Modern Vespa

Nothing picture worthy. I replaced the front brake shoe set, stiffened the seat prop rod and added some protection to the battery to prevent chafing.

Several rides, nothing bad to report. My friend rode it and loved it, so that is good. Well over 100 miles now.

So, EmVeeTee made me some 3D printed badges and I painted them up. Fortunately he gave me his test badges so I could play with sanding and painting them.

Black spray paint first, then silver brush on.









Test fitted one of the test pieces. I used 3M trim tape with a heat gun conform it to fit the legshield.


Once dry I will put on the final good badge.

Those look great! Nice painting.

Like it, you can try a ink roller also for the silver.



https://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/frame-indian-embossed-emblem-painted.16409/

I tried a variety of soft to firm rollers, but even sanded it was not a good finish. A brush came out best.





Still, it looks good to me, and the bike is a decent 5-10 footer.

Jim, could you talk a bit about how you registered your bike? I'm in Canada and we have different rules for bikes and motorcycles. I was following your thread on endless sphere.

I have a p200e I recently bought without motor that I plan to convert to electric. I'm wondering what your top speed is and once you figured out the swing arm, how hard would it be to get an experienced welder to put one together. I'd be looking at your drawings for sure.

I am fortunate that I registered the bike before I converted it. That said, in VA, the 1981 is considered an antique, so no inspection needed, therefore no need to declare it an electric motorcycle. Even if I did declare it, VA law says it is a scooter, considered under 50cc, so no need to license it as a Motorcycle.

The swingarm is not overly complicated, once you figure out the needed dimensions.

Not to scale, but accurate:


My top speed so far was 62mph, but I can only prove 60mph

I'm reading up on our laws, and I'm not sure it can be done so easily. The fact it has no motor as is may make it difficult. Conversions need to be signed off by an engineer. We also need inspections every two years.

Would you say the cost to convert is much more than finding and restoring a working motor? I feel like the wiring is ok on this, as it looks like the only thing done to the bike was removal of the motor.

It was a great price at 350$ cad so I couldnt refuse it.

My main experience is bicycles, ebikes and ebike scooters.

Different country, or even state, different rules. In most US states a 1981, or any bike over 25 years old is considered an antique and does not require inspections.

As for cost, I am confident that buying a 2 stroke motor, rebuilding it completely, and adding any missing parts, would be less than an electric conversion.

That said, it would just be another Vespa. It really depends on what you are looking to get from it. If I were you I would talk to your inspectors and engineers and see what they would require to make it legal.

Added one more badge:

Made some changes that _Gonzo_ suggested, and I went through the Kelly manual and made a ton of adjustments, including his suggestions.

All I can say is holy shit. It is a rocket off the line now, even with my fat ass on it, and no odd noises. No time today for an extended ride, but I am betting it will go even faster than 62mph, and get better miles. It is 100% improved, and way more fun to ride. It nearly pulled itself out of my hands the first time I nailed the throttle. NOT exaggerating!

Thanks so much for your help -Gonzo_!

I recorded the new settings, and will display them for all soon.

Nice to hear this update. Very cool of you to share knowledge and configuration details. 8)

Wow, very cool! I used to work for a company that makes swimming pool vacuums and they had a fleet of 3D printers for making prototypes. To make them waterproof, we would mist the 3D printed parts in methyl ethyl ketone, which slightly melts the top surface of the plastic and turns that grainy layered print pattern into a smooth shiny surface. You can achieve the same effect by putting some fingernail polish remover in the bottom of a jar, putting the jar on a hot plate, and suspending the part in the jar for a minute of two.

Interesting concept!

Thanks!

Finally had a chance to get in another ride. It was a beautiful day around the city, so I puttered around, trying not to go WFO on every take off from start.

Start Stats:




Stop for fun:


End stats:




42% battery use at 21 miles. No reason I can't do 40 miles on a charge. I wasn't overly gentile, and you can see that I did a nice average, and though I wasn't going for top speed, I still did 56mph, just puttering around town.

Overall I am quite happy with the results. Smooth and quiet, and plenty of power.

Replaced this, which barely worked:


with this, that works much better. Everything is correct except I have not reset the battery percentage yet.



By attaching it here and feeding the wires forward, the hardest part.


Most is hidden by this.



This thing is a ton of fun around town, easily keeping up with DC and VA traffic.

Very cool Jim.
Looks good and work is tidy.
Looks like the perfect grocery getter - and what a change from what you bought to restore.

Amazed how well this turned out. Hate it but can appreciate all the time and effort. The piles of cash and lots of studying shows.
Is actually pretty cool and not slow at all. Others will follow.

Thanks, it has been fun. I am sure I am not done. I am already thinking second battery for more range and a disc front brake.

Definitely not for everyone, but there has been a lot of interest on other forums. Money wise, more than rebuilding the original motor. I have $3200 in it, including the bike and selling the motor. Not too bad. I have seen a couple go for north of $5K after conversion.

Well done. I started doing a bunch of research so I could do exactly this and landed on your thread. I'm basically going to follow your recipe since its been proven to work. I'll be doing this to a Stella 4 stroke so I'll have much more room to work with.

Glad to hear it's fast enough for you, I'm similarly sized and it would be nice to be able to ride it without feeling like a slug. I have a Zero SR, and thought this would be a great bike to build for my wife since she misses her old scoot.

Feel free to borrow any ideas I listed, some I borrowed from others. Also feel free to ask any questions you may have.

Thanks,

Just for fun. Older version:

Beautiful day for a ride around the town.

The VespaLectric begins a new chapter. As Jim contemplates his next electric conversion adventure, I made the drive to the nation's capital yesterday to take possession of the VespaLectric, and become its new caretaker.

I took it for a short test ride while there, and can definitely say that this thing is properly quick off the line! The seat definitely does not have enough grip to hold me in place when accelerating full throttle from a stop, or slow speeds. I had to put my knees together in front of the seat to lock myself onto the bike to do full throttle accleration w/o sliding backwards.

Thankfully, the test ride was short, as I needed to get back home, because the BMS decided to let the smoke out, thankfully only about 1/4 mile from Jim's home, as my car and trailer had all his vehicles blocked in, and the key was with me (d'oh!).

When Jim was havin the issue with the BMW doing to sleep an hour after coming off the charger, the guy that made the battery had some not-so-good advice, to short the charge lead through a circuit breaker. This likely damaged the BMS, but, didn't kill it completely. It decided to wait until I was riding it to die completely -- Murphey strikes again!

Jim, being an upstanding ADVRider inmate is going to procure another BMS and ship it to me. So, I'll be anxiously awaiting its arrival, so I can do a proper ride on this very cool resto-mod Vespa.

I'll continue the thread with some ride reports, and whatever modifications I do to it. I'm contenplating doing something to leverage the Kelly controller's analog regen braking input.

I came up with a little work-around for the BMS problem. Don't do this at home, I'm a "trained professional."


I bypassed the power switching of the BMS. This, of course, defeats the safety shutoff of the BMS in the event voltages or temperatures are out of wack, so, I do NOT recommend doing this. Also, notice that is only a 10 AWG wire, rated for 30A, so, I made sure to not use too much throttle.

I took it out for a little 4 mile ride. I did 54 MPH at one point. The quiet is amazing! More later when I receive and install the replacement BMS.

New, meet old/new.



The VespaLectric is definitely quicker off the line than the GTS250ie. The GTS250ie has a higher top end speed.

I am using this SOC (state of charge) chart for 72V Li-ion batteries for % SOC (it must be correct, it came from the internet, right?).


For some reason, the Daly BMS app is not properly showing % charge, but, does show voltage, so, I'll use that.

I did a proper speed run this morning on the VespaLectric.

Ride stats:
Distance: 8.56 Miles
Average Speed 36 MPH
Max Speed 61 MPH (GPS, indicated was 55 MPH).
Initial charge, 81.5V, 90% SOC
After ride, 73.6V, 56% SOC.
Battery use, 34% (about 982 Wh)

Much of the ride was at an inicated speed of 50 MPH, which is likely closer to 55 MPH, as 55 MPH indicated = 61 MPH on the GPS.
I was NOT light on the throttle. The point of this ride was to have fun, and feel the performance. It is defintiely quicker than
my GTS250ie up to 45-50 MPH.

Just as a test, I turned the regen braking up to 50%. The ride had several stops, and braking (to slow down for turns) points. I used pretty much no mechanical braking on the entire ride, except the final few MPH when the regen doens't do much. 50% is too much for brake-switch activated regen, as it is binary, all on, or all off. I'm definitely going rig up some sort of regen control for the analog regen input, perhaps activate by a thumb lever on the left, ala MotoGP .

Power delivery is very different than an ICE engine. I experienced this with my test ride of a Zero SR-S as well. Instant torque off the line that pulls strong and then tapers, where an ICE engine builds torque to a torque peak anywhere from 3k-8k RPM depending on the type and displacement of the engine, and then tapers slightly to the HP peak, then falls off more rapidly.

As much as I love the sound of my Moto Guzzi and Ducati 90-degree V-twins, and the satisfaction of clutching and shifting, the electric Vespa is very satisfying to to ride. The sound of only the wind in my face (oddly, the 3/4 helmet is quieter than any full face I have) is very relaxing. I love to ride my motorcycles fast. The E-vespa is very enjoyable to cruise at 40-55 MPH; very calming and relaxing. It is a definite middle ground between my E-bicycle and my motorcycles.
I am actually seeing where I may end up riding it for more than just errand running. I will likely be my goto bike for when I don't have a lot of time for a ride, and just want to get out on a country road for a short bit to clear my head.

Range should be about 40 miles if I can refrain from enjoying the off the line torque so much, riding it hard, it is more like 25 miles. I definitely think that I'll be adding a second battery. A second same-sized battery will double the range to 80 miles taking it easy, and 50 miles having run. That will also make it usable for my commute, which is a 42 mile round trip on fun back roads, or 36 miles in primary roads with speeds up to 60 MPH. I don't want to rely on recharging at work for the return trip, in case I want to return home early.

Another ride, quick stats:
23.4 Miles
31.6 MPH Moving Average, some stop and go for the first 5 or so miles, the rest at 40-45 MPH, mostly, some > 50, max 56 MPH.
Starting voltage: 82.5V (95% SOC)
Ending voltage: 70.0V (40% SOC)
Total battery capacity used 55%.

Extrapolated range, 42.5 miles, for "reasonable riding". This is pretty much spot on Jim's 43 mile range prediction.

I put my phone with a GPS app running in a map pocket on my sleeve and made mental notes of actual vs. indicated speeds on the speedo. The speedo largely reads 5-7 MPH high, no matter what speed. So, at least now I have a reference, and know how fast I'm actually going at any given time.

Some more observations:

• When not accelerating, riding this feels a lot more like coasting down a big hill on a bicycle at 40-50 MPH than riding a motorcycle or scooter.
• Regen braking at 50% triggered by the brake light switch is too much. Normally don't brake that hard for normal stopping, so, I found myself on and off the brake a lot when stopping, so, I backed it down to 33%. Even that was too much, I think I'll put it back at 25%, where Jim had it when I picked it up. I definitely want to setup some sort of analog control for the regen, that would be ideal.
• I turned regen completely off to feel what the brakes feel like w/o out. The front drum brake is completely inadequate. To quote Jay Leno on his video on one of his old Brit bikes, "You know how modern bikes have anti-lock brakes? We'll this one has anti-STOP brakes". I will be upgrading the front to a disc brake over the winter.
• This is really fun to ride
  

Just ordered one of these: https://www.scooterwest.com/px-stella-rear-rack-for-top-case-px29.html

I did an out and back on some rural farm roads. I turned around at 13.4 miles. It was getting close to dark, and I
know that Jim ran the battery out at 28 miles once, so, I didn't want to push it beyond that.
Ride Stats:
Starting voltage: 82.8V, 95% SOC
Ending voltage: 60.4V, 0% SOC
Distance: 26.7 Miles
Moving Avg Speed: 37.6 MPH
Max Speed: 60 MPH

For most of the first 3/4 of the ride, I was doing between 45 and 50 MPH (GPS measured), with occasional 55 MPH, and
one runup to 60 MPH. As the numbers show, I used the whole battery range.

I had to baby it up the hills for the last 5 or so miles to keep the voltage above the 57 volt BMS cutoff.

So, I think I've established that a safe operational range for it with this battery is about 25 miles. The battery monitor is a very nice feature to have, I highly recommend it for anyone considering an EV conversion. Keeping an eye on it definitely helps manage the battery level and range, and likely will
prevent being stranded with no power, as knowing how much power is left lets you manage that power, and back off if need be to make it home.

More observations. At 40-45 MPH up even gentle hills, the motor draws 80-120 amps (6-9kw). If this motor
only put out the "rated" 4KW, this would not be very fun to ride. Thankfully, it can handle a lot more, and the battery can provide the juice. It draws 180-220 amps up steeper hills if I maintain my speeds (up to 15kw!).

Based on the ride data that I've compiled thus far, I'm consuming between 80 and 100 Wh per mile. This particular ride, it was 100 Wh.

For anyone considering an EV conversion, there are three things to consider with your battery selection. One is of course, voltage, the next is the instantaneous AMPs it can provide, the final one is Ah (Wh = Ah * Volts). I'd use 100 Wh per mile as a baseline for range. If you're going with the "4kw" QS205 motor, then 72V 38ah is probably the minimum sized battery that you'll want.

I'm very seriously considering a second battery. I might even just try my hand at building it myself.

I'm up to just shy of a 100 miles that I've ridden it, and I'm still having a lot of fun on this scooter.

I've ordered a left thumb throttle to use for analog regen braking control.
[IMG]https://electricfatbike.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/left-thumb-throttle-500x500.jpg?w=584[/IMG]

I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on the Grimeca front disc brake conversion.

Start:
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End:
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Is the balance function turned off? If so do you know why? I wouldn't worry to much about getting to 100% SOC you would need to charge to 4.20 volts per cell.

Balance is still turned on. I did charge to 84V (4.2/cell) the night before, but, then ran it down to 82.8V with the scooter's lights when I didn't have a chance to ride it right away, as storing Lithium batteries at 100% is not good for longevity.

I do understand that BMSs do not balance until you get to (or near) 100%.

I'm going to have consider cooling the battery on this build. Up until today, the highest temperature I've seen externally on the pack has been about 43C (110F). Being
a large, dense pack, the temperature of the cells toward the middle must be much higher. I may need to put some thermocouples in the middle of the pack when I open it up
to replace the BMS.

High temps for most of the week have been in the mid-60's (F), but, today was 75. I went out for a "spirited" ride today, about 14 miles of most 50-55 MPH, so, was working
the motor and the battery hard. When I got back and open the seat to remove the pack to charge it, I noticed it was quite warm. I pulled out the non-contact thermometer, and it was 55C (131F). From what I'm reading, you want to keep Lithium cells below 60C. I'm going to venture a guess that the inner cells were much warmer than this.

The motor was also much warmer than it had been on previous rides, also about 55C, vs. about 43C on cooler days.

I definitely have some concern about riding it in hot weather (85-90F).

The battery pack lives in an enclosed area of the frame with no airflow, so, not ideal for cooling. Unfortunately, to get fresh air in there, I'll have to cut holes somewhere

Maybe just putting a fan in there to circulate air around in the space will help a little, but, I doubt much.

What have others that have done EV conversions on Vespas done for battery cooling?

I think you're breaking trail on this one, but adding even minimal spacing between cells along with some active cooling (i.e. fans) it's going to be the way to go.

If the plastic plate in the bottom on the frame is still there, removing it should add a little flow. Past that, I'm not in a place to try and calculate necessary airflow to move the heat out of the battery compartment.

I'm already considering building a second battery. If I put the two in parallel that'll divide the load, reducing the heat generated by half. That will certainly help too.

You'll want to put them in parallel.

Yes, that is what a meant. It is late, I'm tired.

So, I run a similar setup to yours (4K motor, 72v battery, Kelly controller) and I live in a much warmer climate than you (Dallas). I typically don't run the sustained speeds that you are doing as you are exploring your new purchase. But I don't worry too much about battery temps. Mine is mounted in the gas tank cavity like yours is, and there is some airflow under the seat. You could put in a fan, and run it from your 12v converter, to further cool this area but I'm not sure you will need to unless you run your scooter WOT all the time. Just take the cover off your tank area or poke some holes in it and you should be fine

I think you know that most electric cars have a small cooling system (and heaters) around the batteries, but they have sustained highway speeds to contend with, and are a level of sophistication higher than what we're doing here.

One topic you mentioned, but didn't dwell on in your post is motor temp. Electromagnets, like a hub motor, reach a saturation level where performance drops until the motor cools down. Your controller has a temp setting, and if you spec'd it, your motor has a thermistor to monitor motor temperature. You can buy fins, or a product called Statorade, to cool your motor. Some people swear by it, I've never tried it. You drill small holes in your hub motor, inject it in, and it stays inside because it is a magnetic fluid and is attracted to the magnets in your motor. Lots of temperature tests show it works--just food for thought.

Glad you are having fun with this project. Keep posting!

One more thing... Last night when I was hashing things over in my mind instead of sleeping, I had a thought about something else to review when looking at your battery temperature issue.

In your Kelly Controller user manual (yes, I know most would rather lose a testicle than read a manual) there are settings for motor current (called phase current) and battery current. These are expressed as percentages. Phase currents are based on battery current, and a good phase/battery current ratio for a hub motor is 1.5X - 2X battery current. Your controller, using PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) converts battery current to phase current. Phase currents are much higher than battery current when accelerating, but become the same at mid-throttle. If you are really bored sometime, there are graphs depicting phase current/battery current through the throttle range. Phase currents are the "torque" you feel on take off that makes you scoot back in your seat.

OK, that's a lot to take in, but I told you all of that so I could tell you this: I'm sure your phase and battery currents are set at 100% in the user program. Since you have conquered the milestone of speed, perhaps you could play around with these two variables to try to maximize your efficiency. Any energy spent in excess of what is needed is lost to heat. So if you get these two settings right, you should see the same performance with lower temps on both your motor and your battery. It will extend your battery life and keep you from spending more time and $ on an exotic solution.