score is and use one number please for each team.

Imperial sockets work fine - you just tap them a little with a hammer to get them on the bolt and use an extension to leverage them off.

JK - all my autos and my Euro based work done in metric. Imperial is like a tonal language - if you didn't grow up using it - you are never going to speak it fluently.

Speaking of metric, can you give me a measure of the tube length that extends out from the headset on both the clutch and throttle sides?

Haven't gotten into my headset yet - not sure if clutch side is adjustable in any way in length - but exposed tube seems a little short - and perhaps a little under sized in OD.

(anyone reading this with knowledge of answer is welcome to step in and stop the blind leading the blind).

Oh - and any chance those compound bows are hoyt/easton? Have some pretty rich history with them - making my crossbow comment that much dumber - blaming the wicked jet lag.


How far does the tube extend - is there any adjustment possible on length?

Don't ask me about cricket... personally can't stand the game and don't understand it either.

No Hoyts here... I'm a Mathews fanboy.

Tube length is 113mm both clutch and throttle side on mine. 114 seems a standard grip length I think.

You can tell if your tube diameter is too small - there will be play in the headset. If there is no play then it's all good. VBB tubes are listed as 22mm but they are really 21.8mm (which is some random French standard fwiw... good luck ever finding the exact tube size anywhere else). Getting the clutch caliper mount off is not a commonly done thing - they are pressed on. There is something different about yours - either the steel insert/shim is missing or it is simply been built differently. Mine both are complete cylinders - so no opening beneath the lever pivot point like yours. So maybe you could shift it on the tube - but then the gear pulley inside the headset would prevent this from being an option to get any extra length anyway.

When you are dealing with a bodge headset, that simple test may not apply. One I have had the part of the tube that touches the headset (maybe you'd call them "journals") welded all the way around and then ground back. And not nicely either. So when I bought a couple of new tubes they rattled around in there like a rattly thing. I hung on it trying to think of a way to fix it. Recently I bought some LML nylon inserts and bored the 'journals' oversize. I haven't fitted it yet but feels pretty good.

Tks for the quick measure. Helpful. Mine are the correct dia. Length on the clutch side is about 9mm short. Curious... To date, the work I've seen done has been very solid. The weld with crappy grind sounds more like something i would do...
Mine was early '62 - they were still doing round tails for part of that year - so it's possible this was how it came from factory - but the part looks new to me. There are tell tale signs - the orange yellow hue of anti corrosion treatment of the tube for example. I suspect its an aftermarket OEM or Dan Motor variant - used to replace a broken or worn out one - though the length thing makes no sense unless it is adjustable - and it is simply misadjusted. It turns nicely, there is no play, and it doesn't have the feel of home made job. It will probably get more clear when I rip down my headset - we will see...

Thanks for the info and measures - nice to have some background going in. I'll keep an eye for any weird welding/grinding/homemade solutions - if in fact it is not just a different spec part.

Starting to appreciate the beauty of the split headset of later years...

Pics to follow...

The cast shifter piece is pressed on the tube but can be moved a few mm with some careful persuasion.

Check it out.

Handlebar tube

Awesome!
Much better understanding.
Tks!

Interesting read on the results of a blow to the end of a tube.

Take the headlight off and have a look what's going on inside.

The color (slightly yellow from zinc I assume) makes me think yours is an oem piece and probably legit diameter. But figure that out - the fitment into the headset is the rate limiting factor. If that has been modified then it's gonna get difficult... the system relies on the 'journal' (al a Ginch) in the headset having an internal diameter that matches the external diameter of the tube. Finding two piece of pipe that fit in this way is very difficult. Especially since you need the tube diameter to end up ~22mm for the clutch mount/grips to fit. Ginch has obviously solved this with a nylon insert from an LML - but would've thought the LML tubes were 24mm.

Easiest solution... hope your headset hasn't been damaged/modified and replace the tubes... actually quite cheap imo. And then you'll have 113mm for the grips instead of 90...

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/gearthrottle+tube+kit+4sp_60555400

Yes I forgot that the VBB uses thinner tubes than post-VBB. It was more of a comment about what to watch out for really.

Busy day - but found a bit of time to play.
Networked my way to local paint shop who know scoots/bikes.
Took parts over to have matched and sprayed so I can assemble front end - disc and hydraulics.
Gave me a 3-4 day est - but after a chat - told me he'd have them for me Fri so I could assemble at the weekend. Such good guys - No idea if they can paint.

Pheasant Plucker - I think you have the right call. Replacement is probably the cheapest solution for my tube. $25 for shifter tube side by itself - and now I will have a local guy with paint mixed in my color at the ready for the brake boss.

SoCalGuy - after reading your thread - understood set of potential issues better. In my case, there is no play - in and out of the headset - and it appears to be sitting flush inside at the cable connecting end (see pics). Its just weirdly short.

Noticed on Scooter West's site, they offer a "European Spec" that has that same (zinc?) coating as mine. Not sure if related - mine seems to be in solid shape - just length challenged.

Some pics below. Note:
1. One of the wires from the light is getting rubbed by the shifter tube. Caught in time - need to wire tie these out of the way and repair.
2. Not crazy about the wire routing on the throttle side as well. Every time its turned, it is acting like a saw on those wires - though admittedly - every so slightly. Where do you guys prefer to run that wire to avoid this in a VBB?
3. Have new SIP spedo (horrific new but blue faced speedo bike came with has to go). However - good lord all mighty - there are a lota cables coming off that SIP speedo - WhereTF do all those get placed? This is a VBB, not SUV. not much room in there.


Gear shift tube - see any concerns?

shift tube was rubbing the black wire - worn through cover - little shrink wrap should fix.

Good news - new harness. Bad news - ran headlight loom under throttle wire where it could get worn. Will reroute (SoCalGuy think my girl was blu medio !)

Gents - spent some time today doing dry fit of PK fork/shock/brake/mudguard.
Could greatly use some tech input please on hub related washer stack.

Background:
- A F parts "axle seating" or hub comes with two large thing flat washers. See pic.
- They are similar in size and thickness to the axle washer that goes on to the axle shaft. I suspect they are used to center the caliper. However - if I stack them in such a way that the caliper is perfect on center - the AF Parts hub has some movement in it.
Stack Option 1: (AF Parts hub fits snug and has no in out movement on the axle)
- Single one of the AF washers first Then washer with flat. Then cir clip. Then the second AF washer on top of the cir clip (to move the parts out and help center caliper). Using the second AF washer on top of cir clip might protect the green inner hub pice seen in pic? (Doesn't feel right)

Stack Option 2: Same as above only try and squeeze both AF washers under cir clip rather than only one

Stack Option 3: Both washers on top of cirlip. So it goes washer with flat, cir clip, two AF washers, then AF parts hub. This centers the caliper perfectly - but the A F hub has play now as the cir flat washer does not hold it tightly. This doesn't feel right either.

Would it be too much to ask for an explosion view offered by AF parts for their hub - rather than just putting two washers in?...

Additionally - was surprised to find interference between rotor and caliper - at the outside perimeter of the brake disc - where it is painted black - it hits the caliper. Yes - I used the spacers. My options are to grind the caliper - or use small washers as pictured below. Any thoughts on this?

PS - Ginch - if you see this - could you post a reply with your two posts on putting your disc/PK fork on - had trouble locating today. Thank you.

Much appreciated.

CM


had to add washers here (see pointer) to avoid interference. Anyone experienced this before?

A F hub with the washers it comes with - no instructions...

Washer stack option 1 (other options not shown) Pointer is pointing to the washer with flat for reference. Order of assembly starts with axle on right - and moves left in photo. This is followed by the hub itself being placed over all of this (see las

No interference once I spaced the caliper with two small washers - I could instead grind the caliper a little inside where the disc is hitting

This is placed on top of the stack shown above - as the last part that slips on the hub before the king nut and cotter pin set up