Modern Vespa

Hahaha.

It was rented (and an aerator) but the first thing I did was disassemble and sharpen all the plug tines. Thing was carving everything it hit.

Working in my secret lab.
There is some stainless steel, a tig welder, and a band saw involved.
More to follow.

Ok. Ok. I know what you're thinking.
Charlie man - where have you been?!
We missed you!

Well- perhaps I am half right...

And, I hear you:
What have you been doing?
Did you buy a 2002 or a 510?
Did you stop loving vespas?
Have you fallen in love?

To this, I want to say, man, you ask a lot of questions.
But in fairness, I have been somewhat absent.
So allow me to fill in the blanks.

A month ago, I sent the Allstate to be cremated - I mean sand blasted.
I heard mixed reviews on blasting - but I just couldn't face the rust.
While it was out - I received my fancy new exhaust system from Germany for the Orange Unicorn.
A stainless steel expanse of cake slice pieces assembled together like a snake with colorful welds.

Now at this point - you would think - Bob's your uncle!
New exhaust - new curvy Allstate project - awesome!
But then Swiss went and posted that damn show off your garage thread - and the bottom fell out.

The Orange unicorn has been suffering a clutch side oil leak.
Is there anything more miserable then working on a cooked gear dope soaked set of cases?
And I looked around at my garage - with boxes stacked on boxes, bikes stacked on bikes, racks stacked on bikes stacked on boxes - and I had to call a time out.

Instead of working on the scoot(s), I took everything out of my garage - and threw it in the driveway. I mean - everything.
I listed stuff on craigslist, I got new shelves, I threw stuff away - and sent stuff away. And I sorted through every box and reorganized the whole damn mess.
Neighbors - walked by tisking and tusking at the rats nest of stuff strewn about - though their eyes betrayed the longing desire hidden under their masks to do the same (I told myself).

And to keep myself entertained - I set up a welding station where I could practice my tig welding - as I worked.
Sort some boxes - take a break and weld some stuff together....
Rinse. Repeat.

And then today - with garage at 90% finished - for the first time in about 8 weeks - I worked in my mostly clean garage - on fixing that oil leak. I had space, I knew where my tools were, and even though it was a thankless job - I pulled the scoot apart and cleaned off 3mm of dirt and gear dope.
It was kinda a joy.

I also started fabricating a new intake manifold. Don't ask why - you have already asked enough questions - just look at the pictures and enjoy.

-CM

That's outstanding work, CM2!

My dad used to clean up his workspace prior to starting any project. He was a big radio controlled plane guy, both an amazing builder and pilot, and I never quite understood it at the time--I was always too impatient to get the project going.

It's amazing how much crap we accumulate in interstitial spaces, though, all of it having purpose for having been put there at the time, and garages are the worst for that, I think.

I still marvel at the volume of stuff we got rid of in my move from Chicago to Nashville. My best guesstimate is that it was a little over 30 cubic yards of "stuff." And we still got rid of a bunch more after we got here. And could still get rid of more even now, but it's been jammed in a basement where it can be safely ignored until the next move.

What kind of welder do you have?

I'm getting very close to jumping on that particular bandwagon, arguably should already be on it for the GL floorboards, but there's a part of me that's still just too impatient to get the project going.

Thanks CM.
The part is welded with TIG, and done with the autogenous method - which means you don't add filler rod and just melt the two parts together.
To use that method - your parts have to fit up super tight - so I took care to get it just right. Any gap and you will blow through.
I chose that because - well - I didnt have any stainless filler rod...

Anyhow:

Knowing what I now now - this is what I would say.
1. Start with a MIG machine.
2. Make sure it can run .23 wire - this will be helpful for thin sheet metal. .30 wire is good for just about everything else.
3. Skip flux core. I bought and used that - but its a mess of splatter. Pony up for a bottle of gas - you won't be sorry. Once you own the tank - gas is not very expensive.
4. Choose any of the starter machines. 110V is more than enough for sheet metal. 140 amps will let you weld the sidecar frame of your dreams.
5A. Get one that you can adjust the wire feed AND the heat with a restate - not a "tap" if you can avoid it. The Tap type have no fine adjustment, just click from setting to setting. IF you figure out how to weld - you will want fine adjustment. Miller/Hobart/Lincoln. But - check out prime weld. I bought their TIG - great price - really nice features - and killer customer support including welding tips. Not sure about their MIG. Maybe do a little online research on that.
5B. The big box stores sell the tap type adjustment. Steer clear. The welding stores sell basically the same model with restate type adjustment.
5C. Get a good auto dark helmet. Some have a grinder button.
6. Watch Weldingtipsandtricks.com. Jody. He is the best teacher on the internets.

How to weld stuff:

7. The sound you are looking for when you get it right with a MIG is like frying bacon. Wish someone had told me. Experiment with too much wire feed and too little and get used to that sound on some metal coupons from weldmetalsonline.com (super inexpensive for what you get - great for practice). Then when you have it set wrong - you will recognize the sound and adjust.
8. Short stick out of your wire. Get that welding head right down on top of your work - 3/8" away - and make bacon fry.
9. Clean your metal to shinny before you start. Flap disc. Then acetone. Then clean it again. I can't stress this enough. Clean metal welds so much nicer. Keep in mind - stuff on the back of the metal also pulls through - so paint and dirt have to be cleaned off that too if you want nice welds.
10. Gaps = burn through. use a piece of copper or brass bar to push down on your sheet metal so that the gap goes away before you weld - you will be stunned at the improved results.
11. When you weld thick and thin materials together - start your weld on the thick - and weave the wet puddle on to the thin - then back to the thick.

Above pretty much covers everything I know.
🙂
-CM

Pretty work man!!!

How about some before and after pics of the garage?

(Or ...should we check the garage thread?)

That's about as short as a side draft manifold can be. Welding looking good enough to sell them.
Be sure to do a before and after acceleration test when it's ready for fitting. Important to keep on the science.

Thanks!
Garage: Pope/Catholic. Bear/Woods.
There is a whole damn movie.
Coming soon.
🙂

Been... distracted myself. But good to see you back.

Indeed.
And good to be back. Might still be able to cheat a few mm off.
Carb has been happy enough at 40°+/- so that's my target.
Challenge is the front carb stud - have to be able to get a nut between the intake tube and the stud.
Rubber from connector also "fouls" that same stud if too close.
Could try some snaking - but the entire thing is only about 35MM long so more like a grub worm than a snake.
Will take a final look and shave any length I can.

Welding - has a ways to go - can still be catastrophic - but Im having my moments.

Oh - and Bridsnest - here is a little primer.
This my friend is my Dremel drawer.
what's that you say? A Dremel drawer?
Yes - one glorious drawer - with all my awls (see what I did there?).
Cant begin to explain the joy of not buying some accoutrement only to find weeks later I have already bought it.
Three times...

That was super-helpful, CM, especially https://Weldingtipsandtricks.com. That looks like a lot of what I need to get going, plus I found that the Nashville Makerspace is only a couple miles from me and offers beginning welding periodically, so between those two options, I'm probably set until I know enough to ask better questions.

That is awl inspiring stuff.
Can't wait to see more.

That Dremel drawer is GLORIOUS! I took in more oxygen just looking at it! Dang, I'm getting inspired.

Gotta get B-62 and Rocket back on the road first, then......the bomb goes off on the garage.....

Chuckle. Indeed. Ha - hope to provide a bit of inspiration.
More to come...

Been working on the intake.
Carefully fit and managed to take another 5mm off it.
Pic below of carb nestled.
Then went to weld it up - just had it tacked.
Unfortunately - ran out of luck - and talent.
Scorched a hole right through it.
Overheated the part as well.

Pictures of the good bad and ugly below - its a process...

Birdsnest - this one's for you.
Have been trying to weld up a damn intake manifold for two weeks.
As the race car joke goes - he ran out of track talent in turn 1.

Along the way, I have modified my bandsaw so it has a tooless adjustment on the angle it cuts. Its just a cheepo like the harbor freight ones - this one is Wenn, cause they are orange - but whada game changer.

I can adjust from 90 to 24 to 12 (my three cuts to make my intake come out at 40 degrees) in seconds and accurately. Makes cutting stuff fun and quick.
Which is good...
Cause I have cut about 12 manifolds.

I've gotten pretty good at welding the two tubes together. That's a butt weld - and most come out almost pretty.
But welding the tube to the base plate is a fillet weld - which you would think would be easy - but has been a bear.
Burned more holes than my aunt Marsha through the coffee table with her cigarette.

Kept playing around with my form and finally slayed the beast after many - many - bench tests.
Ironically - I used a set of butt welded tubes that were kinda a meh.
Oh well - will cut this one tomorrow and put the scoot back on the road.
Can always work on a fancy new version to keep practicing.
Nothing like an actual project to learn a skill.

With a little luck - maybe I can actually get the scoot back on the road tomorrow. Been ages since I rode. Have significantly upgraded the work shop - and brought my welding along a bit as well. Gearing up for my other build. Have all sorts in mind...

You're trying to fillet weld thick to thin, with the thick on the bottom. So your puddle needs to run uphill.

Try setting your parts up so the thick plate is at 90 degrees to the table, with the thin pipe supported and held in place arching down to the table.

Start your puddle in the thick at the top, just above the thin wall pipe, then walk it down round 90 degrees of the pipe. Autogenous is nice, but be ready to dab in the puddle now and then.

Then reset and rotate 90 degrees.

Because physics.

Craig - good stuff - and right on target.
Thanks.

Such a nice day here.
Managed to get scoot back on road after ~ 6 weeks.

Dry fit and adjusted the intake - making it 5mm shorter.
Fit is better than imagined - when the shock compresses - the carb traces the inner curved chassis bit above the motor - but doesn't strike or touch.

Motor is without question more air tight - which is why I tackled this in the first place.
Happily adjusted down one rod on my Smart Carb - back to where it should be.

So good to be back on scoot.
So out of practice.
So good to feel the pull and have to slide up on my seat.
Euphoric.

For a chuckle: https://youtu.be/PSJfCAVv9dw

Pictures!

Ned, Im jealous you got out on the scooter. Been so long over here due to the weather. BTW, noticed cause of the angle, but put a damn new tubeless rim and sporty new tire on that sidecar! The ratty old tire clashes with the rest of the bike now! Everything else looks and sounds performance modded.

Actually it looks like you might already have a tubeless rim on there.. but that whitewall looks out of place with the rest of it now.. that ain't your grandpa's sidecar rig anymore!

That thing is awesome now!

haha.
I'm cheap.
I had 3 of those tubeless white walls mounted on rims.
They are not very sticky - which is good - I want the bike's tires to be dominant.
As you have pointed out - they are however - ugly.
Perhaps I need to paint out the white.
🙂

How out of practice am I?
Weirdly my tach wasn't working.
I mean - it jumped round a lot - but something was way wrong.
Pulled cowl and found this:

Notice any difference with the short manifold?

How could you keep that in a box? It's a thing of beauty. Should be either on display or being ridden.

The tach reader is on your throttle cable instead of HT lead?

That pipe's so fat you'd run out of gas just riding around it!

Pheas', a man with an eye for detail.
Yup - wired my tach to my throttle cable.
Seriously - you cant make this stuff up.
Where is Rowdy when I need him (to remind me the time I asked about the ignition switch!)
I had to shut the bike off and regain my composure from laughing before moving it back to the spark plug. That was a moment.
Then I leaned the other way and double checked I had a cotter pin in the rear hub...

Put the pipe on - and its a WOW.
Totally reasonable down low torque - and then a whole bunch of lean over the handle bars.
Did about 10 miles - and not in the hills - but it was just plain fun.

It's a Pipe Design Daytona Gold Line, double wall. So far - nothing but goodness to report. It is - lets just say - a bit louder than a box... Not when you are riding - but at lower RPM and idle.
Any 4 stroking at all - and everyone knows...
It idles super smooth tho - perfectly happy down at 1000 RPM if you want it there - maybe lower.
Really impressed.

Jack - the carb set up was spectacular out of the gate.
Scoot ran so well - and peppy as hell.
Down side - it just ran out of revs at ~7K with the box on it.
No specific data - that pipe was calling my name like crack.

I'll get some dyno runs in - if I can remember how to do it.
No question the pipe comes on stronger - at about same place as the Polini box - but once in - there is a steeper curve and a fat overrun now
Gonna be interesting to see what top speed is on my speed run.
Suddenly a box seems like a limiter.

that pipe is...... beyond.... a ..work...of ....art. jeez!

I'm happy to hear the prelim reports of the power. Looking forward to a full speed report. I like em loud, so thats good for me Nice work all across the board!

Hopefully you live in flatland. Cause that thing would be dented to all hell and scraped up in my neck of the woods in a matter of minutes!

It is beautiful though! Kinda want one! Been looking at their pipes for smallframes earlier tonight.

Lets see those dynos...

Thanks gents!

Wondering if the cognoscenti could weigh in on something unrelated.
My clutch has some chatter to it that it never did.
Started about 6 months ago - just prior to trip.
Replaced the corks - Scooter Center was out of the metal discs.
But the metal "looked" fine to me when I did it.

It's a BGM supper strong.
I am using SAE 90 transmission oil from the hardware store.
Wonder if the is my issue?
What causes chatter off the line?

brass push bushing that contacts the pressure plate? Is it when you depress the lever only? or when just riding and not touching the clutch lever at all?

Just leaving the line - as I let off the clutch and it starts to engage - if I don't give it the beans - when the discs come together - it chatters some as it fully engages - then everything's fine.

Greetings:

Sounds like.disks warped out of True. Not surprising if this is a scooter running a hack.

Thanks Wheelman - much appreciated.

As noted - the chatter was there prior to replacement of the corks. I assume you are familiar with the Super Strong clutch - it uses the Honda cork discs. I didn't notice any warpage of the steel - but then - I failed to pay as close attention as I likely should have...

One vote for pull the clutch and rebuild properly!
Any other's wanna weigh in with similar experiences/ different points of view?

Could be warped plates... also check the brass bits. Make sure the bushing's on tight and not spinning, and the spacer isn't damaged.

GL5 gear oil supposedly corrodes yellow metals and technically isn't ideal for our clutches. I use good old Shell ND30. Getting harder to find in CA these days ... try Carquest Auto Parts.

I was recently able to find Non-Detergent 40w at Napa auto, in SoCal/OC.

Exhaust looks made to measure. Fits better than expected. Before sustained speed runs it will need a significant upjet, if not done already. Ignition timing may no longer be appropriate too. Now you have an actual exhaust, it's almost possible to feel the port timing do its stuff. Hitting the powerband is more addictive than crack. Would think lifting the front wheel on that rig would be exciting/insane/dumb.

Lots of valid comment but this kind of clutch judder is the fat steel thrust washer. Buy a pack of 10 and change it every time the clutch comes off.

How is the carb? Ive heard its difficult to jet for normal road riding use... Not had any experience of it besides the information and videos floating about the internet...

I'm interested to know what you think of this pipe in the hills and to see a dyno chart or three. I've contemplated a pipe for my p200 but any of the manufacturers I ask point me to a box for touring and wanting to keep a sustained 60 mph.

Thanks all. Nice to have the input.

Clutch: Ok - I know where to look when it comes off next. Don't think it is anything terminal - just annoying. Perhaps I will even try thrust washer prior to next motor drop - as it is a fairly easy one - though think pipe must be dropped. Guess I will learn to do that quickly...

Pipe fit: it really is good - but you should see the stainless steel bits I hacked off first... 🙂

Jetting and Carb:
Jack - I pulled the plug - but scoot had cooled and I had just run it lightly through the hood. Pic below - looks damp/rich - may be more of an indication of my clicker settings for idle.
I looked at the top of the piston and it looks pretty heavily washed still. Zero signs of pinging.
I will try the rod above and below where I have at WOT - to dial in that end - then either use the EK or EQ rod that allows me to settle in the idle end of the spectrum.

108 - Carb is expensive... but I love it. Very smooth - kinda fuel injection feel to it. Jetting is actually quite simple. I have developed my own version. See reference above to Jack. There is only one component to change out jetting - the "metering rod". This predetermines the richness slope. You might think it would be limiting - but frankly - the carb design seams to account pretty well for it. It is also pretty damn simple.

Smart Carb suggests that you base everything on idle setting - once its tuned in you are ready. However - I like to do both top and bottom. I find the metering rod that is dead on for loaded WOT - meaning at least 3rd gear pulls with a tool bag in the side car for a little added weight. I want my plug to go golden brown at this setting. Then, using what ever rod delivered my marshmallow brown - I turn the nob for the clicker to find the setting that knocks out any 4 stroking down low.

Generally this leaves me able to run on the highway into a headwind with throttle pinned at times - and worry only about staying upright rather than what temp my scoot is running at. I like to keep my fears to single variables.

The biggest challenge for jetting for me has been: I keep changing the motor specs (cylinders/pipes/boxes/intakes/etc.)

Looks awesome CM!

Think you need one of these - or a Snakehead.

So you've opened a beer and already burned through 6 pages of face book - nothing much better to do than thumb through the NSMV threads in search of some inspiration. Well - you've probably come to the wrong place - but on a positive note - "Jasmine 69" is not going to pop up when you close this window - so there is that.

How bout we talk about GSF dyno runs? I mean - I DO know how to show a gal a good time right?!

Got a few in today.
Could hardly remember how to decipher them - and got myself well down a rabbit hole reading back through the settings.
Along the way - discovered that I have probably been understating my actual HP.

Now that last statement is of course filled with 1 part self promotion and two parts humble brag - but since we all like power - I felt I could get y'all to come along on this adjustment - and it seamed kinda warranted. In short - I have been underestimating the drag coefficient of the tires on pavement - or Cd (not to be confused with that Prince record you once bought on a shiny plastic disc).

Additionally - and previously reported - I had my tire circurmfrence wrong from the start - it was only in August when I moved to 11" wheels that I realized I had misstated the tire size previously.

What does that all mean you ask?
Well - in simple terms - I'm giving my new readings a promotion - and before you guys start yelling at me - I am also giving my old readings a promotion too. (look under your seat! you get a promotion & you get a promotion & you get a promotion!)

So from this point forward - I will use the new set of settings as shown at the bottom. Enjoy! (Jasmine will be with you shortly).

Oh - and Christoher - to give you my perspective on your elusive 60MPH question - what RPM are you at when running at 60?

Nice CM2! The reports and graphs are still a foreign language to me.

BUT - the Anaconda that just ate a Javelina you strapped on to The Unicorn - BADASS!

Way better than Jasmine69

I had to find my old thread and notes, looks like 6000 rpm at 60mph. Your curves are moved to the right a bit on the graph but it looks like the pipe itself didn't move the curve just bumped it up 5-10% except for that dip around 4000 rpm.

Wow.


"It goes to 11"

I'm so bummed we missed riding with you when you came through TX. I'd love to see the unicorn in action. One day.