Modern Vespa

So I've got a friend who I'm trying to convince to - like me - buy a Vespa GT or GTS.

To which he responded: "Why" since he's done some research on the Vespa and the Piaggio sites and has noticed that the Piaggio's are usually less expensive for comprable engine sizes and wheel base - and he points out that the actual wheels are often larger on the Piaggio's.

To me the answer is simple - that there is so many decades of nostalgia tied up in the Vespa brand - that there is so much difference stylistically between the Vespa's and Piaggios - and for me the Vespa simply looks better.....

So with that - I pose the question:

What's the main difference and what are the virtues of each??? Is it just an emotional difference? A subjective difference??

To me, Vespas are purely emotional. If I just wanted a two-wheeled means of getting around, in all honestly, I probably would have gone to a Honda, Yamaha ro Suzuki dealership.

Yep...I'm going to have to cast my lot with Mongoose...he's right. Purchasing a Vespa, at least for me, was primarily an emotional decision. You just can't beat the styling of the scooter. I've had the GT200 and now the GTS 250. And although I really like the GT200, the little bit of extra power and responsiveness that the GTS has really made a difference to me (no offense to GT owners...it is a tremendous scooter as well!).

As the owner of a Piaggio Fly 150 I have to stick up for my scooter! I do like the look of the vespas but as a first time scooter buyer I wanted something that was reliable, quick, handles well, and wouldn't break the bank. After speaking to the Vespa dealor he sealed the deal in my decision between a Vespa and a Piaggio. He told me how the Fly has the same engine as the LX but is lighter weight, has 12 inch wheels which are also much wider/more stable, is more nimble and the fact that really helped is that it is about $800 cheaper. Someday I may switch to a Vespa but I love my Fly. Vespas do have a wider range of after market accessories but it all comes down to what you want to do with your scooter. If you want to have the reliability of a Vespa with a bit better handling and a lighter weight model, the Piaggio may be the one for you. If you want a scooter that you can accessorize, that has the Vespa "it" factor, the lifestyle image, etc than the Vespa is the perfect scooter for you.

I do feel like Piaggios are now kind of the new "unique" scooter. I haven't seen any other one's out on the road here in Seattle but do see A LOT of Vespas around. Kinda makes it fun to know there aren't a lot of people around with the same scooter as me. It is nice to know that the inside of my scooter has the same history as the Vespa.

That being said I think they are both a great buy but it all depends on your needs and your capabilities. I'm in my early 20's and wasn't comfortable spending over $4,000 on my first scooter...who knows though, I may be back here as a full fledged Vespa owner a few years down the road though!

Good luck to your friend. You can't really go wrong when you're chosing between such solid models.

There is a premium built into the prices of Piaggio's Vespa line of scoots. Piaggio does offer better price/performance economic combinations outside of the Vespa line. If you want to either save money or to purchase the absolute best performance, Piaggio will be the logical choice.

That said, I still went straight for the Vespa GT 200! I feel, like many others, that the Vespa styling is simply 'the' classic scooter design. I love the retro look and feel, yet modern technology, of my Vespa. Many times I am out on my Vespa and people will approach me and strike up a conversation about my bike. I am unsure if owners of Piaggio scooters have the same experiences. I think that non-scooter owners are probably more familiar with the Vespa (in a vague sense), than with other scooters.

I do think that Vespa probably hold value better than Piaggio, though. There's more of a cult following to keep vintage Vespa's going, and I really don't think that is a likely future for a 30 year old BV.

P.S. BTW no offense to Piaggio riders. You have fine scoots. I just prefer the Vespa.

Firstly let me state that I mean no ill intent to owners of Piaggio, they are essentially Vespas in different clothes. The reason I chose my GT200 over a less expensive Piaggio is this... as someone, somewhere discribed them as "Tupperware". lol That said, I would not hesitate a second to give one a wave. Also at times treating my GT like a piece of valuable art wears a wee bit thin at times. Piaggios have to be pretty durable and body parts not prone to rust. I've never been one to pamper my vehicles other than maintanance and mechanical awareness. But the GT sure has me wanting to make sure it has a nice shine on 'er before heading out.

Rick

There are things about two-wheelers that are quantifiable (e.g. HP-Weight, braking from 60-0mph). There are things about two-wheelers that not quantifiable (e.g. style, the "feel" of the ride).

The non-quantifiable qualities are what make each individual's decision personal. Some feel the style of the Vespa is worth the price premium to them. Others feel it isn't. They're both right - because it's their scooter and they should decide based on what's important to them.

I've ridden the BV200 and GT200. I've ridden the ET4 and the Fly 150. We ended up with the GT and ET, because they appealed the most to us. But the BV and Fly are perfectly good choices.

Like they say: "ride your own ride"

The Fly looks like a great scooter, and I really like the Typhoon. I like the big tires on the Typhoon...looks like a blast to ride, and at just under $2k, the price is right for a Piaggio product.

I'd probably put it this way; for me, I had to have a Vespa. If my son wanted a similar scooter, I'd probably save the money and buy him the Piaggio since he hasn't had the life experiences to develop the sentimental attachment and sence of romance that I've attributed to the Vespa. (But he's getting it quickly!!!)

ROMANCE

That's it! Piaggios, while very fine scooters, just aren't as romantic as Vespas.

I probably will never have the opportunity to own a Ferrari, but a Vespa is just as good, in terms of 'it'.

I really considered the Blue Fly 150, nice looking. I wanted something a little faster. The Aprilia Scarabeo 250 and BV250 were pretty nice. I liked the Aprilia styling better than the BV. But, the BV 250 has fuel injection and the Aprilia 250 did not. The GTS was the right fit for me. I figured re-sale would be better on the Vespa.

Tom

Not to dispute, but the last time I checked, the BV250 was carbureted, not fuel injected. I got caught out on this because the Piaggio literature was amgibuous and so I assumed the BV250 would be fuel injected like the GTS250. I made the mistake of posting this assumption on the VespaPiaggio Yahoo group bbs as fact and somebody knowledgeable, ***cough Bryce Ludwig cough***, outed me on the mistake. Hey Bryce, thanks for keeping me honest!

I'll put it this way..

Vespa is like a vantage VW.
It is an emotional buy.
There are a lot more history with Vespa than there is with Piaggio at least because Vespa has made such a name for itself.
You can find multiple accessories and "antique" things that are Vespa just like on a VW that you can't find on the Piaggio.
I would say that a Piaggio scooter is the "sportier" version of the Vespa.
I have a Piaggio Bv 200 and my GF has a Vespa ET4 (150cc).
I was able to really customize her Vespa which I am not able to do with my Bv, but you know what?
That's fine with me!!
I like the sportier look of my BV, but I must admit that the GTS is one beautiful scooter.

I agree that it's an emotional thing and possibly a resale value thing. In my inexperienced opinion, Vespa and Lambretta are the Harley and Indian of the scooter world. The name does help resale. If you strictly base it on performance and inital cost, then I would also be looking at bigger Hondas and maybe the Vino 125. I love just going out in the garage and looking at the Vespas....it just makes me feel good.

Why does everyone think re-sale...wouldnt you rather own something that you like the way it looks and rides. Rather then worrying about getting rid of it before you even buy it. I think scooters in genral hold there resale.
I thought that the fly rode better then the ET or LX, though i still like the style better of the LX and would chose that. The BV is nice if you like that MC feel.
just me though...

Piaggio of course!!! -Yeah, check out my avitar. Actually I like them both. To be honest, I like most of the Itailian scooters. There just seems to be something about them- especially the Piaggio/Vespa models. I'm sure this was the feeling Jess got when he bought his Moto Guzzi. I was actually at a very large "powersports" dealer today looking at modular helmets and I just don't get as excited over the Japanese motorcycles and scooters as the European brands. Don't get me wrong, the Asian bikes are top quality, (I drive Japanese cars) but they don't have the mystic. So in the end, between the Piaggio and Vespa it's a matter of which model you want, not which brand.

jrsjr,

Thanks for pointing out that the BV250 is not fuel injected. That means
that I made the right choice by buying the GTS

Tom

This was an easy assumption to make owing to the fact that Piaggio published precisely identical specs for the BV and GTS motors, omitting the one line about how the BV was aspirated. And I wasn't being facetious when I said "last time I checked," because I'm expecting Piaggio to bring out a fuel-injected version of the BV, but that's just my wishful thinking. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

BTW, if anybody has any inside scoop on this matter, I'd be very interested to hear. PM is always good.

If the BV were to come out with FI on the it would you consider it for the Cannonball? Just wondering the $ might be better than the GTS, Beale.

As long as you are riding, thats what counts!

There are things I like about both lines of scooters, but I went for the Vespa because I dig the retro look. I have checked out the Fly150 a couple times while drooling over the Vespas, and it too looks like a fun ride!

That would depend on whether somebody was interested in buying the Cannonball GT for, say, $3000... Any takers?

I ended-up with the Piaggio (LT150) since I wanted the ability to go fast, when needed: the smaller wheels of the traditional Vespa just seemed squirrely and skittish at speed to me.

But emotion did play into the decision: I looked at a Kymco People 150, but I think I just liked the idea of an Italian scoot; too many viewings of Roman Holiday, or something... yes, I know it was probably made in Taiwan or somewhere very un-Italian!

(hey, that was my first post, and it didn't even hurt!)

Fa bene! Congratulazione!

Rema welcome to the site, and congrats on the new scoot!! Sounds like you are ready to ride, and enjoy, Beale.

Interesting to note that the Italians -- the arbiters of all things romantic --have no problem purchasing Piaggio's!

See this thread:

LA TOP 20 DEL 2005:

LA TOP 20 DEL 2005
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To them, scooters aren't toys. They are a viable form of everyday transportation appliance. Romance doesn't matter much on an appliance. No matter what Kenmore tries to convince me of, I will never be in love with my fridge. Same reason why Americans will buy very bland sedans from Toyota or Honda. It does the job and is comfortable, and hopefully has a low cost of ownership.

Oh, but in Italia everything has emotional meaning. I would bet you couldn't leave Mal Pensa airport without seeing an argument over a soft drink, a piece of fruit or a parking space. (I've seen all 3 within about 20 steps. )

We Americans may have lost our emotional connection with the world around us but I don't believe our friends in Italy have!

True, the Italians are a people who find passion in even the smallest of things. That said, they still appreciate good deals and functionality. They are also pretty cutting edge over in Italy, and as such, I've heard retro stuff doesn't do as well over there.

So many of the cultural, geographic, and transportation parameters are different between Italy and the USA that it's somewhat ridiculous (but fun) to compare.

Either way, Italians speak Scooter and speak Style arguably better than anyone else in the world... no matter how they use scootering.

And while the Piaggio brand may not resonate as loudly here, in their native land Piaggio scooters are respected and, yes, loved...

[along with quite a few *ahem* Yamaha, Peugeot, Kymco, Honda and Suzuki scooters.]

Buy what you like... step outside the local mind-set, the local consensus.

PS
The Camry's biggest flaw is it's fundamental decency -- never mind that it's decency is ten times better than the decency of a Mercedes ten years ago. What disturbs most is the very thought of... mere decency, mere sufficiency... mere enough-ness.

Off topic info:

I was looking through some production statistics (doesn't everyone?) and noticed that 94% of all the motorcycles made in Japan in 2004 were under 250cc!

Isn't that a bit of a mind blow considering what we see in America!

Like Europe, Japan has a very structured system that encourages small cars and smaller displacement motorcycles.

The lions shares of scooters in Europe are under 125cc. Not only can drive such a scooter with your normal (car) driver's license, there are big tax incentives as well.

What's interesting also is that there are relatively large scooter bodies mated to 125cc engines... and some 125cc engines make a whole lot more power than others.

And in Europe there are whole magazines dedicated to the under 125cc class.

Peugeot even makes a 125 that is SUPERCHARGED!!!
You get 250cc power!!

everyone keeps mentioning the emotional aspect... I mean sure. .Vespa's are just good looking bikes w/ a long history.. but theres one simple reason why they cost more...

The all steel chassis!.. and don't even try saying that it doesn't make a difference.. it's a stiffer frame do to the WHOLE actual body of the bike being the frame.. vs a tubular steel frame inside.. with plastic fairings clipped on the bike... it's more durable.. if ure vespa goes down hard on its side.. u get dents and scratches vs cracked body panels (ever see those chinese delivery guys w/ there duct tape bodywork?).

Make no mistake.. pull out the bucket under the seat and look at the thickness of the steel and the reinforcing... it's like an old 50's car.. they just don't make vehicles like that anymore... and thus.. the extra cost...

another minor thing if ure buying new... ALL vespa's include roadside assitance free w/ it's warranty period.. and you have the option of extending the warranty an additional 2 years for an extra fee.. only the top of the line piaggio bikes include roadside assitance..and there is no extension...

while a Piaggio is definitly a good bang for your buck.. it always annoys me a little when people say that a vespa is just more expensive b/c of it's name.. it IS.. a higher quality bike...

rant done.. grin..

Despite that, the most profitable motorcycle distributor in the world is American Honda.

Steel chassis? Yes. Steel body? No! The GTS I just gave back last week had quite a bit of plastic. It's damn nice plastic, but not "all steel." The inner leg sheild, glovebox, headset, and front fender are all plastic. That doesn't make it bad, but there are too many perpetuating the myth of the all steel modern Vespa. It's simply not true. And if it comes down to just having a steel chassis, then that could be said of many scooters.

A monocoque chassis can be very stiff. So can a properly triangulated tube frame. Look at the Italjet Dragster if you need an example. And modern Vespas have both do contend with. If your front fender hits something in cold weather, it will crack. If you lay your bike down and damage your headset it will gouge and crack. It looks like it wouldn't be easy to bang up the inner leg shield and glovebox on the GTS and GT, but if you did, it would suck to fix it. The downside of steel bodywork is that it will rust. If you scratch it, your zinc primers are can actually create more rust in a scratched area in a shorter time than on metal that wasn't primed with sacrificial anode primers. If you don't fix and seal gouges right away, you're asking for big trouble down the line.

Additionally, new Vespas don't have removable cowls anymore. That was nice because they could be repaired or replaced easily. It is also good to have damage occur to non structural elements of the vehicle. Did that on my test GTS. The steel didn't seem to be of a thicker gauge than any car built in the last 10 years. Not very helpful when you're out in the middle of nowhere. Happened to a clubmate who was riding through Nebraska on her GT200. You get better coverage with AAA. With the GTS vs a Fly 150, I'm totally going to agree. If you pit the ET4 against the LT150, or the LX150 against the Fly 150, then you're paying more for a look, a name, and a little less plastic. There's nothing wrong with that, but Piaggio makes high quality products. I find it silly that people go on and on about how the steel construction is automatically higher quality than plastic. Plastic has some advantages and drawbacks, so does steel.

Plastic body panels aren't as cheap to produce as you think. The tooling for injection molding isn't cheap, and costs go up in an exponential fashion as part size increases, and if you have to make a mold that has more than 2 parts. If you're doing large, complex parts, then painting them, the cost savings really diminish.

When it comes down to it, the plastic/steel debate really is a wash. I wouldn't make a purchasing decision based on that factor. Find something you like the look, feel, and utility of. Assuming the after sale support is there, buy it and enjoy it. There are Vespas I would love to have. Other Vespas probably wouldn't win the race to my garage against comparable alternatives.

You get more than 250cc power with that engine. It is pretty sweet. The Jetforce Compressor has a 4 valve, liquid cooled, fuel injected engine made by Honda. I've ridden a bike with the naturally aspirated 150cc version of this engine, and it's sweet. With an aluminum frame similar to what a sport bike has, the option of ABS brakes, the Jetforce Compressor looks like a very serious machine. The price estimates from the former importer of Peugeot scooters came out around $5500. That would give the GTS and a lot of other 250cc scoots a run for their money.

I have sat on Vespa's, but never ridden one, and find the 'feel' of all
that plastic-accented steel to be truly seductive. Whatever's there, I
do like it too.

At the same time -- I sense something slightly disengenuous about this
equation: that steel is superior because it's steel,
damn it. It is an anachronistic and prejudiced way of looking
at things -- almost... er... racist.

It's kind of a silly arguement: Steel is ok for a monocoque body
but once it's employed for a structural tubular frame it
becomes inferior?

And my Majesty has a controlled fill aluminum frame under it's
removable, light-weight, dent resistant panels... tell me again...
what's so inferior about that?

As you just quoted.. I didn't say all steel body.. i said all steel chassis.. so.. um.. i don't know what u were correcting there.. yes indeed the Dragster is very stiff.. but the Dragster is almost completely just a frame.. and a major exception.. it was specifically designed to be superstiff as it's a performance scooter.look at old italjet velociferos.. what few are sstill on the road.. and tell me A.. that they were stiff.. b.. that there plastic bodies were made to last... the fly150 the typhoon and many if not most honda's and yamaha's.. are built to be cheap functional commuters.. they are as i already said... a good bang for ure bucks.. but they are NOT as stiff.... as an dragster.... or a LX/ET... Having completely abused my bike... as well as having had it knocked over nearly taken out by taxi's and driven it rather roughly off road ... I still stand by my they are built to last comment.. yes.. there is plastic to contend w.... though even if u took off every bit of plastic on the bike.. u would be left w/ a bike that still looked like a vespa.. u take off all the fairings from any other bike and u've got what? a honda ruckus? My bike has a Huge dent on one cowl and a decent amount of dings on the legshield and other cowl.. as for russt.. i had the paint literally scraped off the side of one legshield and a cowl.. and I don't have any rust on it.. b/c i immediatly did something about it... a little sandpaper and some spray paint primer and black paint.. and if your not looking for it.. most people don't realize I did it myself... and yet.. when parked on the street i still get people coming up to me asking me questions in love w/ my bike... do u honestly want to tell me that if i had been driving around an LT150 for the last 3 years and put the abuse i've put on my et4.. i'd still have a bike in one piece? ure living a fantasy if u do.... Well.. at least theres one comment you made that i can agree w/ you on.. *smirk* First off i said it was a minor thing..

second.. it's extremely useful in riding around in normal city/town use. which suprise suprise is actually what scooters were designed to do!! (for the record i also take my bike everywhere.. so i'm not saying plenty of people don't.. but thats not the scooters original intended purpose)

Third.. of course a company who's sole purpose is to offer roadside assistance would be expected to do better then some secondary warranty offering.. if not.. then i would expect AAA would have gone out of business by now....

Finnally.. even if it's not the.. "I'll pick u up in the middle of nowhere offering you were hoping for".. it's still FREE roadside asstance.. something.. again.. no other line or company offers.... Plastic and steel do each have their advantages and drawbacks.. but for the reasons i state above.. I still think absolutely you are paying for a better machine.. INCLUDING the LX and ET range... Huh? what.. so steel isn't more expensive to produce.. so the whole WORLD just started making things in plastic , Cars, Bottles, Scooters, hell.. the new versions of Transformer toys.. b/c they wanted to come up w/ some new way to destroy the enviorment and make some new material just for the fun of it?!.. of COURSE Plastic is cheaper!.. the Original Tooling may be expensive.. but once ure pumping out part after part.. it is absolutely cost effective! it's the whole reason why everything is bloody plastic now.. now your just making shit up man.. i'm sorry..

as for winning the race to your garage.. man enjoy ure plastic scoots.. i have nothing against them.. i still say.. YET AGAIN.. they are a good bang for your buck.. they are decent bikes.. but dont' make up this fantasy where Vespa's are just taking advantage of their name and not doing something different to justify the extra cost.. there is a DISTINCT difference between a Vespa and a Piaggio or a Honda or blah blah...

It's all in the body.. design.. AND construction... end of story...

My main point is this.. scooters.. in general are made to be a cheap alternative form of transportation.

You look at a modern sports bike and it has the same structural design of a Modern Scooter.. however.. it is a higher end product geared towards performance.. so the frame is stiffer.. the bodywork is tighter.. everything about the thing is high end and well crafted. there are certainly scooters that follow this train of thought.. but there are also many that are cheaply made.. that is the whole point!..

Make em as cheaply as possible b/c people are buying this as a simple and dare i say the word again CHEAP form of transportation.... higher end products like most maxi scoots do not generally follow the same lines.. or exceptions like the Dragster in the smaller CC range.. but the bottom line is you get what u pay for... and when looking at most smaller cc bikes... the reason why they sell at such a lowered cost is simply b/c it cost much less to make..

Hell when the Vespa started .. it was the Volkswagon of italy.. it was the vehicle of the people for the people.. a cheap form of transportation.. but when other manufactures came in and started competing at a lower price point w/ thier (gasp!) plastic scooters.. stealling away the market in europe w/ their low prices.... what did Piaggio do? They competed.. but rather then taint the vespa name w/ their even cheaper construction methods.. they took the cue of Japan.. and made these plastic bodied scooters that could be manufactured at a lower cost.. and called them Piaggio instead of vespa.... the same care was not put into the product... they couldn't.. it's the only way they could sell the bike at a lower cost.... If Steel Chassis are not more expensive to produce.. why are there not more companies still making them? I know of two.. and both come from india and are basic amalgamations of Vespa Tooling and Design... Plastic is cheaper people.... I dont' understand how people can argue this...

it's like my friend who buys his jeans at Kmart for half the price of my Levi's swearing they are the same quality... but has to buy em twice as often.. shrug.. I have nothing against his Jeans.. but dont' tell me there isn't a difference..

Ah yes, cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.