First full restoration project.. 1980 P200E
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Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:29 pm quote
https://youtu.be/j3R1veLlGcY

Here's one video, let me see what else I can find.

https://blog.scooter-center.com/en/tutorial-measuring-the-inlet-timing-vespa-px/
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:40 pm quote
Good video and link Christopher!

I have already measured it physically prior to grinding but left my degree wheel up in NYC so I need to grab another one so that I can confirm post grinding.

Wasn't sure if he was talking about open vs close on the pad or the inner edge vs outer edge of the inlet grinding surface. Cause the open inlet was widened to 7mm mark at the crankshaft mating edge, but not ground down completely to the carb mating edge, leaving a few mm of inner wall. Did this cause I didn't want to break too much into the stud hole.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:18 pm quote
I'm watching with interest, I have my P225 that hasn't been touched and have no idea what I'll get for numbers. Would like to know where I want to be before I crack the case open.

Working on my garage sheetrock, to get it sealed up may not get the cases cracked before spring. I do have insulation and heat its, 60F in there just a mess.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:22 pm quote
I wish i had heat in my garage back home. Postponing your rebuild in favor of garage prep is totally worth it.

So you have a p225 already tuned by previous owner? What's the cylinder on it?
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:26 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
I wish i had heat in my garage back home. Postponing your rebuild in favor of garage prep is totally worth it.

So you have a p225 already tuned by previous owner? What's the cylinder on it?
P225 yes, tuned not really, more like assembled, it wasn't even broke in yet. The cases are virgin. He said that it was assembled, ran to make sure everything was working, but never tore it back down for optimization. I was working on dialing in the TMX 30 carburetor before it got cold.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:31 pm quote
Ah. Well at least he left the fun part to you.

This engine is keeping the auto lube but upgrading to same 24/24 carb on my Stella. Haven't messed with any of those tmx or phbh carbs yet but i have a p125 engine with vmc kit on deck after this project is done. That one i plan on going with a larger carb as it's not auto lube as stock.

Btw, i see from your signature that cylinder is a pinasco. Haven't really looked at them but I'm interested to see what you do with it.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:44 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Ah. Well at least he left the fun part to you.

This engine is keeping the auto lube but upgrading to same 24/24 carb on my Stella. Haven't messed with any of those tmx or phbh carbs yet but i have a p125 engine with vmc kit on deck after this project is done. That one i plan on going with a larger carb as it's not auto lube as stock.

Btw, i see from your signature that cylinder is a pinasco. Haven't really looked at them but I'm interested to see what you do with it.
I can already cruise at 60 mph on my test road and test hill. Could use a little more 5500-6000 rpm torque, not looking for max power at a higher rpm. Not going to do much if anything to the cylinder, cleaned up the ports. I'm interested in the rotary valve as its physical top dimension is smaller then 30mm. I want to open it up to at least match the adapter block to the intake and clean up that drilled hole. My rotary valve has a drilled hole like yours.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:21 am quote
Filled in the stud hole and polished up the rotary opening. Cleaned up the barrel and chamfered ports. Reshaped the exhaust port just the slightest amount to get nice smooth edges and better rounding in the corners. Just about ready to assemble!

Gotta say my favorite part of a rebuild is the dremel profiling of the exhaust! OCD in overdrive.










Template for the exhaust port profile


Applying template to barrel






Done with the prep work



Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:03 pm quote
Physically measured the rotary inlet that was widened. I came up 2mm short on my target, so I'm currently at 190 degrees admission with a 116/74 split. If i grind it another 2mm wider then I'll hit my 121/74 and 195 deg admission target. So I'll be fine tuning this sightly.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:18 pm quote
What does that exhaust port look like with the stub screwed in?
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:41 pm quote
The stub is wider than the exhaust port opening so it shouldn't be a problem. You can't really shape the inner material to blend edges to the exhaust stub on the 200 cylinder because the material between the opening in the barrel and where the threads are for the exhaust stub is very thin. Not really any room to grind out that wouldn't affect the exhaust opening face inside the barrel. I'll update this post in a minute with some photos to show what I'm talking about.

Just ground out the rotary inlet another 1.6mm and it's on target now with 121/74 split and 195 admission. Maybe one or two miniscule openings to the stud hole again so I'm gonna apply another fine coat of steelstik again and sand it down smooth.

Edit: photos added.






Finally hit the target 121/74 195








Inner exhaust port to stub screw thickness not enough to grind a smooth transition



Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2234
Location: california
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:03 pm quote
Very nice looking Swiss - and by that I mean what ever garage you are in.
🙂

The porting work looks terrific as well.
One of the more fun ones - I agree.
Addicted
1981 P200E / 1979 P200E / 1974 Rally 200
Joined: 30 Jul 2009
Posts: 580
Location: San Francisco, CA
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:03 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
rowdyc wrote:
You can get re-printed stickers from 2nd Avenue Scooters. Website is down but can contact him via Facebook.
I'll have to check it out! Are they metallic surfaced stickers like the original?
These are the stickers from Second Avenue Scooters. Only slight difference is that they are plastic, and not foil like the originals. So the numbers look a little different. But they look so nice. I love them.









Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:38 pm quote
hjo wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
rowdyc wrote:
You can get re-printed stickers from 2nd Avenue Scooters. Website is down but can contact him via Facebook.
I'll have to check it out! Are they metallic surfaced stickers like the original?
These are the stickers from Second Avenue Scooters. Only slight difference is that they are plastic, and not foil like the originals. So the numbers look a little different. But they look so nice. I love them.
Thats awesome. Got any way to get in touch with them to order some of these?
Addicted
1981 P200E / 1979 P200E / 1974 Rally 200
Joined: 30 Jul 2009
Posts: 580
Location: San Francisco, CA
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:41 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Thats awesome. Got any way to get in touch with them to order some of these?
They have a Facebook page. The person is named Eric Lussier, he's on FB, too.

https://www.facebook.com/2ndAvenueScooters/
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2748
Location: London UK
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:42 pm quote
Looking good. This ends up as 121/74 and 127/182/28 it's going to run just fine. Squish at 1.0 and compression 11:1 or so and it will be quite something once all set up.
Guess it will be quite some time before the running in stage.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:17 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Guess it will be quite some time before the running in stage.
Probably have it rebuilt in the next 2-3 weeks depending on what parts I forgot to order... but yeah getting it run in is going to be a while as the frame still needs to get a por-15 treatment and re-assembled with new front hub and it's up north in NYC which I won't be back up there until after the Superbowl earliest cause that is my work's broadcast this year and I'll be working all day every day that week.

Hopefully second week of Feb I can get back up to NYC to grab that frame and bring it down.. or possibly just grab the stella to bring down here. In which case, I could swap engines and run in/jet this p200 in the stella frame before dealing with the p200 frame.

I'll try to get a port tracing in the next few days and re-measure the exhaust port to confirm its still at or near the original timings. Might have raised the port slightly due to the fact that the top edge of the exhaust was poorly cast and very uneven. I ground it all up to the same height to get a straight edge up top, but didn't go any further to keep the timing/blowback changes to bare minimum necessary for that straightening.

Edit:
Somewhere along the line i must have been playing with numbers in the calculator and forgot to set them back to measured, cause my exhaust timing was off. Just measured it at 39.08mm after grinding. Which means my cylinder timing is 165/126 with 20 blowdown. It's not as sporty as you like but hopefully still strong with good torque.





Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2748
Location: London UK
Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:18 am quote
Less impressive. Transfers are normally 49.50mm and not 48mm. Sure this is measured correctly?
39mm exhaust is pretty typical.

If setting PBT at -1.0mm below deck to get the squish correct and all of your measurements check out, then this is not going to perform so well. 165/126/20 on a 195 degree inlet is going to have very good torque but will Pmax at 5000rpm. Might overrun to 6500rpm but quick it won't be. Will be like a very strong stock P200 but could actually be less max speed than stock with the wrong exhaust.

If the transfers really do measure 48mm, then the exhaust port needs to move a lot. About 4.0mm gets it into the fun zone.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:45 am quote
You are correct, the transfer ports were approx 49.25 on avg. I say avg cause they are slightly slanted and I took a bunch of measurements that ranged from 49-50mm, so my avg across both transfer ports and all the measurements was approx 49.25mm.

These are the most accurate measurements because I changed my way of measuring from sticking a flathead screwdriver in until it hit the port edge I want to measure, then use the digital caliper to push against the flat edge of the screwdriver until the caliper bottoms out on deck.

Instead I cut the teeth off one side of my digital calipers (side that measures inner instead of outer) so that I could fit the digital calipers into the bore and measure straight with the caliper. I am more confident in these measurements now.

Exhaust: 38.89mm
Transfer: 49.25mm
Rotary Open: 49.56mm
Rotary Close: 26.59mm

Timings with 1mm squish = 165/119 23 blowdown and 121/74 195 admission.

With 1.2mm squish the cylinder timings raise to 166/120.



Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2748
Location: London UK
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:41 pm quote
Well thats better. Still dull but more normal dull. We all know what a stock 200 is like. Yours will be improved but only just. The 187 LML will go past it in 3rd.
Leave the squish at 1mm but raise the exhaust 10 degrees and it will go better. Try it first if you like but you'll be back.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:45 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Leave the squish at 1mm but raise the exhaust 10 degrees and it will go better. Try it first if you like but you'll be back.
Lol. perfectly sums it up. I want to leave it better dull for now! Cause my next build is a p125 with vmc 177 aluminum kit long stroked again 187 that I plan on going way more peaky than the malossi 177 with including expansion chamber with large 28 or 30mm carb and premix.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:52 am quote
Final port profile for minimal exhaust changes done.
42.12mm arc. 63% exhaust width.

Problem i just uncovered with this brand new cylinder.. not sure how critical and thinking i could possibly fix it with some steelstik but I'm not sure how much temp that can hold up to. Any advice would be great! Just noticed there is a hole in a section of threaded exhaust screw outside surface of the cylinder that opens up into one of the stud holes. The hole is right at the base of where the stud threads are, so air can get through that hole in its way out of the bore as it heads through the exhaust stub. I doubt the exhaust stub can be screwed on flush enough to the end of the threads to seal that hole and prevent air from diverting out the stud hole.

Should i try contacting sip to get a replacement as this is a casting defect, not related to anything I've modified?

Also any tricks to get the exhaust stub to screw on? It won't thread on smoothly and keeps getting stuck as soon as it gets on the threads.








Dental pick through the hole from exhaust port into the stud hole.


light shone from exhaust stub through defect hole into mounting stud hole.

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:27 pm quote
If you turn the paper with the tracing facing the cylinder and tape the inside end with scotch tape you can pull out the paper cylinder and measure cord width.

What does your exhaust stub look like on the thread end? Is it new or used?

I would send those pictures to SIP and see what they tell you. I agree it's a manufacturing defect.

I've never tried it but here is a high heat version.

https://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-extremeheat
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:31 pm quote
I'm wondering if this extreme heat jb weld would be suitable to repair the casting defect? Supposedly up to 2400f, but the description on the site says 1000f. I've contacted SIP to see if they would replace it, but this is my backup in case they won't.

https://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-extremeheat

Is they do replace, then I'm thinking of using this barrel to experiment on and see how much widening i can do with the dremel to the exhaust port before it breaks into the stud hole.

Edit: damn you beat me to it. Was in middle of typing this out when you posted the same product.

Exhaust stub is brand new.



Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:44 pm quote
This thread has a formula for converting flat width to chord width. From the reading I have done chord width is used to get port%.


P200 Performance Build-Up (Page 2)
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:52 pm quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
This thread has a formula for converting flat width to chord width. From the reading I have done chord width is used to get port%.


P200 Performance Build-Up (Page 2)
Thanks! Here is the formula:

bore*sin(width/bore)

66.5*sin(42.12/66.5)= 39.35 or 59% width.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:14 pm quote
looking like this extreme heat jb weld is not going to work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxM2aZmzrag&ab_channel=E.F.Insanity

Thinking I may try to have someone weld up that small hole.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2748
Location: London UK
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:06 pm quote
Anyone think this is an LML cylinder? I would just leave the hole. If the stub screws in tight it will be mostly closed.
Experiment by upping the exhaust port 10 degrees where it will go properly. You're already not stock timing as it has a 60mm crank.
What's the piston like? Rough as the cylinder?
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:08 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
looking like this extreme heat jb weld is not going to work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxM2aZmzrag&ab_channel=E.F.Insanity

Thinking I may try to have someone weld up that small hole.
I would like to preface this with, I have no experience with this epoxy. I also have no idea if it would work used properly.

He used it wrong and did it on purpose. He tried using it like tape and the epoxy did what tape would do bubble and came off. The instructions clearly said to create a 1/8" gap so the putty could be squished through the crack, then the putty would be filling the crack as it dried, not trying to bond to the surface. Also cure it in an oven if you can, Mom may not like that though.

Welding is the best repair option, if you want to fix it not sure how well a welder could get into the spot.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:08 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Anyone think this is an LML cylinder? I would just leave the hole. If the stub screws in tight it will be mostly closed.
Experiment by upping the exhaust port 10 degrees where it will go properly. You're already not stock timing as it has a 60mm crank.
What's the piston like? Rough as the cylinder?
Piston is perfect. It's a gs piston.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2748
Location: London UK
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:32 am quote
Better. With that piston arc width can be 47mm without any concern. Apart from breaking into a stud.
With the 57mm crank a typical stock cylinder has 26 degrees blowdown. With a 60mm crank this is less. Yours will have 23.5. So great potential for being slower than stock. I doubt it will be though. With all the other changes it should just make back to stock top speed.
Exhaust port raised 2.5mm will bring you up to adequate. Can do it now or later.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:09 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Better. With that piston arc width can be 47mm without any concern. Apart from breaking into a stud.
With the 57mm crank a typical stock cylinder has 26 degrees blowdown. With a 60mm crank this is less. Yours will have 23.5. So great potential for being slower than stock. I doubt it will be though. With all the other changes it should just make back to stock top speed.
Exhaust port raised 2.5mm will bring you up to adequate. Can do it now or later.
I hear you on bringing the blowdown back to stock 26 after changing to long stroke.

I spoke to SIP today about the barrel and they will get back to me on if they will approve it for return based on manufacturing defect. Hopefully Monday I'll have an answer.

So I started cleaning up the carb box and auto mixer parts and am unable to remove the plastic carb casing bush that holds the oil mixer spring and ball bearing in.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/bush-carburettor-casing_13357800


Also unable to remove the bottom part of the oil pump with two rubber gaskets on it, from the carb casing.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/oil-pump_22161400

It seems to be seized in there good from not being used in 20-40 years. Tried heating up the case and using needle nose pliers to grip it and pull it out. Won't budge. Unfortunate because the oil pump gear is in great condition and you can only order both together new for quite a bit of money surprisingly.

So I need to replace these items which all seem rare to find and expensive.

Parts needed:

Carb case: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/carburettor-casing-piaggio_23916700
Oil Pump: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/oil-pump_22161400
Bush carb casing: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/bush-carburettor-casing_13357800
Spring carb casing: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/spring-carburettor-casing_11329100
carb casing ball bearing: part #14246


If anyone has spares of these parts willing to part I am looking for them. I'm talking to all you guys who remove your auto lube in favor of pre-mix!


better look at the barrel defect.






oil mixer bottom part and the plastic bush holding the bearing/spring are both stuck in the carb case. Any tips?

Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2086
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:28 pm quote
Compressed air blew that spring and plug out of the carb and across the garage before I knew what happened. Maybe that'll work...
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:31 pm quote
qascooter wrote:
Compressed air blew that spring and plug out of the carb and across the garage before I knew what happened. Maybe that'll work...
From what hole did you blow in? the screw hole on the outside? or down the gullet of the bottom part of the oil pump that is also stuck? Problem with going down the oil pump part is its half in half out, so the holes on the sides don't line up with the passages on the carb casing.
Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2086
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:43 pm quote
I was drying out the box and put the compressor nozzle down the main gear hole, and pooof, the spring, plug, and ball bearing disappeared...
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:49 pm quote
qascooter wrote:
I was drying out the box and put the compressor nozzle down the main gear hole, and pooof, the spring, plug, and ball bearing disappeared...
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:17 pm quote
Gonna take a full oil mix carb box off greasy along with a front hub.

Still waiting on SIP for return/replace of the barrel, but in meantime got the cases ready to start assembling. Bearings and seals are in. Also finally built my chandlerman engine stand.



Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1656
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:44 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Gonna take a full oil mix carb box off greasy along with a front hub.

Still waiting on SIP for return/replace of the barrel, but in meantime got the cases ready to start assembling. Bearings and seals are in. Also finally built my chandlerman engine stand.
What you don't want to feel like a monkey trying to hold onto a greased football?
Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2086
Location: Florence, OR
Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:13 pm quote
Engine half on the couch!

Reminds me of when I was living in an apartment and would park my Suzuki street bike in the kitchen and work on it.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2961
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:29 pm quote
qascooter wrote:
Engine half on the couch!

Reminds me of when I was living in an apartment and would park my Suzuki street bike in the kitchen and work on it.
Lol. That's the old couch from my parents living room sitting in the garage waiting for salvation army to come pick it up.
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