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@swiss1939 avatar
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UTC quote
Here you go. Solution:

throw the P208 into this with the rear hub/wheel from this (since I forgot my p2 rear hub 1000 miles away).
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Hopefully have the P208 engine rolling on back roads this week.. pending my ability to clean the gas tank/fuel tap out of this thing. Its pretty nasty in there!
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Molto Verboso
Vespa
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UTC quote
outstanding Swiss
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
Another one in the collection. They do accumulate. Like it/hate it. I would fix the minimum and ride it. Brakes and lights would be nice.
P208 should be quite quick. Fastest that frame has ever been. Rear hub has a chance of fitting the oil seal. Which one in the 208 motor 27, 30 or internal?
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The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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UTC quote
Dang Swiss, nice work! Sounds good idling. This motor build is just about EXACT what I want to do for my Patina200E project. Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to seeing this in a frame
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UTC quote
I've got a blue 27 outer seal on the p2 rear hub now.
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UTC quote
Old engine out. New engine in soon. Gotta go buy a 23mm socket to get the seized rear hub off!
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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UTC quote
No Stella rear hub on p2 engine yet. Stella 30mm oil seal. P2 engine has 27mm. I've got a spare 30mm seal but I'm not gonna swap out cause then I'll have to waste 2 seals when i go back to the correct p2 rear hub. So it will wait for another month till I'm back up in nyc.
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UTC quote
Nice one Sean!!
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UTC quote
swiss1939 wrote:
No Stella rear hub on p2 engine yet. Stella 30mm oil seal. P2 engine has 27mm. I've got a spare 30mm seal but I'm not gonna swap out cause then I'll have to waste 2 seals when i go back to the correct p2 rear hub. So it will wait for another month till I'm back up in nyc.
Careful.
This is how I ended up with a lathe.
OP
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Careful.
This is how I ended up with a lathe.
Ha. I'm already scheming my entry into a smaller lathe cause i want to clean up the p200 front hub inner surface to get rid of the rust pitting and reuse the hub instead of buy new.

I keep checking cl and fb marketplace.
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UTC quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Ha. I'm already scheming my entry into a smaller lathe cause i want to clean up the p200 front hub inner surface to get rid of the rust pitting and reuse the hub instead of buy new.

I keep checking cl and fb marketplace.
Set an alert.
Good ones go to first caller like Islander tickets given away on the radio.
Alert will put you in position A - though fair warning - you will get alerts about things that don't seem to have any relationship to a lathe.

Still...
Its effective to get right price.
OP
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UTC quote
Yep. Same thing with scooters. I got alerts for everything!
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Old engine out. New engine in soon. Gotta go buy a 23mm socket to get the seized rear hub off!
Why 23mm? Old style is 22mm and new is 24mm. Metric system couldn't be easier
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Jack221 wrote:
Why 23mm? Old style is 22mm and new is 24mm. Metric system couldn't be easier
Yeah i meant 24mm.
⬆️    About 3 months elapsed    ⬇️
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UTC quote
Trying to get this engine running in a frame with minimal effort and it's turned into maximum effort as usual.

Anyone else fit a p200 engine into a Stella frame with no modification? Damn thing don't fit. Swing arm and rubber bushings are too wide for the Stella frame. Tried pulling the bushings in tighter and they are fully in.

Am I missing something?

Prolly just gonna put it off to side again and get my running Stella engine back into this and resort to the long game. Get the p2 frame back together.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
That's nothing to adjust with the Tonya Harding (hammer).

Maybe one side is in more then the other and a little massage and tickle may help it out.
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UTC quote
That's what I thought. I was smacking it with rubber mallet for 10 minutes with no progress and before I went to town just wanted to make sure I'm not trying to jam a square peg in a round hole and they aren't compatible.
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Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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UTC quote
Yep, pull motor back out and use a big hammer or maybe get lucky and just use a pry bar to spread the frame a bit as it sits now.
Quote:
Anyone else fit a p200 engine into a Stella frame with no modification?
Yep. Should be same size, here's my P200 motor just installed in a Stella frame:

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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UTC quote
Bushings should be a tad more in. Did the tubes touch in the middle??
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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UTC quote
Diy puller tool which is threaded rod and washers causes the two tubes to squeeze together and touch. It's preventing the rubber itself from seating fully. I'll skip the puller and go to town on each side individually with a pipe and mallet so that the pipe is pushing on just the rubber bushing to hopefully snug them both up the 1mm or so it's needed.
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UTC quote
If I were that close, I would use a pry bar.

The smarter thing however would be to fix the problem.
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UTC quote
Successfully persuaded by carefully using diy puller tool on each side with spacers to keep the tool from pressing on the off side bushng tube. Engine mounted and reconnecting everything now.
⬆️    About 1 month elapsed    ⬇️
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UTC quote
Ok I know many have recently posted with similar issues, and I've been trying to diagnose myself but I'm still stumped. I got this SIP ultra strong clutch in and it seems the springs are not as stiff as the bgm one in my tuned stella. I have tried setting up the clutch cable tighter and looser to solve the problems I'm encountering but neither seems to work.

When I install a fresh push rod and plate, it runs and works fine for a few miles but then starts to grind softly when lever pulled. It also rapidly starts to go from working fine to shifting difficult and stalling when the clutch lever is pulled while still in 1st or shifting into first without throttle. I know this means the clutch isn't fully disengaging and the grinding is the push rod wearing down. So I know that what is happening is the push rod is getting shorter and then that starts to cause the rest of issues, but it happens so fast. It is also happening when I set the clutch cable really loose.

This SIP ultra strong clutch seems to be too easy to pull the lever as I can remove the cable nipples and push the clutch pushrod fully engaged with my hand. On my bgm clutch it is completely different in that I can push clutch lever arm by hand until the pushrod engages with the pressure plate and then I can only go further if the cable is attached the the clutch lever on handle with the leverage that gives. This makes it easy to set up the clutch lever cable on the bgm clutch because I just use the third hand tool to push the clutch lid lever until it stops.. then back out just a hair and set the nipples up. On this SIP Super strong clutch the lid lever just seems so much easier to push so i've most recently set it really loose far away from the hard stop hoping that would prevent the eventual grinding and stalling. It worked for about 5 min and then started up again.

So i dont know if its just a poorly set up clutch cable or if something else is going wrong, but it seems to be no matter how I set this clutch cable up on this specific clutch, the pushrod always starts grinding and leading to stalling while in gear and clutch lever fully engaged, but no throttle.

I did check to see if my flywheel shifts out of place when the lever is pulled and it doesn't budge so I don't believe the crankshaft is moving horizontally in place.

This video was no more than 1 mile after I just installed a new push rod and set the clutch cable up to its loosest I've tried, when it was working great as I just rode in circles in front of my garage 5 min previously.. but then started stalling again when stopped waiting for cars in front of me to go through a stop sign while I had it in first with clutch lever pulled.

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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
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UTC quote
Sounds to me like something's scraping. Are you extra double sure the flywheel isn't moving? Take the flywheel cover off and look for scrape marks inside. Also see if the edges of the flywheel fins look shiny.

I'd also check inside the clutch cover and see if there's any evidence the basket or a plate is touching inside when the clutch is disengaged.
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UTC quote
It's definitely not the flywheel fins scraping the inside of the cover, i've checked previously and just double checked again now.

This is temporarily in my tuned stella frame. Im gonna swap the tuned engine back into its correct frame and take this p200 engine back onto the bench and try to get a better look at all the clutch parts and crank to see if I can find any specific clues to anything else. If I can't find anything obvious, then I'll just wait till spring when I have the correct frame for this engine back together. Im down all running bikes with this clutch issue in my stella frame. Quicker to get the known running stella engine back in with no clutch issues to at least have 1 good bike on the road!

Its already too damn cold to really spend a decent amount of time on the ground working on scooters outside debugging mysterious issues. The engine itself runs great, when the clutch isn't doing this, and that was my main goal in throwing it in the stella frame. At least I have a couple running engines that have minor issues instead of lots of non running engines!

2 more engines currently on the shelf in process of rebuild and a third in the on deck circle. My goal is to get every engine I have not already rebuilt, rebuilt by the spring... 2nd stella, p125 and v100 engines. This way when its warm out again I can get them all running in frames at the same time when I have tons of free time and warm weather to fiddle around with nuisance issues like this!
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UTC quote
swiss1939 wrote:
...at least have 1 good bike on the road!...
Good plan.

This is my philosophy - I shoot for two operable bikes on the road. They don't have to be perfect, but able to function well. The third can be down for whatever if two are operable...
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Ok I know many have recently posted with similar issues, and I've been trying to diagnose myself but I'm still stumped. I got this SIP ultra strong clutch in and it seems the springs are not as stiff as the bgm one in my tuned stella. I have tried setting up the clutch cable tighter and looser to solve the problems I'm encountering but neither seems to work.

When I install a fresh push rod and plate, it runs and works fine for a few miles but then starts to grind softly when lever pulled. It also rapidly starts to go from working fine to shifting difficult and stalling when the clutch lever is pulled while still in 1st or shifting into first without throttle. I know this means the clutch isn't fully disengaging and the grinding is the push rod wearing down. So I know that what is happening is the push rod is getting shorter and then that starts to cause the rest of issues, but it happens so fast. It is also happening when I set the clutch cable really loose.

This SIP ultra strong clutch seems to be too easy to pull the lever as I can remove the cable nipples and push the clutch pushrod fully engaged with my hand. On my bgm clutch it is completely different in that I can push clutch lever arm by hand until the pushrod engages with the pressure plate and then I can only go further if the cable is attached the the clutch lever on handle with the leverage that gives. This makes it easy to set up the clutch lever cable on the bgm clutch because I just use the third hand tool to push the clutch lid lever until it stops.. then back out just a hair and set the nipples up. On this SIP Super strong clutch the lid lever just seems so much easier to push so i've most recently set it really loose far away from the hard stop hoping that would prevent the eventual grinding and stalling. It worked for about 5 min and then started up again.

So i dont know if its just a poorly set up clutch cable or if something else is going wrong, but it seems to be no matter how I set this clutch cable up on this specific clutch, the pushrod always starts grinding and leading to stalling while in gear and clutch lever fully engaged, but no throttle.

I did check to see if my flywheel shifts out of place when the lever is pulled and it doesn't budge so I don't believe the crankshaft is moving horizontally in place.

This video was no more than 1 mile after I just installed a new push rod and set the clutch cable up to its loosest I've tried, when it was working great as I just rode in circles in front of my garage 5 min previously.. but then started stalling again when stopped waiting for cars in front of me to go through a stop sign while I had it in first with clutch lever pulled.

I think you need a clutch cover spacer

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/spacer-sip-cnc-clutch-cover_17650000?q=Clutch%20cover%20spacer
or

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/spacer-serie-pro-clutch-cover_17642000?q=Clutch%20cover%20spacer
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UTC

Nedminder
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UTC quote
Who dat has this called.
Sometimes they scrub the cover - and you can't easily pick up where - the marks aren't as evident as you think.
But clutch is probably scraping clutch cover.
You may have already shaved the cover.
If honest - I am no fan of shaving them.
Super prone to failure at the worst moment - ask me how I know.
It's already thin - and it's a structural component.
I'm a fan of the SIP one - tho unreasonably expensive - cause it seals.
All the other's don't really as the O ring doesn't get compressed properly, in my experience.


https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/spacer-sip-cnc-clutch-cover_17650000
OP
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UTC quote
I've dremeled this cover quite a bit already, prior to install. I also would prefer not to use spacer on clutch cover as I'm running the widest tire that can possibly fit on this engine with no swingarm modifications... so I'm already getting minor tire rubbings on the outside of clutch cover from when I hit a bump and the tire deforms slightly. Add a spacer and that problem only gets worse. Facepalm emoticon
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
well - you could have a billet one turned that was rectangular in x section...
Failing that..put a small spacer on your wheel to push it out a few mm to compensate for a spacer on the cover.

you can make a homemade spacer as well.
perhaps try it - and it it works - then determine best means to deal with the tire rubbing.
OP
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UTC quote
Just had a thought that it doesn't make sense to me that the clutch would only be contacting cover when the lever pulled. When lever pulled, the clutch is being pushed inward toward engine, away from clutch cover. This is making me wonder if possibly the clutch is contacting that aluminum tab on the inside of the clutch opening of the case itself. I think I remember seeing some people had to dremel that section off when going to ultra strong clutches. I'll be checking that first when the engine is back on shelf.

EDIT:

Thinking further on it, I did not have to do this with my stella case, so I did not expect to have to do it on this p200 case. I did test fit the clutch in case when testing the clutch cover for contacting the clutch. I dry fit the cover until it did not contact the new clutch at all, but I am realizing now that despite the clutch spinning freely in the case, this was not tested with the clutch lever engaged as I did not realize that was a test I should have tried. So im willing to bet that case beam has some damage to it from the clutch basket contacting when the lever is pulled.

FMP shows it here (circled in light yellow at bottom of image):
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
⚠️ Last edited by swiss1939 on UTC; edited 1 time
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Like - let us know what you find.
Sometimes, using sharpie to blue everything up and then spinning will show you what two things are contacting.
(some blue ink in a pot if you have it is simpler - but this will often get it done too).
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@swiss1939 avatar
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P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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@swiss1939 avatar
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Like - let us know what you find.
Sometimes, using sharpie to blue everything up and then spinning will show you what two things are contacting.
(some blue ink in a pot if you have it is simpler - but this will often get it done too).
I went the blue grease route. coated the inside of the cover with blue grease and installed the cover and rotated the crank a few times then pulled cover to see where it was clean. Had to do this a ton of times until I ground out enough for the blue grease to remain untouched by the spinning clutch!
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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UTC quote
As I think about it, I might have had to dremel down that bit of the case on my P200 when I put a BGM Superstrong in there. I'll have to go dig around in my posts and pictures to say for sure.

I have a different clutch issue with that motor, which is that it only wants to engage at the very top of the clutch travel. I'm thinking I need a thicker spacer under the clutch, maybe? Get it closer to the clutch arm.
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@swiss1939 avatar
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P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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@swiss1939 avatar
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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This solution would make sense given my symptoms.

No matter how tight or loose I make the cable, it always wants to die when lever pulled in gear with no throttle... Which to me says the clutch is not disengaging fully at any point. I can gather that is due to the clutch basket is spinning freely not contacting the case beam, but when lever pulled, the basket is pressing against the end of that beam and being preventing from disengaging fully. This would also explain why my brass push rods are never fully worn down for the amount of grinding that I hear, or why when I'm setting up the clutch cable it seems I'm hitting the hard stop of the clutch fully disengaged way too soon.

Been driving me nuts for the last month! Also been too laser focused on it being related to cable tightness and push rod issues that I was blinded to the possibility of something else being the issue.
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
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UTC quote
+1 on the cover spacer. The stronger clutches are bigger by around 3mm. Grinding out the cover works the same but takes a while. Buying a pre ground out cover is really easy.

There thing is that when installing these bigger clutches the oil way has to be ground away. If too much is ground away no oil flows to the plunger. Plunger wears away, makes grinding noises, doesn't work for long. I expect there is insufficient oil way left to get oil from the ring gear to the plunger. The oil way can be fixed by grinding it back in.
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
The billet clutch baskets also foul out against the clutch arm (steel against steel). That's the other reason to use a spacer. You can only grind down the diameter of the clutch arm so far until it weakens it too much. What size rear tire and wheel combo do you have that's bringing it so close to the clutch cover?
⚠️ Last edited by whodatschrome on UTC; edited 1 time
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@swiss1939 avatar
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P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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@swiss1939 avatar
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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UTC quote
Both good points about the oil way and I didn't even think about the lever arm turning in place and contacting the basket. I'll check that as well. Tires are 110/80. If the spacer is necessary than I'll have to go back to normal tires on this engine.
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@swiss1939 avatar
UTC

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P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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@swiss1939 avatar
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4110
Location: Staten Island, NY
UTC quote
Got out in the garage early today to pull my tuned Stella clutch and see if the lever arm was grinding on that as well since I hear slight grinding with that one. Lo and behold the smallest wear marks on the side that turns out towards the clutch. So out came the Dremel to take that edge off enough to hopefully give free movement when lever pulled. Also took some more off the clutch cover cause the clutch plate tabs were just sightly scraping the cover. Added another oil groove where it was removed on initial install. Tuned Stella should be fine now as it wasn't having clutch issues aside from the faintest grinding noise.

Now I gotta get the p200 out of that frame and onto bench so I can replicate this mod and double check the case beam isn't causing issues. Stella cases have a much smaller case beam that is not anywhere near in the way of the larger clutches.

I would never have even noticed this wear on the arm, nor would have ever thought this could have been the issue with noise.
You can see small rounding marks on left side of arm.
You can see small rounding marks on left side of arm.
Took that edge off enough to give space
Took that edge off enough to give space
Oil groove back
Oil groove back
@safis avatar
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1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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@safis avatar
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
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Location: Veria, Greece
UTC quote
Sean, what kind of washer (thickness) have you got behind the clutch?? The SIP Ultrastrong is the same as the BGM Superstrong and both have copied the MMW clutch (or maybe MMW makes them). On my P, I only machined the cover and took a bit of the oil "splasher" that's on the cases, above the clutch. Never had any grinding or slipping issues or had to use a cover spacer...

This is from my T5 but my P's is exactly the same...
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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