Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:30 am

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5419
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5419
Location: Hustletown, TX
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:30 am linkquote
Quote:
I think I could do mine in about six sections.
1. Hello, my name is (kinda) Charlieman22 and I have no idea what I'm doing: why do they call these two stroke?
2. First cylinder: polini
3. First case split and durations tuning
4. A leaner sidecar (liquor store trailer) and learning to weld
5. BGM tunes 1,2,3,4,5,6
6. Restoring mills and lathes to learn how to rework Vespa cases.
7. Stuffing big parts in a small engine.

Of course - then I have to decide on what 8 will be. A few on my mind:
-Building the perfect sidecar - from scratch.
- it's just a head (trust me - this one could be fun)
- putting a 221 on my small block

Birdsnest - did u just go back and make a listing on ur first post?
LOLZ!!!!

priceless.


(Yes. I just keep going back and editing the first post of the thread as needed.) A California 2-tone legend in TX (65 VSC Resto)
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:17 pm

Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
 
Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:17 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
I think I could do mine in about six sections.
1. Hello, my name is (kinda) Charlieman22 and I have no idea what I'm doing: why do they call these two stroke?
2. First cylinder: polini
3. First case split and durations tuning
4. A leaner sidecar (liquor store trailer) and learning to weld
5. BGM tunes 1,2,3,4,5,6
6. Restoring mills and lathes to learn how to rework Vespa cases.
7. Stuffing big parts in a small engine.

Of course - then I have to decide on what 8 will be. A few on my mind:
-Building the perfect sidecar - from scratch.
- it's just a head (trust me - this one could be fun)
- putting a 221 on my small block

Birdsnest - did u just go back and make a listing on ur first post?
You forgot forks, brakes, front guard.

All the bells and whistles.

Good luck indexing this thread now =) Might be almost as hard as fitting the front guard. Almost.
Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:05 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:05 am linkquote
Ha!
'Pheas - my brother in large wheel low profile stock front guards and hydraulic brakes!

Rather than index - I have a loose plan to add first line titles to key posts that kick off any given project.
E.g. "Set Inlet Timing", "Port Timings" or "Smart Carb"
So if anyone does a search - it might hit more easily.

I might have to liquidate my Vespa stuff if this thread ever disappeared.
It holds all my data!

Inlet pad cutting attempt is Saturday.
See how that goes...
Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:51 am

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5419
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5419
Location: Hustletown, TX
Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:51 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Inlet pad cutting attempt is Saturday.
See how that goes...
We will need a live stream please.
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:27 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:27 am linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
We will need a live stream please.
+1 !
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:46 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 5369
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 5369
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:46 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
I might have to liquidate my Vespa stuff if this thread ever disappeared.
It holds all my data!
I know that feeling, I used to take very good notes in a notebook but I've moved to using the thread as my documentation.
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 am linkquote
sdjohn wrote:
I know that feeling, I used to take very good notes in a notebook but I've moved to using the thread as my documentation.
I figure that my thread is a step up from what I was doing before, which was using "Today, I..." as my build thread

I'm approaching crisis point of running out of whiteboard in my workshop for taking running notes, and that'll be a REAL problem.
Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:51 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2496
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2496
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:51 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
I might have to liquidate my Vespa stuff if this thread ever disappeared.
It holds all my data!
Looks like I'm not the only one that uses this forum for all my build notes.

My stuff feels very bland compared to the stuff you do CM2, but I document nonetheless.

This forum is invaluable in that regard, and also in everyone else's knowledge shared here. Y'all are much appreciated and this forum is priceless - Chris and I call it "The Brain Trust".
Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:19 am

Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
 
Molto Verboso
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 1353
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:19 am linkquote
Also, at one stage you were planning an electric Vespa…
Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:03 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:03 pm linkquote
Quote:
My stuff feels very bland compared to the stuff you do CM2, but I document nonetheless.
. If Jonny jumped off the roof, would you jump off the roof?
Quote:
Also, at one stage you were planning an electric Vespa…
what do you mean - "at one stage"? 🙂
Quote:
I'm approaching crisis point of running out of whiteboard in my workshop for taking running notes, and that'll be a REAL problem.
Acetone. I use it on everything.
Quote:
I know that feeling, I used to take very good notes in a notebook but I've moved to using the thread as my documentation.
I've taken to posting other peoples notebooks. See prior page.

Live stream? hahaha - I am already way out over my skis. No need to faceplant live.
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:20 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:20 pm linkquote
Managed to get back at it on Saturday.
I basically resigned myself to creeping up on the spec (target .05mm clearance to crank web).
This took a bunch of time - but allowed me to keep cutting until I could fit the crank in.
I had it at about .025mm - and decided I better put the bearing in to ensure that I was not getting a false read out of my dummy bearing.

To do that - I heated the cases nicely - and the bearing pressed in perfectly.
Was so pleased.
Then I went back to cutting and realized that the heat had failed the bonding agent (Loctite 620).
Such a shame - had worked so nicely.

In hindsight - perfectly foreseeable.
I was heating with a torch...
So I have to make a decision on my re-do of this.

Either try and control my heating temp using a more refined method,
or just weld in a pad - and then cut it.

The advantage of the latter is not having to worry about the bond failing due to my own bad behavior - or future weld repair.

So that's the plan. Set back but not ruined.


So close to perfect - hadn't realized that my bearing install had failed the left side of the pad at this point.


I stripped it back out, and cut another .1mm to clean up the glue. Thinking about best way to tackle for welding - then will recut that. will sleep better at night if I can make that work.

Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:59 am

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:59 am linkquote
I'd bond in a strip with some small predrilled holes, then puddle weld it into place.

On to the mill for finishing.

(I'm currently sans mill. It's slightly outside my normally permitted lockdown boundary, but kinda accessible if I'm travelling nearby for work . Sadly, it's got a reader issue (not telling how I know ))
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:26 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:26 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
To do that - I heated the cases nicely - and the bearing pressed in perfectly.
Was so pleased.
Then I went back to cutting and realized that the heat had failed the bonding agent (Loctite 620).
Such a shame - had worked so nicely.
I look at it as a case of it being better to find these bugs in the process and work them out on the practice/prototype cases than on the good ones.
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:50 am

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:50 am linkquote
Hang on - you went with 620?

The recipe calls for EA9460, a two part epoxy, with a 6 hour cure at 300 degrees (I'm assuming F not C), not just a single stage bearing retainer stuck in at room temp.

That's like using polyester resin on carbon fiber


I'm calling a flag on the play.



Last edited by Gt6MK3 on Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:18 pm; edited 3 times in total
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:53 am

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2575
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2575
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:53 am linkquote
Was just going to post the same…
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:47 am

Addicted
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 625
Location: Philadelphia
 
Addicted
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 625
Location: Philadelphia
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:47 am linkquote
qascooter wrote:
Looks like I'm not the only one that uses this forum for all my build notes.

My stuff feels very bland compared to the stuff you do CM2, but I document nonetheless.

This forum is invaluable in that regard, and also in everyone else's knowledge shared here. Y'all are much appreciated and this forum is priceless - Chris and I call it "The Brain Trust".
same. Without it I'd be more lost than I already am!
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:08 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6208
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6208
Location: So Cal
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:08 am linkquote
Yup. Better epoxy needed. That's all.
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:58 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:58 pm linkquote
Shocking oversight
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:00 pm

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2575
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2575
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:00 pm linkquote
Cure time, you can rush it with heat or wait…



Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:53 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:53 am linkquote
CM2, be sure you're wearing your GoPro when you tell your wife, "Honey, I'm going to be baking this clutch side case for the next eight hors like it was a pot roast."
Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:27 am

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
 
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, PX200(ish...), US 50 Special in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 441
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:27 am linkquote
You guys are so harsh!

Ned will be back in a couple of weeks*, once he's:

(a) Found a slightly dinged up but way cheap Autoclave somewhere in L.A or the surrounds
(b) Hired a big enough truck to pickup said autoclave
(c) Joined ModernAutoclaves.com NSM section to find out how to repair the slightly dinged autoclave
(d) Fixed and sold the one he started with, and found a much bigger, much harder to fix, but totally sexy autoclave that will be perfect for curing car door sized Loctite 39847 fixtures, as soon at it's working.

Shouldn't be long. *2 - 3 months tops.

(I needed an oven to pre heat some cases. Bought a used one on ebay for $10. Heated the cases. Welded. Threw out the oven. God I'm weird.).
Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:37 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:37 am linkquote
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:00 am

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2575
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2575
Location: Veria, Greece
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:00 am linkquote


Will this be enough??



Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:02 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:02 am linkquote
SaFiS wrote:


Will this be enough??
CM2 has now evolved from "will this fit in my garage?" to "will my garage fit in this?"
Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:00 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:00 pm linkquote
Hahahahahahaha. Ok. Ok.
However - reader's of this thread may have become aware with time, that I'm marching to the beat of my own guitar.
I've also been known to sing to the preacher.
And yes, I know, I didn't follow the recipe.
Which is to say - I heard you twice the first time.

Joe's recipe IS brilliant (also - if you check his FB page - he is clearly a frustratingly great guy). So no shade thrown here. It's just that I was trying to accomplish something a little different. I wanted higher heat resistance.

I did a bit of a deep dive before I decided on how I would tackle.
Here were some interesting findings.
- Max temp for EA9460 is 250°F
- Max temp for 620 is 450°F
- Shear EA9460 = 3500 PSI (warm)
- Shear 620 = 3500 PSI * (though the tests are different so may not be apples to apples).

So the 620 has some balls. I just managed to fail it.
EA9460's calling card is peel strength and elongation. Those go together - because when you pull on it - it tends to give rathe than break.
But if you take it over 250° - all bets are off.
(If I was going with two un-like materials and no future welding - it would be top choice).

When pressing in bearings - the cases need to get up to about 200° - so Joe's solution seems perfect for standard fitting.

However - I was trying to have a tighter than standard press fit for my bearings.
I see this as a performance upgrade to older cases - to hold the bearing better and address past ills.
Rightly or wrongly - I figured being able to heat higher was worth it.

CM1 did some math for me - thanks! - (but I had a different bearing material than the brass he used for calcs and it required more heat).
I'm also sloppy with my heating process - I use a torch. Don't have an oven (or a clave Safis. Hahahaha)
So I knew 250° was a no go.

Additionally - when I weld - the cases get WAY above 250F.
So I wanted something that would perform at high temp.
620 is by far the better choice for that - and is designed for holding two curved nesting parts together in oil and gas soaked environments.

Oh - and I ran my options by two different techs at Loctite before I chose - and both independently said the nature of my job (curved surfaces fitting together, oil and gas, HEAT) indicated 620

So - there was actually some madness to my method 🙂 - and had I not put the torch like a moron RIGHT on the pad area when I was heating for the bearings (I was really nervous about getting the expansion I would need to press the bearings in) it would have been fine.

But now that's all blood under the bridge - cause I've gone hybrid and welded a new pad in.
I've borrowed heavily from Joe Casula's much more elegant solution - but produced something that won't care if I ever take a torch to the cases in the future - or weld a crack - or what ever. It's permanent.

Few pics below.


I started with this


Then just kept building up everywhere. I figured I'd get some sag so this was to offset it.


Then I put it on the mill - and used the surfacer to match this area to the rest of the cases


Outcome was good - tho if honest - I should have done a final slow pass with higher rotation rate to get it full mirror. Next up: cut the pad back to .05mm gap with crank.

Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:56 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:56 pm linkquote
Ran out of time - and apparently didn't shoot a picture of the pad once cut - but it looks shiny and clean.
Pics to follow in upcoming post.
In the mean time...
This would be a P200, 62mm stroke, 110mm connecting rod, crank - in my VBB's original cases with new bearing seats and pad...

Crank appears to fit nicely - spin freely - and have proper clearance.
I managed to get .05 at the IO end and about .070 at the IC side.
I plan to close up the cases and see if I get any weird binding or tightening of the clearance before I proceed.
Overall pretty happy with the outcome.
Pad is pristine - look forward to showing it off.
-CM



Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:10 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:10 am linkquote
That's awesome! Keep the pictures and updates coming!
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:01 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6208
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6208
Location: So Cal
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:01 am linkquote
Six days and counting until the Tour D'California ...
Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:14 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:14 pm linkquote
Quote:
Six days and counting until the Tour D'California ...
Crime I missed that.
Wonder if I still know how to wheel the orange unicorn through the twists after all this time.

Work and projects continue to take their toll - but things are coming along.
Lemme recap status - and next steps - 'cause there is a looming question that needs to be considered regarding cylinder - and I need some NSMV insights.
I am going to post that in a second post.

First - the recap:
New rotary pad is welded in and cut to .05 clearance.
New bearing seat has been fabricated and pressed in.
Slot for wider P200 style crank is machined in the case.
Test fit the 62mm crank and it spins like butter - true. No scrubbing or touching.
Good.

Next up - musical chairs with my case studs to allow max intake flow - and facing off the cylinder to cases surface.

You may recall - that I tried a method with my welding where between passes I peened the welded material to make it more dense.
The idea was - this would help with machining.
In the pictures below - you can really see the difference in the areas I peened vs no peened.
The areas with voids will be fine.
They are minor - but have to say - it made a significant difference when I peened.

It's like doing drywall.
No one should be allowed to mud - who doesn't have to sand their own work.

So - on to the pics.


used small center drill to place hole for new stud. note - you can see the new intake pad all shinny and smooth. oooo. ahhhh.


I set the digital read out to zero on x and y. this allowed me to center my drill and tap. it also meant that when I bolted the other half on.


so I bolted the other half of the case on - and then used an end mill to create a flat where I would drill through. I had previously added some weld material to this spot knowing I would machine it flat.


With the holes drilled - I used the mill and a little center with a spring on it - to tap the hold perpendicular. What a pleasure it is not to guess if you are square as you start to turn the tap. This came out great.


A perfectly tapped hole.
(Don't say it)


Then - it was on to facing off the cylinder to cases surface.


Nice outcome. A few small voids, where I was too meek with my welding, but serviceable. Depending on next move - I may touch that up right on the mill - where I have the zero setting for depth - and then do a last cleanup.


This is the Malossi MHR pattern - plenty of meat for it now.

Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:39 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3458
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3458
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:39 pm linkquote
Congrats man. Impressive job and tackling something not many can do! Keep it up.
Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:03 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:03 pm linkquote
Ok - second of two.

So, before I tap the stud hole hole, I wanna stop and think (as many of you may now be doing yourselves).

Specifically - there was some discussion on whether my choice of cylinder is going to be a best fit for this project.
The issue (beyond power band match) is whether the piston PBT (sticking up above the cylinder) will be too great - exposing the ring.
This is due to choosing the 56mm kit (to allow packers under the cylinder to adjust the timing) but then shifting to a 62mm crank.

Adding to that - this project has educated me on some things I hadn't understood previously.
Let me start here: there is no such thing as a "big block" and a "small block" - though I have used the term myself to define a 150 motor vs a p200 motor.

The castings are the same.
Not a typo.
The case internals aren't larger.
The outside isn't different.

What is different is how they machined the castings.
So, for example - they machined the fly side bearing seat differently.
And... they also machined the cylinder skirt a bit larger and moved the studs.

So my question is - did they move the studS or did they move A STUD?
'Cause coincidentally - I have welded up the hole where one of my studs was.
And I was just about to tap that hole (just keeps giving), when I thought - hang on:

Two questions immediately come to mind:
1. Why don't I just put a Malossi 221 on this thing and configure my ports and stud locations accordingly - if I have to get a new cylinder anyway. How different IS the stud pattern? All 4 holes?
2. Why haven't I been more selective in the holes I've tapped in the past?

Feel free to wax philosophical in your responses.



Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:46 pm

Addicted
'66 Super 150
Joined: 11 Jul 2017
Posts: 860
Location: MN
 
Addicted
'66 Super 150
Joined: 11 Jul 2017
Posts: 860
Location: MN
Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:46 pm linkquote
Sometimes I like to read your thread just to totally humble myself and feel really ignorant....

Good work, CM! (WTH is he DOING?!?!?!?)

Ok, I did fully understand and enjoy your thread indexing post.

Carry on.....
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:24 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3044
Location: London UK
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:24 pm linkquote
Quite some download. Certainly going places most wouldn't dare. Great work on the old case. All machines being put to work.

Like the idea of making a 221 a 228. I think you'll be lucky to find any stud in the correct position to fit a 200 exhaust. Might have to move all 4.

I think the 177 (57mm) kit will work out. If you can get 126.x on the main transfers it will be ok. Have a measure and see how it looks.

Cut the inlet hole after the cylinder timing is decided.

Edit: There is another consideration; the 228 would be more powerful. These old ex bodge casings do not have retained crank bearings, allowing lateral (axial) crank movement. When pulling the clutch (CR80 heavily sprung) the crank moves out and with helical gears under load it moves in. When the VBB had no power it didn't matter. Might not be a great issue but worth some thought. Sure you don't need any surprises.

Edit2: A 228 let's say MHR, with real expansion exhaust, won't run full power on a rotary inlet. Reed conversion anyone?
Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:11 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4236
Location: Nashville
Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:11 am linkquote
That's some amazing work, CM2!

Did you touch up your voids and re-machine, or go with it as-is? (I can't see those voids affecting the seal, but I also know that OCD is a bitch)

Jack, thanks for the sidebar explanation of helical vs. straight-cut gears, too. It makes perfect sense, I'd just never thought about the "why" of it before.
Jack221 wrote:
Edit2: A 228 let's say MHR, with real expansion exhaust, won't run full power on a rotary inlet. Reed conversion anyone?
Let's take a moment to savor the irony of this fact popping up right now...

I'm not sure if it's a or a .
Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:16 am

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: California
 
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: California
Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:16 am linkquote
yummy
Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:09 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:09 am linkquote
Kimono32 wrote:
Ok, I did fully understand and enjoy your thread indexing post.
chuckled.
Quote:
That's some amazing work, CM2!
Did you touch up your voids and re-machine, or go with it as-is? (I can't see those voids affecting the seal, but I also know that OCD is a bitch)
I will likely touch up those spots today. Easy enough to do without taking off mill - so already level and ready for final pass if I do so. Agreed - some hondabond would easily seal - but might as well take it to mirror finish.
Quote:
Edit: There is another consideration; the 228 would be more powerful. These old ex bodge casings do not have retained crank bearings, allowing lateral (axial) crank movement.
Good points and perhaps more trouble than worth.
I thought about this and have considered using retaining compound on the build - on the bearing to seat and the crank to bearing. There would be no movement then of any kind - but would mean I would have to have high heat to extract either in the future.
Quote:
Edit2: A 228 let's say MHR, with real expansion exhaust, won't run full power on a rotary inlet. Reed conversion anyone?
There will be a second motor build. I probably should have made this one the reed - given how toasted it was - but it will instead be the optimized rotary. We will tackle some kind of Whole Hog build after this one so I have a spare on the shelf.
Quote:
Cut the inlet hole after the cylinder timing is decided.
Ok.
Plan currently is to cut narrow and extremely conservative initial inlet (120 degrees duration just down the center) so I have something to measure and work from when laying out inlet timing. Will stick to this - but keep it super conservative until we work out timing so plenty of room to move in all directions.
Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:37 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:37 am linkquote
hibbert wrote:
yummy
🙂
Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:32 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:32 pm linkquote
Bit more progress - and another few bullets dodged.

First of two posts.


This void was bugging me.


So I welded it up. I didn't want to peen the weld - because I had the cases perfectly square and perpendicular on the machine


Machined it back flat. A few pin holes remained - but surface is nice. You can see I blue inked the area the the piston skirt sits down in to - and took a first exceptionally light cut to fine tune centering.


I took tiny increments and kept fitting the cylinder. You can see how the hole is not round - due to my facing the case halves - that made the halves closer together and the hole oblong.


Anywhere you see blue - the skirt won't touch. I didn't want to take it any further because the fit of the cylinder was sweet - and this blue low spot was minor.


The front side is nearly perfect. such a pleasure to feel the cylinder slip in and sit so squarely on the machined surfaces.

Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:04 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2629
Location: california
Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:04 pm linkquote
Next up was the stud.
This really needed to be dead balls accurate.
Somewhere on page 18 or something (I never actually look - its a wild ass guess) Jack yelled at me about removing the studs. They were all looser than a hockey player's teeth anyway.
The front one was a disaster - not even a helicoil would fix - and Whodat told me about time certs.

So I time certed the hole - and had to move up to an 8mm stud.
It worked but was a pain in the ass.
Had to drill out every cylinder head on the front right.
Same with every shim...

Decided on a whim in the moment to try and weld it up and fix it.
It's a nightmare to weld into a hole - so I just cut the whole damn corner off.
Hindsight - I was out of my f'king mind.
Lucky this didn't crash the ship.

Enjoy below...


Here was the patient mid mastectomy back in... June (ouch. painful to type that).


Needed to mark the position of the new hole. So took an 8mm stud - I had plenty of extra... and turned it to a point on the lathe.


Now its a punch


Since the cylinder is designed for 7mm studs, the 8mm "punch" fit more snuggly to help me center.


Did a nice job giving me a center


Drilled and tapped


A sight for sore eyes.


Cylinder slides right on - no bending or manipulating of studs required - the skirt sitting snuggly in cases. Super pleased with fit. This one could have been a disaster. We move forward - though more similar hurtles may appear.

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:02 am

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5419
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5419
Location: Hustletown, TX
Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:02 am linkquote
A thing of beauty.
Truly.
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