Modern Vespa

Morals and character dont change unless you let yourself become bitter.
Core values have not changed on me or my wife. What we enjoy has but we never were just like each other. From food to hobbies, music, and knowlage we are totally different. But that really does not affect the way someone treats you does it. A kind character will not cause you harm because you dont see things the way they do. That is a self seeking person.
Also be upfront. I told my wife on our first date. You had to be Christian, wanted to get married young, have children and take my last name.
Alot of people this is a deal breaker, that is fine. These are core things in my life and if you dont share that, there is no reason to keep dating them other than for "fun". I personally just found dating to be a means in finding a wife. I did not date for fun. It was to find someone to walk this life with. I was not going to waste time with a dead end relationship because of a difference in religion, life goals, or traditions.

Like I said not all will agree. Then you would not be the one I would marry and that is fine. There are alot of women who will not like my nonnegotiable areas. It would be best if we learn that off the bat.

Bwwww hahahahahhah.

Yay.

Someone I respect agrees with me.

Bill x

Again this is marriage based on the worng foundation. To get married because of a child and only that is a bad decision. But primal urges would tell you to kill others because of flash anger. Most wont do this because of consequence but when it comes to mating we dont care about risks. We tell ourselves we are not hurting anyone.
Again, anyone who was reckless in relationships I would not date. Sounds bad but, I found a good wife.

Worst part is, I was going to sit this thread out. But I have to agree this is more fun than riding. Expesally since it is 45f and windy here today.

I am curious to see the long term affects on relationships of the generation that grew up choosing partners from dating apps or web cam sites. It seems so easy to swipe through lists of people based on superficial statistics and images that it must be difficult to quit the habit.

Once again this is untrue - Morals and character don't change unless you let yourself become bitter.

I'm not bitter but my morals and character have changed over the years because I've evolved which is what you do when you age.

You learn and you grow by making making mistakes and this shapes you.

I think I figured myself out around the 50 mark and I'm so glad I waited until that age because now I know what I'm going to do until I'm dead.

This will sound patronising but stick it out.

How does anyone know that they have married a good one until they realise they havn't ?

Sure, you want to believe that you have made a wise choice but whose to know ? When the chips are down people really change and "The One" for you will turn from the most amazing thing in your life to your worst enemy.

Seen it happen too many times and I've seen the fall out it brings.

It's horrid.

Bill x

If you buy a car over the internet you get what you deserve.

I can speak of life from 50 experience. You have me there.


Oops I hit quote insted of edit. Or maybe I am narcissistic and love my own posts.

I'm all for knowing yourself, i.e. being older when getting married. I think some of the more profound changes in life can occur early, so getting settled helps.

When I was 18, had my first romance. Remember reflecting on my "adulthood." Living away from home, old enough to marry, drink, get drafted. You know, all the joys. Had a great friendship, thought that this could lead somewhere. A few months later, had a little disagreement about something, and moved on. A year later I was reminiscing and realized how immature I was...but of course fine at the moment. A few years later, realized how silly even that was.

It's always a bit of a crap shoot, as are so many other choices in life. Being prepared and realistic can improve your odds at least.

If you buy a car over the internet you get what you deserve.

This sadly isn't true either as having worked for premium brands like Audi, BMW and Land Rover I've seen many a car bought on line unseen.

Certainly if the car isn't as described when the customer collects it it's down to the dealership but that rarely happens.

Bill x

Have you heard of craigslist? That is what I mean 3rd party. There is some bad cars sold that way. Or you get lucky. Crap shoot.

Yes and I've also heard of Ebay.

You're very good at generalising statements that don't have much foundation.

Bill x

Similar to the meat market bar/nightclubs.

I rode the 11 miles to our shared home and with every yard that got me closer to our lovely place my excitement grew as I'd not seen her for a few hours.
You don't get that

Ahhhhhh. More or less. My best thoughts come when I am on a trampoline.

Shared ? ooohhh shivers. What a horrid thought.

Look, I get it, I just don't and never will see the desire for it.

This probably sounds like a hackneyed philosophy but if my time on this planet has taught me anything it's that things change.

They change so quickly you don't see them coming.

Jobs, relationships, love, goals, even the weather, they have an ability to change and the more you try and nail it all into permanence the more difficult it is to adapt or unpick when they take a 90 degree turn for the worst.

"Winging it" for me ( especially after the last year ) has really paid off for me so I see no reason to fight it because it's paid me well in the past.

In case you wondered I'm not afraid of commitment but what I am afraid of is being unable to get out of a situation or end up paying for it for the rest of my life.

Shrugs.

Bill x

I'm happy that you have found happiness in whatever way you are comfortable with.
I just don't see the need to knock marriage per se when we both know lots of people enjoy their married lives. Its a bit like knocking a scooter marque when you know lots of people enjoy their rides.
It seems to be deliberately nasty.
To say one hates it when lots of people agree with each other also seems to be attention seeking and petulant. Kids will say they are challenging society's norms or sticking it to the man.
My expertise is with kids so maybe it translates to something far deeper and meaningful in adults.

You are right, this is more interesting than some other topics.

Not sure I used the word hate at any point.

Not sure I'm knocking marriage either, I just don't see it as being particularly necessary so I'm asking questions which the last time I looked was allowed.

I've knocked the brand because they aren't all they claim to be where and the brand I chose was and that's it really.

Now, if they were made a bit better it probably wouldn't have happened.

I'm not going to change anyone's mind but I do like to challenge it rather than just drink the Kool Aid and pretend it never happened.

Bill x

One good thing about modern vespa. We can solve all the worlds problems one post at a time.

Meantime, I like Bill Dog...

I'll say, lots of guys agree to marry because they can finally get some stuff on a regular basis, and she sees this as an opportunity for her own satisfaction.

Fact is, we want it all of the time, young guys have it tough, never enough.

Along comes a sweet thing and thinks, "I want it too, can he support me"....

Read, the best guy is the best supporter. Evolution, also in the animal and insect world and so forth clearly show the female chooses for her own delight.

I see daily some young bodies that show a lot, then I think for the young men that will fall for the show in the long run.

Guys, make a marriage contract!!

I did back in '75. I'm happy and still married, because we talked about it and agreed to a wedding, before we got married.

I knew a guy that got a divorce. She even took his dog. He had that dog before he met her. Now that's hate.

Yes, it seems so. Just I believe nowadays this is the real thing. Guys, getting married, you have lost all of your rights to be a man or to be a human. Get a marriage contract, if she refuses, she is not the real deal.

I love my dogs. Getting them away from me would become a real big problem.

Ha....reminds me of my ex's mutt. No way in the world would I let her leave it behind. Neutered female, couldn't walk on leash without choking itself constantly, humped anything that didn't move...stepson's leg, my dog (three times her size) -front AND back.

Now this is just stupid talk.

Glad it worked for you guys but I would be sceptical of this as a rule of marriage. Not all girls show off their body, when women do I find it desperate or trashy. I am not talking about dolled up, I mean skin tight low cut. Is this fun to look at, yeah but to marry, no.
Also learning to control yourself at a young age will pay it self back in good discipline later. You can learn to control yourself in other areas. Work hard, study hard, control anger, lusts, impulse purchases.
And if you brought up a prenuptial agreement just before the wedding that would seem odd. When in a relationship would that be discussed?
I would advise young men and women to not play the field and spend time looking for a good mate. The good ones usually get hitched early and most good ones wont date someone known as a village bicycle.

My wife Philippa and I met at a Youth Hostel in Pilgrims Rest, Eastern Transvaal in 1963. We were members of a team that had gone out there to repair and restore the hostel. After 3 weeks of dating, I asked her to marry me, and she accepted.

We enjoyed 53 years of blissful marriage, and acquired two children and then six grandchildren. In October 2016 she developed a brain tumour in her occipital lobe. This affected her vision in a funny way - she could see things, but had trouble interpreting what she was seeing. While watching TV, for example, she would ask me why all the peoples heads were floating in water! She went through brain surgery and courses of radiation and chemo which extended her life, but it was a one way journey. The tumour took away all her hobbies and the things she loved doing. She just wanted the end to come, and it did finally in April 2018, a year ago. I cared for her all the way until I could no longer cope with getting her out of bed to the toilet and such things. Them she went into a nursing home where she died two weeks later. We were both atheists and do/did not believe inn any sort of afterlife.

Over the past year I have had no purpose in living, and have often thought of suicide. It would be easy for me, I am a diabetic, and could just take an overdose of insulin. But I am doing all the right things. I go to Scottish Country Dance classes three nights a week, and just about every morning I scoot up a windy road through lots of bush to cupcake-in-the-Sky, a coffee and cupcake hangout for motorcyclists. There I meet up with a group of friends and we drink our coffee and chat and solve all the world's problems.

Getting to enjoy being single is going to be a long road for me. I badly need some goals to look forward to, but life is meaningless for me now.

Mike

Grossly generalizing on my part, I see a lot of:"but if you get married young, and you (or she) change, you'll be sad and stuck with somebody different", or something to that effect, in many of the single guys' statements.

You guys have it completely backwards--as you and your spouse change over time, you do it Together, as partners, and you're different, more complete people than when you were single. You shouldn't expect your partner not to change into somebody different over time. That's just not human nature.

I'm not the athletic 18 year old ROTC student, and she's not the irreverent 18 year old hippie, that we were when we met. We've spent 44 years evolving, Together, into a blended whole, and we're better for it.

This discussion is like arguing about flavors of ice cream. It's strictly based upon what you like and want in your life. Bill clearly is happy and comfortable with his decisions and advocates his position candidly. I agree with his points for the most part and I feel like marriage in this day and age is an unnecessary ritual defined by an archaic and useless religious tradition.

There is no financial, emotional, social benefit to being married in Western society. It gives you nothing a well founded partnership doesn't deliver. Children are expensive and too important yet there are no rules governing this and too many irresponsible people take on parenting with disastrous results. He makes a good point in that we are exhausting this planet's resources and having children doesn't help this situation.

Mind you, I have been happily married to my best friend for 27 years. We dated for five years. I also have two beautiful daughters who are my world. I can agree with Bill on every point and yet, it wasn't for me. I love being married and love my wife. I love my kids and we certainly could have afforded more but I felt like any more than two was irresponsible and wrong.

In the end, my choices were for me and his choices are for him. Does it make either of us right or wrong. No. There are elements of both where some objective facts could be considered. Had my girls turned out to be serial killers, he'd be spot on the dangers of having children. As it is, my eldest works in a foundation helping improve education for underprivileged children. She has two degrees and is very active in social causes. My youngest is gifted mathematician working in neurosciences.

To the point, being a parent and being a spouse are tough choices that require time, dedication, patience, love, and understanding. If you aren't up for those things on a daily basis, you're going to be happier without a child or being married. Marriage and child rearing aren't easy and it's certainly not a solution to happiness. If you think doing either of those things will improve or change your state of happiness, you're nuts.

Still, abandoning the pursuit of plaudits of societal expectations is to be admired and appreciated. Bill's comfort with his decision shows that he doesn't want or need the approval of anyone. It's neither selfish nor wrong to be happy being single or not wanting kids. In fact, it's a clear indication of maturity and understanding of what he wants in life. People who tell you that you NEED to be married or are missing something not having kids clearly aren't asking the right questions of that person. It's not for everyone.

No one is saying you need to be married or have kids.
Having children who grow up can help invent new things that help us live better with the planet, look how far we have come in 70 years.
Marriage in a stable home produces much better kids on average than single parent households. Married people have higher earnings, live longer, have self stated happier lives, and also more sex. These things are provable by government data. Marriage built western society the idea of the family is good.

There is demonstrable data to the contrary. You can make statistics read any way you want. There is a plethora of research to show the large number of tragic issues come from the stress of broken homes, divorces, infidelities, and other issues that come with marriage.

Saying Marriage built Western society is ridiculous. It wasn't an optional thing. If you wanted to have a relationship with a person of the opposite sex, you HAD to be married. Marriage is a something that has existed for thousands of years. However, the romantic idea of it is very thin.

It has been a method for transferring lands, monies, and other valuables as a contract. The woman was often used as part of this "deal." Hereditary ownership was and remains a significant method for maintaining wealth over time. Marriage ensured that money stayed in a family. Even today, women are often treated more like property rather than partners in much of the world.

The Catholic Church had no serious investment in marriage and actually pushed against it in it's early history. The idea of marriage as a religious sacrament didn't even arrive until 1547 at the Council of Trent. Prior to that time, you didn't even have to be married. For the common person, marriage was merely mutual consent and divorce was pretty common as well. Again, it only changed when there was property and power involved (Henry VIII).

Marriage isn't a good or bad thing. It's thing that works for some and not so well for others (think Elizabeth Taylor). Our society used to insist on marriage but placing value on it because it was the norm, doesn't make it right. Racism was the norm for centuries, and we now recognize it's wrong. So, I stand with Bill and his approach. He's happy and it works for him.

I love being married and entered into with both eyes open. However, I am glad that world is changing and that marriage is optional and open to anyone.

Dont agree with all of that. But good points.

Mike, I feel bad for what you are going through. I don't want to imagine what it must be like. My wife and I do almost everything together, and have for 47 years. I hope you are able to find some peace and meaning.

On a different tack, today was something made possible by our marriage: we call it "Daddy-Daughter Day." We are in the city where our daughter and son-in-law live; we visit here a couple months each year. Our time here is getting short, so it was a delight to have some time one-on-one with my daughter. She asked what I wanted to do: "How about lunch out and a scooter ride?"

I was surprised when she said, "Sounds great!" We used to to cross-country motorcycle touring when she was young (the reason my wife and I each had our own bikes), but our daughter hasn't been on a bike for more than a few blocks (on the back of one of mine) since she went off to college many years ago. With that in mind, I didn't plan a long ride - we did some "urban cruising" in the west side of the Valley of the Sun (Phoenix area). Riding on 45 mph roads, we could still converse. It was a very pleasant afternoon. Then, back to our motorhome so the three of us could spend some time together.

I cherish our time together. None of this would have been possible without the marriage and commitment made by my wife and me. Our daughter is a teacher - one of the good ones who works to make sure the students learn, AND helps them become better people.

Is marriage for you? It isn't an individual choice. The key is to find the person who will work with you to make the relationship. Moving beyond my mid-60s, I can't imagine life without my partner. My heart hurts for Mike who is in that journey. I have been fortunate thus far, but I am aware that life gives us no guarantees. Would my life have been better if I hadn't married? Not in any way I can imagine.

I do remember thinking the night our daughter was born: "This is going to change a LOT of things." It made me want to be a better man.

-------

For Mike: a friend of ours lost his wife to cancer. He was her caregiver for a couple years while she deteriorated. When she passed, he told me he was "lost." After getting a home sold (they had two homes), he made plans to get away for a while: he took his boat up the inside passage from Washington State to Alaska, solo. When he came back, I saw a different guy: ready to move on with life, including meeting new people. It has been several years; he has a new lady friend and lives in a resort community where there are plenty of things to do. An ever-expanding group of friends.

I'm not saying this is the path for you, just saying that your life has meaning... but you may have to look for that meaning. Wishing the best for you.

Jim

+1 thanks Jim.

For Mike, look to see if there is a cancer survivors group around your area. There is one where I live in the states. It would be good for you to know you are not alone or that the feelings you have are normal at a time as hard as this. There is no words to say to fix the darkness or way for me to know what you are going through. But reach out and find some people who would know your pain. Keep it together, there are alot of people who care about you. I have dealt with too many losses from depression, I just dont think people know what they mean to others.

Mike and Paddlenround you both humble me with your words.

Thank you both so much for sharing.

Oh my.

Bill x

This is odd - I would advise young men and women to not play the field and spend time looking for a good mate. The good ones usually get hitched early and most good ones wont date someone known as a village bicycle.

No no no, play the field, make mistakes, have a really good time looking for the right partner while not giving a fuck what people think about you because they are only using their own standards to judge you.

You think you do but when you're young you don't have enough life experiences to really understand yourself and therefore others.

If you marry early to the first one who comes along in the belief that she's the right one only to find that he or she is a fruitloop in waiting you then you are truly buggered.

You sign up early you limit your own experiences, finance and options.

I think that there's a lot of self convincing going on when you get married early because you're going to ignore doubts about them or what you're committing to because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Is she the one ? ermmmm possibly. Isn't what your going to hear.

Some people get really lucky but I'm a realist. People, circumstances and priorities change in life and I've rolled with them every time it's happened.

I'm still having a ball at my age and I don't have to ask anyone's permission to do it. It's bloody amazing.

My partner and I love each others company but we also like being on our own so why nail ourselves into permanence ?

Bill x

Here is one problem with that logic. Most people do not respect the choices of abstinence or marrying young. Most including family are unsupportive of this kind of choice. The young generation where I am is told to " have fun " and " you dont want to have regrets " now my generation is only getting their life together at 30. Most live with parents or play house with a boy or girl friend and it goes bad. The kids I know are not embracing responsibility of being an adult but want to make adult decisions. Most have kids now with people they aren't with and no security of a husband.
I am not saying you should marry young. Most aren't ready. But dating for "fun" is wasting time if you are looking for a spouse. If you are tied up in go nowhere relationships that are going to fail because of major life goal differences you are not single and looking for a compatible spouse.

I will admit I am puzzled by how you mention what society pressures marriage. It dont here. High school makes fun of virgins, even if it is a choice that takes guts to do. I dont understand this statement.

I didn't say that society pressures marriage.

Bill x

I get you now.
That's funny.
My experience has been that women when I was young were scared of something serious. I have never been pressured or implied by a women to marry them or someone else.
Good call, makes sense but I never experienced that.

Maybe they were just scared of you looking for your bride or maybe they just wanted to have fun without getting serious ?

Here's a warning from Paul McCartney.

This guy has written more songs about being in Love than anyone.

The state of being in it, losing it and experiencing the whole roller coaster of emotions then putting it to music so you'd think that he'd be at the front of the queue in understanding it

Along comes the lying gold digger Heather Mills and takes him for a ride.

Marries him, has a child then lies about his conduct to anyone who would listen.

Lucky the Judge eventually saw her for what she was and awarded her a pittance of what she felt she deserved post divorce.

Now if this guy can get duped then so can you and he's a professional.

Bill x

I am a scooter dork. Not high up on the hot list like a musician.

Bigger question... I know the ice cream was fulfilling but do you lie awake at night wondering about the coffee?