Modern Vespa

Maybe I will start with an elec motor on the sidecar only!
Kidding - pls no yelling responses...

Ran it hard again tday. - only way to sort out the bugs really.
This time out on straightaways. Instructive.

There is definitely something up with the last 1/3 throttle.
At WOT - there is just no juice - and now that I have held it there for long stretches - and if you listen closely - its like their are tiny mini misses.

Ebeth - could be points are bouncing - agreed. Will replace as fairly cheap.
Ginch - bad condenser also - read some old Chandlerman stuff where he had that issue - same make and model.

That said - have suspicion it is fuel starvation issue.

What happens if I just drill out my fuel tap primary holes to a larger diameter?

I do love to drill stuff.

Spent last two days fabricating mounts for my steering damper - Pheas' I have no idea what the others were guessing when they thought YOU had a steering damper - are you holding out on me regarding a sidecar?

Welding getting better. Looked pretty good for flux core - not known for its beauty generally. Then, as I proudly photographed my work, I
realized I welded the wrong half of the collar on... seriously - I am mentally challenged.

Forced me to grind it off. The good news - the welds are crazy strong. Nothing like having to grind off your welds to figure out if they are any good or not.

Nice! What was there before and what's the purpose?

No... I'm not getting a sidecar! I want to go between cars! Filtering ftw.

Hence I have no idea what you are up to - but sure like the look of it.

Why could you not e-motor the side car. Even charge breaking probably possible!

E-motors mean computers which mean mods. I have no idea - but wouldn't surprise me if it were possible. Maybe some similar application?

What have you clamped to?

When I first put up the idea of vespa with side car - got a lot of responses here.
Went something like: pulls right on acceleration - left on breaking.
they were right - but it lacked some context.

Turns out - you can tune most of that push/pull out of the rig - using a degree or two of bike lean out, and a sprinkle of side car wheel toe-in. (any vespa sidecar readers who feel like they are fighting a pull when driving - post here and I will share what I learned on set-up to remove - so much nicer once tuned in).

The bike tracks smooth and straight - and the miserable feeling of pulling on the handlebars is gone.

Except... when I either brake hard, or come off the throttle quickly.

Example - shifting - then it pushes a bit left.

So if I powered the side car - every time I shifted gears - it would exacerbate the issue - pushing hard left into oncoming traffic - which I would find somewhat undesirable.

Combining elec with motor on synchronized system would be super tough - made tougher by shifting of the traditional gearbox. I'm sure someone smarter than me could probably make it work - but it would only take a split second difference of sync to make it a hand full.

That said - a P200 motor on this thing as you threw out - would be a joy. Had some suggestions early on to find a post 1985(?) donor for it's gearbox and clutch as well. If one came about reasonably - I would probably pull the trigger.

There would be some inherent synergies with an elec motor tho:
- Great low end torque (ideal for my set up).
- No pulsing of acceleration curve due to gear changes.
That would likely deliver a pretty smooth ride.
Add in the leaner set up and it could be a lota fun in the twisty turny's.

(As for the question on front damper - that I fab'ed the mounts for - it helps to kill some of that push due to dropping off throttle. It was on the original set up with drum - but new fork had no place to mount it - thus the fab'ed mounts)

Here is a short vid through local roads with my kid testing out his camera from the weekend. Damn these things are fun.

Aren't they?

Great vid. Area looks familiar. Woodland Hills? My old stomping grounds.

SoCalGuy:
- Yes they are - haven't gotten a thing done on the house in three months...


- Good eye. Encino - but that stretch of road is south of blvd and runs right to Woodland Hills.

[quote="charlieman22"] Here's the answer. Computerised. Get a "shell" - "motor servo controller".
Just happens that it's Italian also...

Ha - lemme c if I can just eradicate the random miss/backfire and SIP speed weirdness before I move on to programing a controller.

But give me time...

So - to allow me to drive/experience side car, have been working on taking the play out of all of the joints. Has made a huge difference. Lotta fun.

Two items I still needed to address short term were:
- High rev missing (high being a relative term for my 150...)
- WTF-were-you-thinking-when-you-made-that-move loud horn

Solution on missing issue, still to come.

Horn:

I'm partial to the two tone air horn that produces a lot of sound - Stebel seemed to be the gold std - and I liked the way it sounded on the internets.

At issue - my punky non battery elec. system is already taxed - no good for high current horn.

These horns work with a relay - the low power from your horn button closes the relay - with very little current.
The relay then bridges the higher current (from a battery or high output system) to the horn on a separate circuit.
This way - your stock switch never sees any high current.
My bike at idle produces enough power with my crappy elec. sys. to close the relay every time - but I need to power this hungry horn.

So my solution - given that I have a side car with a trunk - was to take an existing small 12v that was sitting in my garage and install it in said trunk, to drive the horn.

Using some quick math borrowed from Resistor (tks Res) the battery life should allow me to blow my horn for about 3.5 hours straight, on a full charge, before draining the battery. While I do like to honk my own horn - hey - its natural, nothing to be embarrassed about - that's a lotta honking.

Vid of horn here: (don't worry - it is just a horn blowing). Pics below.
Not shown - ran some pex through tunnel to serve as conduit - protect wires and make it easier to pull wires. That turned out pretty nice - recommend.

Nice work!

I want one of these... hard to get in NZ tho. But trunk space no issue for you anyway with the suspension.

https://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/small-case/ag-401/

You could just stick that P200 in ;P

Very clean install, good job. I was never a huge sidecar fan but gotta say this is changing my mind.

SoCal - Everyone needs a side car - you are just ahead of the game.

Pheas' - I mighta already ordered this: (see image below...) The issue is - they didn't import them here.
Just the 150's.
But let's just say - hypothetically of course - that a fellow brother from a distant land - say NZ for this example - was able to get his hands on a P200 at an agreeable price. Perhaps one with an EFL/Lusso clutch, known for its robustness and able to handle extra loads - for a bike that has - I don't know - some kind of side car hanging off it or something.

Anyhoo, how hard would it be to find and what might a person have to pay - hypothetically of course - to get his hands on one of these P200 motors you speak of?

Very sweet Charlieman - great job! I love the color. And thank you for the pex tubing tip!

Speaking of distant lands... https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankcase+malossi+vrone+for_57172300

qascoot - thanks! I shoulda shot pics of the pex - but at that point was knee deep just trying to get it done... Will say, it gave me some piece of mind about trashing my wires as they scrape the cross members inside the frame on pull through.


Ginch - Seriously - you're trouble. Isn't enough I am already plotting my leaner? BTW - this is my fave quote from description: Well... thank god for that.

Watching your vid I was surprised how well it actually goes.
I think it might be worth you doing an O tune workover of that 150 before going down the 200 route. An O tuned 150 will be the stronger engine.

Jack - intrigued.
It's not a bad little motor - though this thing would love to be more highly powered as you can imagine.

What are the basics of O tuning?

Jack - read up a bit. Get the gist. Have a look at my next post - some surprises found that might tie in with your observation on how well it goes.

Dove in to try and sort through motor symptoms:
- No oomph in last 1/2-1/3 throttle. Just seemed dead
- Runs like on rev limiter - some misses and won't wind up particularly under load.
- Bog as I accelerate from low RPM out of turns (2k) under load conditions

Not sure if fuel delivery or ignition related.
Maybe both.

On hunch - checked carb bolts - front one turned out to be barely snug.
Air leak!
Sprayed carb cleaner at base while idling to test - sure enough - bike would all but die.
Pulled carb - to replace gasket - and had some interesting findings.

Jack - good ear - based on first vid.
Appears there has been some work done.
See pics below.

Replaced carb, drove around block, re-torqued.
Shot this video for purposes of sound.
Bike has never - never - revved like this.
(shot with carb box top not on)

Bog under load gone as I come out of corners.
Rev's effortlessly with last 1/3 throttle having some meaning/oomph.
Sunny day. World view flipped to positive. Anything seemed possible.

Put carb box top back on.
Gave back some of the performance gains to the Vespa gods. Curious about why that might be.

Also - gasket is on with no sealant of any kind.
Seems soooo thin and prone to leak - hardly anything to compress.

Wondered what the experts thought - suggested. Welcome opinions on the newly found insights:
- Why do you think the high end rev out is not as willing with carb box top on (seems like some of that weird missing is there - just in micro form relative to what it was)
- What is best-practice for getting good seal between carb and box where gasket goes in your view? Made such a difference to get rid of prior air leak. Wonder if I got it all.
- Single screw holding carb box to motor case seems underwhelming means for sealing - what is best-practice to keep a good seal on that connection?
- Beyond the less than elegant grinding job on the case inlet - what do you make see in these pics? Anything I should look for?

Would love to max out what I have - but loath to split cases.
Is this a "leave well enough alone" moment in your view - or would you take some steps to optimize?
Interested to hear all perspectives.

Carb: Si 20
Main: 250
Primary: 130
Atomizer - see pic

Fun ain't it?

To answer some of your questions:

1. The carb draws air from inside the frame thru the rubber air bellows. Air enters the frame from the hole under the seat. Unless there's something's stuck in the bellows or blocking the hole, or the air filter's filthy, I can't think of a reason why the lid would make the scoot run worse.

2. The carb gasket may seem flimsy, but Piaggio's engineers knew exactly what they were doing. A gasket is all that's needed between the carb and the box. Don't put any sealant or goop there. Sometimes carbs can get warped from over tightening, in which case it can help to wetsand the bottom flat using a mirror or piece of glass. Lap it like you would lap a cylinder head.

3. Ditto the carb box to the case. The single screw and gasket is all you need. No sealant. Lil loctite on the screw doesn't hurt.

4. The grinding job doesn't look bad to me but could be letting air in. Hold the carb gasket up against the base and make sure it seals.

5. That plug in the carb box is to disable the autolube. If you look under the box you'll see a channel. Oil runs thru there and gets sucked up into the carb on oil injected scoots. You run premix, right?

Your main jet can't be a 250. Look again. 105? 112? The numbers are tiny and hard to read. A magnifying glass helps.

Idle jet should have 2 numbers... 48/130 maybe?

My advice is to clean the carb, make sure it's absolutely spotless, get new gaskets, check the float, replace the float needle. Don't mess with jets until you're positive your ignition's good and everything else is clean and buttoned down. Otherwise you'll just be running in circles.

So there you go. I'm sure others will chime in with more - and better - advice.

Oh - people are gonna chime in alright...

Hard belly laugh.
250 did seem a bit out of the ordinary...
(BTW - my brother refers to my foreign language speaking efforts as "brave".
It's not a compliment.)

In my defense - ik, ik, there is no defense - the main jet remained in the carb - only the air correction jet and atomizer came out. I used a magnifying glass and my phone so I could enlarge - 250! I'll let the guys know...

Picture below...
On closer inspection - after your response - saw that the main is still in the carb. How does one remove that if it doesn't come out with the rest of the assembly?

Other:
1. Bellows are clear - hole under seat open - filter is clean (though my video shot and testing all done with air filter on - just no top of air box in place). more on this below.
2. Resisted desire to add any goop this afternoon - read tomes from forums past - got everything clean and assembled as per spec. Seems to have sealed nicely after warm up and re-torque - just struggled to get my mind around such a thin important seal.
3. Didn't remove carb box - just snugged screw.
4. Kind words about my girl's grinding work. You are a gentleman.
5. I use premix. (thanks for explanation on plug).

Bike is running fantastically... with top cover off.
Using GPS went back out this afternoon.
Hit 40MPH cruz for first time.
Winding up so nicely through the gears.
It is clear I had an air leak.
Replacement of the carb gasket/re-troquing of carb bolts - was game changer.

I know the carb box top thing makes no sense.
But when I re-installed, some of the higher RPM stuff returned - though the bogging under load did not return.
I took it off again - and again it performed nicely.

I will re-install carb box cover and run hard tomorrow - with and without - before I tinker with tuning. Perhaps it was pure coincidence rather than causation.

On further inspection:
Idle jet is 40-130
Main is TBD - awaiting advice before I try and extract - prefer not to damage.

Scratch what I said about messing with jets. That 250 air corrector is... how to put this? ... freakishly huge. Didn't know they even made them that big. It's sucking some serious air. Now I'm really curious what the main is.

I assume you already tried to get the main out by turning the carb over and tapping it on the bench. It isn't screwed into anything and should just drop out. Wooden toothpick or shishkabob skewer jammed delicately in the hole might extract it.

Btw, how does the plug look? With that massive air corrector there's a good chance you're running lean. Post a pic.

Ha, brave is good. Socalwife has a much less flattering term for my foreign language skills.

Ok - so main jet out - thanks to a bit of education/input from Socal and Swiss.
Used textured Awl to just pull it out gently - without having to pull and flip carb.

Reading it is another thing all together.
Smaller than the fine print on iTunes.
Pic below shot through magnification.

Looks like I have:
Idle jet: 40-130
Main jet: 100 (best I can tell)
Air corrector: 250
Atomizer: BE 3 (#3 is all that's stamped) Interesting.
My top 1/2 throttle felt like it was empty/had no oomph.
I had an air leak at the carb.
You note my air corrector is more John Holmes than old guy from encino.
Both combined - ties to what I was feeling with throttle.
Maybe there is a little more get up and go still to be had from refining my jetting - so to speak. I like!


Next steps.
1. Run tests with air box cover on and off to see if high end throttle affected
2. Pop new plug in and run WOT test

That jetting is so old. What carb is on it now? Looks more spaco. They probably lifted those jets out the old one. Don't run that jetting wot for long, it will overheat.

Someone who half knew what they were doing has been in that inlet. I would have to split the engine to check. Will need a cruciform anyway. And a cosa clutch. Can do an o tune properly on the 150 while in there. Is all grinding so you'll like that. Hopefully it's not the original cylinder and already 3 port.

Warming up to idea of O tune - just has to make it faster then Pheas's cafe racer. :-)
Your as bad an influence as Ginch. Carb says "Spaco" on front - but saw online that Dell Orto and Spaco one in the same? In any event - its a SI 20/20 D according to receipt - and having handled it - appears new. Perfect. With my half, maybe I can make this thing whole.

Remember - this was a storage find - done in 2006/7 time frame, driven very little for 4-5 yrs - then stored - so what was new - was new in '06.
Receipt found in glovebox had all sorts of Italian on it - have a look below.
Piston/rod/bearings/carb/ etc. Frankly - have no reason to believe it's not legit based on what I've found.

There was no mention of porting - so I was kinda surprised when I took off the carb - but I can see crank is stock - and it's anyone's guess on porting, 2 or 3. There will be more surprises I'm sure. Hey - you have to play to your strengths. Ironicly - just ran it WOT to BarItalia about 2 miles from here to see if they had some air corrector jets I could pick up. Owner was out - so I ran it WOT all the way back. Then read your note... Perhaps I will hold off on a second trip until re-jetted...

Gonna do the spark plug WOT test (short...) and post.
Would like to adjust jetting - both to optimize what I have in short term and learn the art a little.

Gotta find source for jet/ jet kit.
Thanks for the input.

This looks like E4 to me...

Looking at this chart to see what it actually is.

Trippy, the size of holes don't match the chart. It looks like a BE2 but the holes on the larger portion are the same as the holes on the smaller or center portion. None on the chart are that way. Maybe they were drilled out...

Nice try but I'm not taking the bait! I'm staying stock for:
1/ reliability
2/ torque for 2-up (eventually)
3/ cost
4/ time
5/ reliability (did I mention that already?)

No matter what you, 221 or annoying else says! Hahaha.

Seriously tho - read jack221's tuning posts. Seems to be a lot of time fixing. I totally get the tuning buzz. But since I'm a novice rider (in that I have yet to ride a classic). My scooter will mainly ride 10min to work... hoping to do a little touring eventually. But not racing for realsies. I'm parking the idea or tuning for a day when I find myself needing more, and have time and $ to go there. Probably never in other words!

Qas - good eye!
Sleuthy.
Looking closer, if u flip my pic, it says E4 - I thought at first look it was an arrow or > sign with a boxy 3. See below flipped and zoomed.

But it still doesn't match the chart as u flag.
Perhaps that's why jack flagged as "old"?

If they drilled it, I want that press - it's factory perfect. Totally weird.

SoCal and Jack seemed to think I'm probably running lean - I'm inclined to think they're right. I'm so hungry to get my hands on a jet kit and tune in - matched by trepidation of jetting rabbit hole.

Most tuning I see focuses on main and primary. Sometimes Air corrector - but rarely atomizer/ air/main... yikes.

Pheas' just ensuring u were still there... ur a man on a mission with a vision. Enjoying that ride.

One thing I gotta keep a close eye on - flagged in pheas' commment: I need to keep low end torque.

Lighter fly wheel could work against my ease of getting off the line - so step 1 is to just optimize my current and ride, ride, ride.

To each their own, but I tend to agree with Mr. Plucker.

If it's your only engine, you want it to get you there and get you back. Torque is what you want. These engines were designed to make power down low and when you start dicking with the power band trying to turn them into high strung racehorses, reliability suffers. Yes it's fun as hell but there's a fine line...

Maybe the E4 was discontinued at some point? 250 is pretty odd, no idea where something like that would even come from. The main jet should be a very tight fit on the mixer tube.

Buy some jets. Muck about with them. Learn stuff. Doesn't work? Put it back to how it was.
Somewhere to start - 55/160 idle, 160 A/C, BE3, main to suit in the 95-105 range I would think, assuming the work carb to crankcase is the only modification (may not be).

You'll enjoy the O-tuning, just do it! But perhaps get another cylinder to do it on... if it doesn't work out put the old one back.
There will be plenty of people here with a reasonable 150 top end just gathering dust, ask here and I'm sure you'll get one for next to nothing. Then go to town on it! Not all tuning is aimed at peak revs, Jack is not going to lose you all your torque in a pile of cast iron on your bench.

There was another thread here with someone whose motor wouldn't run with the lid on... some time in the last 2 years. I can't recall who it was or if they solved the issue.

It's an existential dilemma.
And no one even mentioned a tire smoking 4K watt elec solution - that turns on every time - runs like the wind - but bores me to tears with its twist and go simplicity.

What's a man to do?
Answer: grab the scope camera and have a look see at the current situation.

Couple observations - some good - some not so good but better to know now.
1. Its a three port. They undersold the work - not evident in the records.
2. Shinny particles on top of the cylinder look like aluminum chips from grinding?

lets assume my set up is:
- 20/20 dell orto
- Some grinding on inlet
- Three port - but not O tuned
- Stock crank
- New case bearings/crank bearings/rod/piston/cyl...

Y'all wanna pontificate on what my jetting first set should be?
Ginch - does this change your POV on starting point?

Fri night.
Off to the pub.
Tks for all you guys!!!

Pics below

Looks pretty normal in there and in good nick.
That jetting is more or less the 'standard'... although Jack will probably have you go for a different idle.

This jetting is older than the charts. It's back from early 2 ports that didn't have high rpm. The carb is a new one then and they moved the old jets over. That's that mystery solved.

Well this explains why its faster than I was expecting. It's not a 2 port cylinder. Your piston shows overheating but nothing so bad. If it is already a full 3 port and the casing has been cut this is a good step forward. Even if the casing hasn't been cut for the third port but the gasket face is the wider type, then still good. We will soon see.

The cylinder is not original, so this is not going to be a historical conservation project.

O tuning for this will be all about increasing the torque and reduce gear changing. Reliability will be improved!

Jack - thanks. Agreed. Cool how the random comment or pic (vid) can create an unintended insight for the sharp eyed. See it all the time on this forum - like diving for pearls - every once in a while you find a gem - but you gotta dive...

Third port is likely real deal - cut case rather than blanked off with gasket. These guys had a grinder in hand and cases split - and my miss-jetted power is not so bad.

Have done some internet searching.
FMP has a few of his semi-intelligible videos on it. Making me semi-intelligent.
German PDF that looks like the bible - is unfortunately... in German...
Read some of your past comments as well - some mentioning of choices that might go to improved torque (vs what I assume is high RPM).
But haven't found an O tune bible.

- Can you give me highlights of key alterations you'd recommend for my application? (Just top level overview: i.e. carve piston, shape cyl ports, adjust inlet, clutch, other?)
- Or is there a link or two you consider good one?

Would like to tune what I have and avoid toasting it in the mean time.
Any interest in leading the half blind through a jetting upgrade to current?
Promise not to grind or weld any jets in place... well - at least before I think they are the right ones anyhow.

I seem to recall another member looking to eke out a little more power via some O tuning. Worth a read... #slipperyslope

Malossi 210 build thread - PWK30 tuning / bypass sorted!

Thanks brother - I hear ya - in fact, I found the fateful moment he probably made the the choice (see below)...

I am pondering it all - and wanna get an understanding of what you attack to optimize torque - and get better feel for full set of key steps.

What ever the prior builder did, its working, and there is more HP to be had (and cooler running) I suspect for top end as is - so a re-jet on current should be low risk - high potential benefit in present.

Expected to find lots of jet "kits" to allow experimentation - but seems west coast guys sell by the single part. Thus my desire to get a starting point and some insights on jetting strategy.

Is there anything worse than a Sat. with a clean garage, and time to play, and no access to the parts you want for your scoot? Is there an adjective or verb for this situation?!

You've got a great resource there at Bar Italia, and another across the Valley (well, waaay across the Valley) at Scooterspeed. Mark knows his stuff and stocks all the goodies.

Like Ginch suggested a pack o jets is essential. Maybe get the bigger set too. You never know where you'll end up.

http://scooter-speed.com/dellorto-vespa-si-main-jet-set-bgm-pro-90-112-jb-2599118/