Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:06 pm

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1973
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1973
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:06 pm linkquote
All the work your doing to those "scrap cases" they might make a good set of reed valve cases for a 62mm stroker motor.
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:10 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:10 pm linkquote
Reed valve? He just fixed up the rotary pad!
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:34 pm

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1973
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1973
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:34 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
Reed valve? He just fixed up the rotary pad!
I hadn't seen the cleaned up rotary valve. Rotary it is, with 62 mm stroke with a touring cylinder.
Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:29 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:29 pm linkquote
Thanks guys!
Having some fun.
Will see where we get.

Practice bodge cases: total mess/ have not done the pad/ may do it as practice.
My bodge cases: total mess/ have not done the pad/ am trying to grow the courage.

The old bodge cases are allowing me a one time shot to learn each time before moving forward. Like the time I ran the surfacer down instead of up - and gouged the sealing face about 3 mm deep... The milling work you've seen is all on them - I have not done anything other than weld my cases.

The next move is to weld up the bodge cases for the inlet pad. It's a tricky weld. Likely to sag and deform from heat. Full of fuel soaked aluminum.
I have an idea on how to tackle - but I have to... make a tool to do it.
If it works on the bodge cases - I'll do it to mine.

Pictures at 11:00 (just not sure what day...)
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:56 pm

Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
 
Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:56 pm linkquote
What is this fuel-soaked aluminum you speak of? Is that a thing???

Heat sink FTW? Short bursts with cooling between? Electrically isolated ice bucket?

Is said tool some crazy refrigerant solution?

Good luck… looking forward to the results.
Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:23 am

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:23 am linkquote
You might want to look at pre heating the cases prior to welding. If the cases are heat soaked prior to welding, it all takes longer to cool down, and the chances of cracking are reduced.
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:27 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:27 am linkquote
pheasant plucker wrote:
What is this fuel-soaked aluminum you speak of? Is that a thing???

Heat sink FTW? Short bursts with cooling between? Electrically isolated ice bucket?

Is said tool some crazy refrigerant solution?

Good luck… looking forward to the results.
The aluminum is porous.
Cast aluminum is bad enough due to the impurity's - but cast aluminum cases are notorious.
You can just be welding along and hit a little spot of buried oil and it splatters out and makes a mess of everything including your torch.
Worst spots on my case are around intake and in the gear case.

Cooling solution - no liquid - just "chilling blocks" made of thick aluminum. See Craig's note about cooling too quickly. I will shoot some pics after I fab it up.

Craig - thanks. The cracking I was getting was after the cases were full on heat soaked hot - but I will use your suggestion when I go to repair.
It was likely a combo of issues:
- I was using 5356 welding rod. It is "stronger" than 4000 series - but probably more prone to cracking
- all I had was 1/16" rod. I couldn't feed it fast enough for the gap - so I had some concave areas
- I let it fish eye on one or two spots at the end.

That trio above was kiss of death for the corners.
I will grind it a bit, wash over it, perhaps even pre heat as you suggest, and then rework the ends to get plenty of filler rod in there and finish nicely. Suspect that will get rid of any cracking - we will see.

If I had it to do over again - I would probably have settled for 4000 series in that area.
I have some 1/8" rod that would have been perfect.
On the pad - I will probably go with the harder 5356 again though - as I want something that gives me a better machined durable surface when complete. Hope to get to the bodge cases this afternoon and give it a go.
Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:59 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:59 pm linkquote
Rotary Pad Repair

I'm in over my head.
It' sorta my way.
Tip toe out to where I can barely stand.
Waves starting to lift me off my feet each time.
Last one drug me out far enough I can't touch
Swim or drown time.

Decided I would weld up the bodge case inlet pad.
The bridge warped and (after some frustration...) I just blasted it and set it aside.
Then back today - grind and carefully refill.
Built up the section again - then off to the machine to reshape it.
Goal - cut a pad, then cut that away and test the added pad method.

There is a reason Joe and others are bonding a pad in.
All around - I've come to view the bonded or welded-in pad as the gold standard.
It's just better.
- you can have tougher aluminum (6160 T-6)
- Warpage of that area
- imperfections in the original casting or new weld.

Found some previous threads elsewhere on issues and ideas people had with welding the pads. Its doable - but I think I can just get a better tighter result with adding improved material rather than welding.


Like a marshmallow on fire


Rebuilt, and ready for machining


Bearing seat and pad cut on same centering of the mill - so they are concentric (to within my mill's current not so tight tolerance)


Happy with the bearing fit. Heated and pressed. You can see the issues with the pad - that would need touch up and re-boring if I were to go this route - but as noted - I don't plan to.


Hogged out - pad machined away. This would get the pad bonded & or welded to it. More precise.




Joe's got good company with other's who had similar ideas and concerns. This is the smart way to repair - though not sure I have the skill to pull it off. We will find out.

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:52 am

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:52 am linkquote
Having tried a weld repair and hit all those pitfalls you are now, I read Jerry's method and said
"Yep, that's much smarter, I'll do that next time."

If Jerry's method fails, you can try welding then milling. If you ruin the cases with failed welds, they won't be candidates for Jerry's nice clean method any more.
Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:50 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:50 am linkquote
For the sort of destructive experimentation you're doing, happy to donate my cracked LML cases. Just lemme know.
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:08 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:08 am linkquote
Kind offer CM - but I am close now to moving to mine.
Kinda shocked no one has YET pointed out that for the time and effort put in - I could have just bought some Malossi cases - which would undoubtedly be tru.
But I am on a learn to fish expedition with my mill and lathe.
Quote:
Having tried a weld repair and hit all those pitfalls you are now, I read Jerry's method and said
"Yep, that's much smarter, I'll do that next time."
Yup - agreed.
Took the time to make the prior post in effort to highlight two points.
1. It CAN and HAS been done - but it has some real down side and challenges, and may need repeated actions to complete.
2. Forget execution - The insert method offers superior end results.
- You get a T-6, 6061 pad - tougher than the cast case or weld fill materials.

In fact, I pondered some improvementsI may play with in future:
- A stainless steel insert would hold up much longer than aluminum. There is a lot of heat related shrinking that might or might not create issues - but it's something to ponder.
- Some kind of grub screw adjustment to a stainless plate - allowing you to dial in the clearance on a highly polished part.

Anyway - next up is to attempt the aluminum insert method. Paused mostly because I am considering the attachment method (bond only, weld only, or both) and if I want to pre or post machine the pad for clearance.
Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:17 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2496
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2496
Location: Florence, OR
Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:17 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Kinda shocked no one has YET pointed out that for the time and effort put in - I could have just bought some Malossi cases - which would undoubtedly be tru.
We're all thinking it! But where's the entertainment value in that?

What you're doing is very cool stuff.
Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:39 am

Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
 
Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:39 am linkquote
If peeps are using JB weld then really can't see why stainless wouldn't work - except possible galvanic corrosion. Surely creating something to adjust to 0.05 will be very difficult tho. Hard enough to do with a chuck and the hardware on that is massive in c.f.

If you can figure a bulletproof way to get the insert attached then surely you've won. The machining part of your process is looking dialed in. Bearing looks mint.

Wondered - what if you placed the case in a plaster mold (made a mold around the inlet part anyway). Could you then blast away and lay down material against that? Like casting the piece from one side. Potentially keep the inlet itself mostly intact/open because of the mold.

Failing all this, won't be long before we can just 3D print a whole bike it seems…

[/url]https://youtu.be/kz165f1g8-E[url][/url]
Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:51 pm

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1973
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1973
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:51 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Kind offer CM - but I am close now to moving to mine.
Kinda shocked no one has YET pointed out that for the time and effort put in - I could have just bought some Malossi cases - which would undoubtedly be tru.
But I am on a learn to fish expedition with my mill and lathe.


Yup - agreed.
Took the time to make the prior post in effort to highlight two points.
1. It CAN and HAS been done - but it has some real down side and challenges, and may need repeated actions to complete.
2. Forget execution - The insert method offers superior end results.
- You get a T-6, 6061 pad - tougher than the cast case or weld fill materials.

In fact, I pondered some improvementsI may play with in future:
- A stainless steel insert would hold up much longer than aluminum. There is a lot of heat related shrinking that might or might not create issues - but it's something to ponder.
- Some kind of grub screw adjustment to a stainless plate - allowing you to dial in the clearance on a highly polished part.

Anyway - next up is to attempt the aluminum insert method. Paused mostly because I am considering the attachment method (bond only, weld only, or both) and if I want to pre or post machine the pad for clearance.
What's the downside of post machining? Wouldn't you want to post machine to allow for some tolerance stack up? You could almost machine to size on size, assembly the two halves of the case and lap the two surfaces to size with a valve grinding compound.
Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:17 pm

Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
 
Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:17 pm linkquote
He's referring to machining the rotary pad itself rather than the case mating surfaces.
Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:53 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:53 pm linkquote
qascooter wrote:
We're all thinking it! But where's the entertainment value in that?

What you're doing is very cool stuff.
That was pretty much my take, too

If you change your mind on the cases, though, just lemme know.
Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:01 am

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:01 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Kinda shocked no one has YET pointed out that for the time and effort put in - I could have just bought some Malossi cases - which would undoubtedly be tru.

Ahem. I refer you to a FB Messenger chat, specifically on the 4th and 12th of April this year.
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:28 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:28 pm linkquote
Getting some joy from the chase.
At pub now- unwinding from a day of it.

I'm learning a lot.
Some successful steps taken.
I'm sure there will be missed opportunities - that I will only be able to harvest the next time.
But I am diving pretty deep/ trying to harvest as much as I can on this round.

So - how bout some pictures?


Blued everything up - looks like an alien murder scene.


First I cut the center hole - just enough to get it back to circular.


Then - with the same center set on the machine - I cut the case back to a hair over 100MM. Enquiring minds might notice there is some additional customization going on here...


Then I took a 4" aluminum tube (6061 T-6 aluminum) and lathed it down to basically a net fit with the case. I LOVE this lathe.


Did the same with some brass - and made these two rings. The Brass will be the bearing seat - and the aluminum will be cut in a section to provide the pad


The brass bearing seat is pressed in. I used Loctite 620, heated cases, and pressed it. The only way this will ever come out will be if I cut it... It's permanent. I intentionally left everything proud. I will machine it flush in the case.

Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:32 pm

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:32 pm linkquote
Great lookin work Bud
Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:13 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:13 pm linkquote
Awesome. Have the greatest confidence this will be entertaining. 199cc Malossi MHR, P200 sized inlet, real exhaust pipe, crank that goes round; wonder if it will do 80mph pulling the sidecar?

Any thoughts to inlet duration or a few steps too far ahead?
Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:56 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:56 am linkquote
Thanks for the good words.
Plenty that could still go sideways.
Next up on the risk list:
- Bronze seat cut to size for press fit 62mm bearing
- Inlet pad cut
- Re bore the cylinder skirt area
- Face the cases
- Face the cylinder deck
- Bore and tap for my three card monte stud re-config.

Speaking of which - and apropos of the duration question - that aluminum bump added at the tail of where the carb will sit - is in fact an additional mod.
It's there to give me a new mounting spot for my carb's rear stud - which I always found problematic.
The basic idea is - allow for a larger opening from the intake manifold over the inlet - with the IO side more exposed from the top where the carb sits.
A 40° angled intake manifold, cut on an angle, will now be able to sit right over the inlet and take advantage of its longer shape. Pics to follow to better explain.

The bottom line is - there is now significantly more material on the IO side of the inlet to port the cases - with no limitations due to fear of grinding through the cases or pesky studs in the flow path.
I could, in theory, get 185 duration with 135/50/=185.
The point is - its a blank canvas, with lots of meat - and a custom pad. I can bias the inlet duration wherever I like it.

Before tear down, my experience with the pipe was.
1. Wow.
2. Little too noisy for my every day riding to the pub and through the hood.
3. Bit peakier than I like for every day cruising.

In short - it felt like I had gotten to the point where I was squeezing all the juice (HP) out until the lemon was shriveled. The 64mm (~200CC) was intended to give me back some grunt.

My plan is to jet both the pipe and the box exhaust in - but run every day on the box.
Keep it more rideable.
The pipe can then be plug and play when I want some go fast for group ride where noise is a value - or longer haul/hwy running.

As for port timings - no idea - at least not yet. Will start to give this some thought when I get closer to being able to assemble and spin a crank
Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:41 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:41 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
I could, in theory, get 185 duration with 135/50/=185.
The point is - its a blank canvas, with lots of meat - and a custom pad. I can bias the inlet duration wherever I like it.
135 is a bit is a little late. 125 more like the target for this. ATDC is the more variable duration.
Quote:
Before tear down, my experience with the pipe was.
1. Wow.
2. Little too noisy for my every day riding to the pub and through the hood.
3. Bit peakier than I like for every day cruising.
There are other silencers. I have an S&S Newline silent one on my 221. Real quality part and not even as noisy as the carb. With double walled stainless it might even be CA friendly, if not for the blue smoke.
When the port timing is correctly adjusted for an expansion, a box exhaust is just disappointing, which might be why there are so many choices of box.
Quote:
As for port timings - no idea - at least not yet. Will start to give this some thought when I get closer to being able to assemble and spin a crank
You did buy the MHR or Sport? 57mm or 60? One impending port timing issue could be a pain if it's the MHR 57mm, is the transfer duration. Whats the maximum negative PBT that you can get on the cylinder without the piston ring popping out the top?
Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:03 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:03 pm linkquote
Quote:
135 is a bit is a little late. 125 more like the target for this. ATDC is the more variable duration.
Well - at least I will have the options. Had to stop myself before I milled the entire carb pad down at a 40° reverse angle (of course) so I could mount the carb pointed to the rear - giving a view when I opened the throttle right up the skirt... of my cylinder that is.
Quote:
There are other silencers. I have an S&S Newline silent one on my 221. Real quality part and not even as noisy as the carb. With double walled stainless it might even be CA friendly, if not for the blue smoke.
When the port timing is correctly adjusted for an expansion, a box exhaust is just disappointing, which might be why there are so many choices of box.
They are still allowing blue smoke - for the time being. I'd consider a new silencer solution. The pipe turned the scoot from "oh - honey - look isn't that cool!" to "look honey - you go over there and tell him to cool it with that scoot right now".
Quote:
You did buy the MHR or Sport? One impending port timing issue that could be a pain if it's the MHR, is the transfer duration. Whats the maximum negative PBT that you can get on the cylinder without the piston ring popping out the top?
Yes.
Which is to say - I bought the Sport - then swapped it for the MHR (56mm stroke).
Someone suggested it.
Am I selling?
Editor's note: had to just look up if 56mm was really the right mm stroke for a stock vespa. Been a while...


'Bout this much

Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:15 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:15 pm linkquote
oh dear. We have a problem. 2.91mm just isn't enough. With the intended 60mm crank the 57mm MHR would have been perfectly acceptable, if not fantastic. With a 64mm crank it's at least 1mm short.
There is a 60mm MHR kit this would work. Maybe someone will swap? New kits have the removable stub for easier tuning.
Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:22 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:22 pm linkquote
wait - before I go source a water cooled motorcycle cylinder...
the crank is 62mm (not 64) and the rod is 110.
are we still likely in trouble?
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:02 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:02 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
wait - before I go source a water cooled motorcycle cylinder...
the crank is 62mm (not 64) and the rod is 110.
are we still likely in trouble?
If getting water cooled, then be sure it has a power valve. Programming that is a whole load of added fun.

However, surprising that it is, you didn't go to max size possible, 62mm is into the barely acceptable. The top of the bore liner rounds out to deck, so cant take the ring right to the top. If it will get to at least -2.50PBT it will work out fine.
62mm makes it 193cc, which will also help, as it has less crankcase compression than 64mm with 199cc.
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:06 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:06 pm linkquote
Quote:
If getting water cooled, then be sure it has a power valve. Programming that is a whole load of added fun.
Quote:
into the barely acceptable.
Something I have often been told.

What kind of port timings are in range with this?

In the mean time: curing



Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:48 am

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:48 am linkquote
Pfffft. Needs more clamps.
Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:14 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:14 pm linkquote
Quote:
Pfffft. Needs more clamps.
Ran out.

Got a few minutes on the mill.
The run out is a challenge - but I've sorted a trick for dialing it in.
Am able to hit a number to the .01mm.
That's good enough to build a tight motor.

Faced the bronze seat and the inner surface for the crank - then using that surface as my reference - faced the cases on that same plane - so the crank will be perpendicular to the face of the case - FINALY.

Cases were ALL over the place.
Had to take .25mm off - and I still have a dip in one area - but they are as close to don't-need-any-sealer flat, as I'm gonna make 'em.
Pondering a sealer only - no paper for them, or paper only.
Thoughts?

Had to recenter the work - but getting better at doing that to a super accurate level.
Once I did - I cut the bearing seat to size - or at least to A size.
This is a tough one.

I measured the best set of spare cases I have for bronze seat ID.
I took its smallest diameter - which was 61.98mm
The bearing is 62.00 mm
I've cut my seats to 61.96mm.
This may be too tight. I'm not sure.
On the other hand - I am fairly confident that when I heat the cases - I'll get about .08mm of ID growth. I will test it. If so - that would give me 62.04+ seat ID to fit my 62mm bearing in.

Yikes.

Jack - lemme know what my low end and high end range for port timings are.
Im still a little ways out from fitting the cylinder and taking some first measures.
Not opposed to selling and finding a replacement if need be.

Work demands my focus until the weekend - so this will go on hold for a few days - if I can bear it.


Machined down the bronze seat


Machined case faces are downright sharp. Cant wait to have two pristine mating surfaces.


Bearing seat to 61.96mm. Too much interference for a 62mm bearing?
Last cut here will be the pad.
Wish me luck.

Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:20 pm

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: California
 
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: California
Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:20 pm linkquote
Hell yes Charlie
Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:54 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:54 pm linkquote
Love It!

Since you're busy turning big pieces of metal into smaller pieces of metal, I went and did a little math for ya

Assuming that you're using Admiralty Brass, then to expand the circumference just over .25mm (from 61.96mm diameter to 62.04mm diameter), you're going to need to heat the cases 64 C above your working room temp. So if we assume you're working at 75 F (24 C), you need to get them to 88C, or 190 F. Call it 200 F so you have a little bit of wiggle room.

Which I believe is also the oil bath temp that the old Vespa workshop manuals called for the cases to be heated to before installing bearings. Go figure.
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:45 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:45 pm linkquote
Quote:
Hell yes Charlie
'preciate that.
chandlerman wrote:
Love It!

Since you're busy turning big pieces of metal into smaller pieces of metal, I went and did a little math for ya

Assuming that you're using Admiralty Brass, then to expand the circumference just over .25mm (from 61.96mm diameter to 62.04mm diameter), you're going to need to heat the cases 64 C above your working room temp. So if we assume you're working at 75 F (24 C), you need to get them to 88C, or 190 F. Call it 200 F so you have a little bit of wiggle room.

Which I believe is also the oil bath temp that the old Vespa workshop manuals called for the cases to be heated to before installing bearings. Go figure.
Chandlerman - that's awesome.
I love this forum.
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:43 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:43 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Cases were ALL over the place.
Had to take .25mm off - and I still have a dip in one area - but they are as close to don't-need-any-sealer flat, as I'm gonna make 'em.
Pondering a sealer only - no paper for them, or paper only.
Thoughts?
A decent gasket (like BGM) with no sealer at all. This is what I do when the surface is in good condition. Saves time when taking them apart.
Quote:
Jack - lemme know what my low end and high end range for port timings are.
Im still a little ways out from fitting the cylinder and taking some first measures.
Not opposed to selling and finding a replacement if need be.

Work demands my focus until the weekend - so this will go on hold for a few days - if I can bear it.
From the previous dimensions you gave; With a 62.00mm crank (exact stroke, which it won't be) and PBT at -2.50mm (you'll be lucky). Then 126.3/179.5/26.6 will be the timing on the virgin cylinder. The most important part is the 126.3 transfers. Some say its possible to go to 129 and still pull hard but I think for a sidecar rig that you want to be easier to ride, then 129 is too much. I would like it to be possible to get down to 124, which would allow some room to maneuver. Probably ending up at 126 anyway.

The 60mm MHR cylinder kit would have more room to move. Check out your 57mm first and see if it will make 126.

Obviously 179.5 exhaust port is no good for the expansion, some Dremel work required but that's nothing compared to the casing adventures.
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:59 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:59 pm linkquote
Quote:
From the previous dimensions you gave; With a 62.00mm crank (exact stroke, which it won't be) and PBT at -2.50mm (you'll be lucky). Then 126.3/179.5/26.6 will be the timing on the virgin cylinder. The most important part is the 126.3 transfers. Some say its possible to go to 129 and still pull hard but I think for a sidecar rig that you want to be easier to ride, then 129 is too much. I would like it to be possible to get down to 124, which would allow some room to maneuver. Probably ending up at 126 anyway.

The 60mm MHR cylinder kit would have more room to move. Check out your 57mm first and see if it will make 126.

Obviously 179.5 exhaust port is no good for the expansion, some Dremel work required but that's nothing compared to the casing adventures.
Very helpful.
Thanks.
Ok - will keep plowing ahead and get to the point where we set up the cylinder and check the initial timings.
Luckily I have 69 pages of notes I can reference...
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:28 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 5369
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 5369
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:28 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Very helpful.
Thanks.
Ok - will keep plowing ahead and get to the point where we set up the cylinder and check the initial timings.
Luckily I have 69 pages of notes I can reference...
That's where it gets hard - when the thread is so long it's hard to find anything in the earlier parts of it and the search function will just show you that it's in the thread . I had this problem on my P200 build thread. At least mine is only 40-something pages . Still better than having it spread in multiple threads, I think.
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:29 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:29 am linkquote
You can toggle your search from showing the thread to showing specific posts, but you need to have your query pretty dialed in for it to really be effective.
Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:09 am

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5419
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5419
Location: Hustletown, TX
Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:09 am linkquote
I did a rough menu/table of contents on my VSC thread in the first post.
Wasn't too tough as I started early. However... it would be a herculean task on a thread this large and this long at this point.
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:02 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 5369
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 5369
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:02 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
You can toggle your search from showing the thread to showing specific posts, but you need to have your query pretty dialed in for it to really be effective.
holy shit chandlerman, I've never seen that before
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:04 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:04 am linkquote
sdjohn wrote:
holy shit chandlerman, I've never seen that before
Whee! I helped make the forum a better place for a change!

For my follow-up, maybe I'll go back and add a table of contents to my GL Rebuild thread before it gets too much longer since I also meant to do that from the outset.
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:21 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:21 am linkquote
I think I could do mine in about six sections.
1. Hello, my name is (kinda) Charlieman22 and I have no idea what I'm doing: why do they call these two stroke?
2. First cylinder: polini
3. First case split and durations tuning
4. A leaner sidecar (liquor store trailer) and learning to weld
5. BGM tunes 1,2,3,4,5,6
6. Restoring mills and lathes to learn how to rework Vespa cases.
7. Stuffing big parts in a small engine.

Of course - then I have to decide on what 8 will be. A few on my mind:
-Building the perfect sidecar - from scratch.
- it's just a head (trust me - this one could be fun)
- putting a 221 on my small block

Birdsnest - did u just go back and make a listing on ur first post?
  DoubleGood Vespa Design  

All Content Copyright 2005-2021 by Modern Vespa. All Rights Reserved.

Modern Vespa is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com.

Shop on Amazon Smile with Modern Vespa

[ Time: 0.9276s ][ Queries: 7 (0.9034s) ][ Debug on ][ 209 ][ Thing One ]