Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
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Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:21 pm quote
nothing really to update cause its been cold as F and snowing for like a month straight since I got back to NYC.

All I gots is it was 50F today and snow finally melted enough to finish moving, and while I was near my garage I ran the stella to clear the gas that was sitting in the carb for over a month out. Smoked myself outta the garage!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KoT3cjGKidHiMZfu7
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2241
Location: california
Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:46 pm quote
ahhh.
2T
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:33 pm quote
First warm day off in months while being back up in NYC. Planned on taking the stella out for a ride all day. Turned out to not want to run! Kept dying at idle or without throttle. Ran great under throttle. Figured it was idle jet or iidle circuits clogged from old gas. Took the jets out and cleaned them up then threw back in and still same problem but worse. So I admitted to myself I needed to rebuild the carb and hit it with ultrasonic cleaner. Turns out there were a bunch of metal flakes in the float bowl. Guessing leftovers from when I drilled the float passage and just blew it out with compressed air. Guess it didn't clean it well enough.

Also changed the gearbox oil first time since rebored cylinder went on. Lots of metal flakes on the magnetic drain screw. Also guessing a result of using the dremel in the garage with the engine cases open and only blowing things out instead of a full wash after. No gas smell on the gearbox oil.

Got a new seat finally. That was the success for today! My old seat lock was f'ed up and the peg was too long for the seat lock so the seat was resting on the peg instead of the seat feet which made the lock break and just became a huge pain to get the seat open every time. This new one has no lock! just a big rare earth magnet on the seat and a metal plate instead of the seat peg on the frame. no more problems opening the seat and surprisingly the seat is way more stable and situated so it doesn't move around and feel flimsy anymore.

NISA 2020 sport seat (too lazy to remove the rack/bars so I mounted it over the rack.. which means I need 20mm coupling nut to act as spacer from frame to seat base plate so that the plate won't be dangling and start to bend from my weight.)

Since I took the carb off to clean/rebuild, I also took the reed block off to cut my own pedals finally. That will go back on with new malossi pedal material suggested by Jack. And before I put everything back on, I'm gonna drain and strain the gas tank cause the metal flakes might be from the tank (possibly had the tank open while dremeling?) and I'll remove the tank to re-send the tach wiring correctly to the vape dc ignition since the tach hasn't been working since my rebuild last fall/spring. I'll also take the fast flow fuel tap apart and make sure there is no flashing inside restricting flow as i never checked that before installing












30mm bolt with two nuts snug up against the top plate to act as a hard stop for the base plate to sit on

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: California
Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:50 pm quote
Good to see this update Swiss seat looks great. Getting a better idea on the reed system now. Might be drilling my carby again too what drill size did you end up using?

Who's the hottie in the short shorts?
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:22 pm quote
the short shorts is the cover of some sip style catalog they threw in a shipment. was using that as the protective base for drilling reed petal screw mounting holes instead of drilling into my bench top.

Can't remember what my carb was drilled to, would have to scroll back in the thread somewhere. I think possibly 2.1mm?

Only on it for 20 min while the bike kept stalling, but the seat is really comfortable. More so than I expected cause its not as thick as the previous one I had. But I also don't feel like I'm sitting on a booster seat anymore.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2241
Location: california
Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:44 pm quote
Lucky for all of us - there is joy in wrench turning on a sunny day too.

Seat looks nice.
Good choice.
Comfort is a bonus.
Tank clean seams wise.
Get a little video going of it so we can hear when you get it sorted?
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:05 pm quote
Well I'll be doing a little more tomorrow. I figure while I'm doing the tach wiring i was thinking of trying to get a wire for the gsf dyno board set up in the glove box. Wondering if i can use the same tach wire which i think i can? Also does it matter for the dyno board if i pull off the red or the white wire? Figure they are just reverse signal of each other so it shouldn't matter.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2241
Location: california
Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:53 pm quote
Christopher is resident expert - I only play one on TV in Hollywood.

SIP says the white wire sends the signal - and who am I to argue.

1. Can you run a wire from white to your tack and tap that in the glove box for the board. Yes.
2. Will it be a good signal? No idea - some people seam to have luck with that. You will know if your tack reads nicely. if it jumps all around - the board is not going to work from that signal.

Mine was all over the place.
I always suspected cross over from other wires.
If I were to do it again - maybe I'd try some shielded wire.
Normally they are in multiples - but it would be okay to run that too - and it can be found cheap.

Guitars and nice speaker wire use some kinda shield I think - aren't you music business adjacent?
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:09 pm quote
Yes i work with audio gear and yes that wiring is best for something like this as it is shielded, but as far as electrical its like i have a mental block that refuses to Just connect the dots.

My tach works fine when connected properly. It was working on the old stator, but i hooked it up the same way and didn't realize that the ac from stator was independent from the dc out to bike wiring so it wouldn't send the proper signal to tach. One of those basic concepts i overlooked and didn't think about! When you install a dc stator and bridge the originally ac line on the bike with the dc to make it all dc, you cut all that wiring off from the ac ignition signal, and the tach was originally tapped into the bike ac system. So instead i will be sending the long tach wire back through the frame to connect directly at the ht coil to the ac from stator. Luckily the gauge comes with the shielded wire that works for this purpose so i don't need to go pull out any of my fancy expensive audio wire for that connection. Although i will use some audio wire to create the dyno board connections to board and phone. Good thing I've got some leftover jacks from last time i made some audio cables!

The trick for my digital tach to work without jumping around was to use resistor plugs.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:00 am quote
Warm again today. Before work at 3, i got out there and took the gas tank out and pulled apart the fast flow fuel tap. There were metal flakes inside it but no flashing on the holes, so either the casting needed to be cleaned up prior to install and the flashing broke off while running and clogged the carb, or i was using the dremel with the gas cap off and flakes from grinding made it into the tank. I think it was the gas tank open situation cause i remember making that mistake and putting the cap back on when i noticed.

I ended up spraying the tank out with the hose in the backyard and then blowing it out with compressed air to dry it before reinstalling the tap. Took the lml fuel sensor out and bent the float arm slightly as I've been trying to fine tune the stock fuel gauge so it reads accurate. It was reading empty when half full when i got it. So I bent it last time and since then, it's been reading full when the fuel tap electronic reserve light comes on. So i split the difference and hopefully it's closer so that it will read reserve when the electronic reserve light comes on. Then the stock fuel gauge with be calibrated correctly finally.

Also spent an hour and finally fed the tach wiring through frame to engine side. I'll hook that up tomorrow and hopefully be back in the road with no issues but everything outstanding that was driving me nuts finally resolved.


Sip fast flow with reserve light. Think this is the same as the omg one that is now on their site





Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:55 am quote
Coffee filter strained the gas out of can back into bike and there was some small amount of crap strained out. Everything back together and running. Fuel level gauge is accurate now, but the sip fuel tap with digital reserve light is inaccurate. The digital reserve light comes on at half tank of gas instead of quarter tank like the stock gauge. Either this is by design or is just inaccurate. Either way, i find it more helpful that they are set at different points than each other because now i have more granular view of the tank level.

When the reserve light comes on i know I have half a tank, and when the speedo fuel level indicator reads reserve quarter tank i know I'm at actual reserve quarter tank. So is two warnings at half and quarter! Previously with the bike fuel gauge inaccurate and depending on just the reserve light i did notice it would come on way earlier than expected and i would generally fill up at approx half a tank which drove me nuts cause my mpg is all over the place with jetting not finalized so i would just fill up as soon as the light came on.

Other than that, digital tach is working again wired through the frame to the ht coil. But now my tach is off by about 500-1000 rpm approx. It's not a setting in the tach but just off. Before it was accurate. I'm wondering if either cutting the included tach extension wire shorter is the cause, or of soldering on a connector instead of using the included snap connector is the cause? My thought is either one of those has changed the resistance which the digital tach is calibrated to.. leading to slightly off reading?

Idle with separate tach is at 1000-1300 but the digital tach reads 1600-2000 at idle instead. I've also emailed koso north america to see what they suggest regarding the wiring and inaccuracy, but figured I'd propose the question here as well.


Filtering the gas one last time. Hopefully this cleans out my gas can as well


Fuel reserve light on glovebox just went off at the half tank mark on the speedo gauge


Full tank. My calibration is close, but just a hair below full. Good enough for me.


Filter had some dirt, etc


Trying the polini filter mount and a k&n filter instead of no filter through the frame bellows


Digital tach wiring.. could this be culprit of slightly off reading?



Last edited by swiss1939 on Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1683
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:13 pm quote
The tachometer isn't reading resistance, its reading cycles or changes in voltage, that's why it needs AC. Guessing where your picking up the signal from is noisy giving you extra spikes that look like cycles or changes. When I looked at that spot with an oscilloscope there was lots of noise. I avoided using that lead, and moved on to another wire.

Koso has a few filters to help clean the noise up.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/rev-signal-filter-koso-sip-rev-counter-speedometer_KOBA0040
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:52 pm quote
Well.. the mv good luck charm has made it around to me today. Got it running earlier and it sounded great on center stand. So i threw all the plastic bits and seat back on si i could go for a ride finally.

Pulled it out to the sidewalk and put it on stand and let it run while i got ready. Right before i left i checked the turn signals to make sure everything was still working (nothing should have been off as i haven't changed anything related to the dc wiring). This is where i had first signs of trouble. Blinkers weren't working at first but then started. This I've seen many times when i do changes to electronics and it sorts itself out. But this time it was very intermittent. One side was working, the other wasn't. But then they all started dying after working for a minute. Headlights worked both high and low. I figured maybe the battery was not charged cause i have been leaving the electrics on for a while without running as i was checking the fuel gauges and the tachometer for an hour or so. I gave it throttle for a minute and i noticed the blinkers get better and brighter. Until they seemed fine again.

So having confidence in the electrics again thinking it was just battery issues, i jumped on and took off. Right away i noticed idle jet felt rich and boggy when it was fine before all of this. Figured it was just cause i changed to the h&r carb box filter combined with probably not perfectly same air mix screw setting. So i ignored it and was planning on just riding as is until i got back to garage. But a mile down the road from my garage it started dying again. It was all over the place, felt like it was dying at idle one moment, and under throttle at other times.

I kept riding around and restarting it every time it stalled and died to see if i could figure out if it was a fuel supply issue, a jetting issue, or an electronics issue. Sometimes it would die if i sat at a light and didn't give it throttle to keep the idle higher. Other times i would be giving it half to full throttle and the engine would feel great one moment then just die the next as if it ran out of gas or lost compression. I was always able to get it running again after a few seconds, until i got back to my garage. Then just as i pulled up to garage it died for the last time but a very weak death like a month old flabby balloon whose air finally gets let out like a wet fart. Ha!

Kick-starting it just feels weak compression now. So i stuck the camera in the cylinder and couldn't see anything. Figured I'd take the cm22 method and just pull the head off to see stuff. The head itself looks good but wet. The piston crown also looks good like it's starting to get the carbon buildup the way it's supposed to. But there is some cylinder marks like a seize. I believe it's from the previous soft seize, but maybe they just got worse?

Part of me thinks idle is just too rich now and that's it, but that wouldn't explain it dying under throttle. So the other part of me thinks the vape ignition or stator are having issues now? Not sure where to begin. Cylinder, jetting or ignition?

I have a new set of rings i can throw on. I have a spare vape stator plate i can swap on to see if it's that. I also have a spare vape dc regulator i can swap on to see if that helps?

Or could it be the t connector i tapped into the red wire on ht coil cut too deep and is creating continuity issues?

I'm holding off on pulling the cylinder completely off until i get some suggestions.

Btw this is the first time head came off since the rebore and vape variable ignition and soft seize happened. No air leak at the head.. no oil where it shouldn't be.







Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:05 pm quote
Thanks Christopher, I'll probably check out that filter because it's either tapping there, or the same signal before the dc regulator, and i can't see that mattering much given it's the same signal.

As far as my current main issue, i am leaning towards thinking it is the stator dying. When i first installed this vape ignition last winter, i wired it up wrong and got some crazy buzzing on continuity coming from the stator. Thought i killed the stator but when i wired it correctly, everything ran fine so i left the stator on. I bought a replacement just in case. Maybe, it's just finally dying from the initial damage?

I'll probably throw new rings on and re hone the cylinder since i have head off and hope for good compression, then swap the stator and see if it runs fine. If that isn't the problem then I'm not sure.

Btw here is how far off the tach is. I wrapped the other tach wire around the koso tach wire so it's reading the same exact signal. Has to be something with the digital gauge.



Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2098
Location: Florence, OR
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:55 pm quote
Hey Swiss - what carb do you have on there? I only ask because that K&N air filter could be the culprit and your carb is not breathing well enough.

It's amazing how much airflow is impeded by filters being in that spot.

Just a wild ass guess, but I personally wouldn't trust it from past experience - not on the P200 or the 150, but on a 4t Bajaj. I couldn't get it to run properly because of the f&cking filter media. It WAS supposed to breathe better than anything, but obviously that wasn't the case.

Hopefully it's something that easy...

And for the record - the Scooter Gods are smiling down - on all of us, and want us to succeed, so keep at it
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:12 pm quote
qascooter wrote:
Hey Swiss - what carb do you have on there? I only ask because that K&N air filter could be the culprit and your carb is not breathing well enough.

It's amazing how much airflow is impeded by filters being in that spot.

Hopefully it's something that easy...

And for the record - the Scooter Gods are smiling down - on all of us, and want us to succeed, so keep at it
QA, interesting take on the problem, not a solution I would have thought of ever. I'm not convinced that is the case, simply from the behavior. It runs fine under throttle for differing amounts of time. Sometimes a minute or two, other times it will die out like it ran out of gas and kinda chug and peter out to a stop. Other times it will do that on no throttle. If it were the filter media not breathing, I would assume it would happen in the same throttle position every time. It also stalled like this before putting this filter on a few days ago when I thought it was just clogged carb.

But I am all for simple solutions and like the unexpected solutions, so I will absolutely give that a try when I get the head back on. And for the record.. im on a 24/24 si carb.

And you just gave me another thought.. I did just change reeds to custom cut malossi reeds. Maybe those are having issues and that is why there is no compression or random stalling? I used a new sheet of reed material and cut it to shape with a box cutter. When mounted, I could not get them to sit perfectly flush with the reed block so there was no gap. I tried mounting both directions with the malossi logo facing out, and in. Both directions left a fraction of a mm gap at the loose end of the petal.

Too many possible solutions. Which one to start with?!
Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2098
Location: Florence, OR
Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:58 pm quote
I'd swap out those reeds with a known working pair, and give it another go.

It's always a bitch when there a bunch of variables in the mix.
I drove our 30' RV to SoCal a while back and it started stuttering 1/2 way there. A ton of possibilities.
I chose to only change the wires and distributor cap & rotor.
Worked like a charm. But what I forgot that I did also was foil taped the EGR tube which was leaking air like a bellow.
When I changed the plugs, it started stuttering again.
Turns out I disturbed the foil tape and it was burning off the holes.
I replaced the EGR tube and problem solved.
So was the problem the EGR tube all along??? I have no idea, but it's running great now, and that is the key!

So I KNOW you'll find what is making this not run properly. My bet is the home made reeds...


Big ole Ford 460 7.5L in that baby...

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:16 pm quote
I'll start with the most likely culprit.. something I changed.

First, rehone cylinder and replace rings since I have the head off. Don't think that is the problem, but its a task that I wanted to do since the soft seize but never felt like taking it apart to do before. Second, I really think its an electronic issue with stator or CDI. So I'll remove the tach t connector and repair the red wire on the CDI by cutting it at the point where the t connector sliced into it, and resolder it back together with shrink tubing so that wire can be eliminated as the cause.

If that doesn't work, then I have another Vape CDI for the P200 project which I can quickly throw on and check to see if it fixes the inconsistent running issues. I believe it sounds similar to when chandlerman had a vape variable cdi die. Its an easy test given I have a spare. If that doesn't work, then swapping the stator.

If none of that works, I'll try the air filter as QA suggested. But I don't want to make any jetting related changes until I rule these electronic issues out.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: California
Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:58 am quote
wow Swiss dude put the bellows back on we know this works. Not sure about the reeds never seen one in my hand perhaps yours need a precise cut to fit and seal on the plate? Thought folks used Boyesen two stage reed? Stella's are somewhat of a rare bird here in California they were not legal here. Assume that will keep you busy tuning the carb again. Just looked at Boyesen oh no need to stop. Wonder if they make one that fits my old Malossi?
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:12 am quote
Well I didnt do a hone and new rings yet cause I wanted to narrow down the problem before making another change like that. I removed the air mix screw plug on back of the carb box and way more fuel came pouring out than normal. This to me says its running a lot richer now than before.. on same jetting.

So I threw the head back on and ran it to see if I could figure it out a bit more. Was a real pain in the ass to start up even with carb box top off. It felt really rich. Closing down the air mix screw got it started and running. But once I got it running with the lid off, I noticed a ton of fuel blowing out and spraying everywhere with the lid off. So at this point, Im thinking the jetting is way richer now as a result of either one or combination of two things.. new malossi reed petal and the carb clean.

Possibly, the carb clean removed all the aluminum flakes that were clogging the carb and my previous overly rich jetting was providing enough fuel to overcome a partially clogged carb and run right, but once the carb was truly cleaned out of any obstructions, now it is just too rich. The other theory is going from boyesen two stage reeds to a single malossi reed has made the jetting richer because of the increased area of the petal opening at idle with the single malossi reed which takes up the full reed block opening vs the smaller of the two boyesen reed petals which is the only opening on idle with those reeds and is like a quarter of the reed block opening.

Regardless of what change caused the carb to be running way richer, I started working down on the idle to see if I could get it to start and run better. I was on a 40/120 idle at the start. Now I'm on a 55/160 and I think it is close. But at this point of messing with the idle jet, I started noticing a very strange behavior that kinda goes the opposite of what I thought I knew about jetting. The engine would run on richer idle and main jet, but be very sluggish at idle like it was very rich. Main jet would run fine.. but it had very slow throttle response until it was fully on mj and then it would go fine. Here is where the strange carb behavior started, which has me stumped. I closed down the air mix screw on the idle circuit to lean the idle out a bit to see if I could get faster throttle response. Closing down the air mix screw would cause it to idle slightly better, but on giving it throttle, the engine would die out. This is only on a single turn of the air mix screw from 2.5 turns out to 1.5 turns out. So making the idle leaner, would cause the bike to stall when given throttle.

I backed it out to 2.5 turns and then tried another option.. leaving the 55/160 idle jet, but lowering the mj from 130 to 125 to make it leaner. Again it ran better but still had the sluggish throttle response when coming off idle into throttle. So again I closed the air mix screw down to 1.5 turns and same thing.. throttle caused it to run better but still had slight sluggish response to throttle. So I put it back to 2.5 turns out, then went down to 122 MJ. This time the bike stalled out real fast on throttle given even at 2.5 turns of air mix screw.

So the carb is rich and needs leaning, but going leaner causes the bike to stall out either on idle or mj throttle. This makes no sense to me. My assumption is if its rich, going leaner would cause it to idle faster, or throttle up faster, not cause either to stall.

Anyone have an idea what is going on with that?

I believe it is a jetting/carb or reed petal issue and don't think its an ignition/CDI issue now , but am at a loss on how to tune the jetting cause everything feels like its upside down in terms of response to changes.

Two videos, first one of the original jetting 40/120 idle and 120/be4/130 mj to show the blowback of fuel out of the carb on throttle. It's really spitting out.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/unWja6qrRXWQq31z7

Second one is of the leaner 55/160 idle and 122 mj showing how the bike wants to stall immediately on any throttle given.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nXJm9NkpZQRvkBSHA

EDIT: On thinking about it for the last half hour.. I have a guess that possibly the be4 atomizer is the issue? It is causing the transition point to be way too rich and killing the engine when throttle given? So I should go back down to a be3 and restart jetting to find all new setup that runs right?
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:11 pm quote
Well now I'm back to questioning stator or cdi. Just watched an fmp video on blowback like I'm having and he says blowback is caused by one of three things.. stator, cdi or exhaust clogged.

I guess my exhaust could also be clogged after running rich for the past year and having so much oil pouring out the exhaust mounting point.
https://youtu.be/OhX6zE8LmFA
Enthusiast
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 94
Location: Texas
Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:11 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Well now I'm back to questioning stator or cdi. Just watched an fmp video on blowback like I'm having and he says blowback is caused by one of three things.. stator, cdi or exhaust clogged.
He also mentioned bad rotary valve clearance. This would allow air to come out of the intake when it is not supposed to. Probably the same concept for a reed valve that is not fully closing/sealing. I think I remember you working on the reeds already though.

Interesting FMP video though, I was not aware those other things could cause blowback.

Also watched your blowback video. Like zonks Scoob, that is a lot of fuel coming back at you.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: California
Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:11 pm quote
Maybe a combination like you said restrictive reeds and restrictive air filter? The Polini filter connection reduces the opening to the air box not sure why that is good and warm inlet air canít be better? Why did you change out the boyesen?
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2755
Location: London UK
Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:37 pm quote
Could be the reeds. Looks more like when the float level is too high. Sure the float needle isn't leaking? You wouldn't be the first.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:42 pm quote
I'm leaning towards a reed problem. Changed out the stator and no difference. Next step swap the boyesen reeds back in.

Possible for the reed material to be too thick or is there a directionality to the material which if upside down would prevent it from opening properly?

Who knows.. I'm gonna pull them and do experiments to see if reversing material helps, and possibly ordering thinner malossi ones. But if flipping the material doesn't work then I'll revert to boyesen for now.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:11 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Could be the reeds. Looks more like when the float level is too high. Sure the float needle isn't leaking? You wouldn't be the first.
No clue. Fuel isn't dripping out of carb. I did just order a few spare needles so i can swap one and see if it helps.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2241
Location: california
Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:06 pm quote
Swiss -
Video looks like it is flooding with gas on 1/8 throttle - which is kinda weird.
I would want to have confidence I wasn't fighting with trash in some of the passages before I did anything else - since that was the root of your prior issue.

I would take some stranded copper wire and unstring it so I had some little fine wires - and I would run that through every passage along with some compressed air.
This would include removing the mixture screw and running out that passage also.
That would be my starting point.

I'm skeptical your exhaust is clogged overnight.
Your rotary should be fine.
This feels carb related to me.

Can you reiterate the history here briefly?
Was it fairly well jetted before - at least reasonably?
What changed? Did you do anything that could have gotten rid of an air leak?
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:41 pm quote
I've already blown out the passages and sprayed it with carb cleaner after half hour in the ultrasonic rotating it in different directions. I do not believe it is clogged carb anymore.

This is not rotary valve engine so that it's not the problem.

Summary.. removed the carb and reed block. Cleaned and rebuilt the carb. Swapped boyesen reeds for custom cut malossi reeds. Removed gas tank, drained and strained gas. Disassembled the fuel tap cleaned reassembled. Hosed down the empty gas tank. Drained it and dried out with compressed air. Reassembled everything with same jetting. Only difference being the malossi reed and everything fully cleaned.

This was all initial actions. Running issues immediately after these actions. Since then, I've swapped stator for new, changed idle and main jet for leaner. Problem remains and possibly worse.

I'll report back tomorrow when i swap the reeds back. I'm wondering if maybe the screws holding the reed petal to the block have loosened causing larger gap in reed to block which would render them useless.
Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2098
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:53 pm quote
You're killin me! YES, check the reed block, put in old boysen (known) reeds, and ditch the K&N and put back the bellow.

Reeds first though!

But, in the grand scheme of things...what do I know...

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2241
Location: california
Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:32 pm quote
Quote:
Swapped boyesen reeds for custom cut malossi reeds
Carb is solid then.
Second qas's comment on reeds.
Highly suspect you will go back to prior.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:19 am quote
Problem solved. Catastrophic malossi reed failure. Piece broke off and corner of reed got stuck up inside reed block towards the carb.

Dilemma... Probably a chunk of reed petal inside crank case. Rotating crank feels smooth and don't see any chunks of anything from what i can see, but doesn't mean there isn't a chunk sitting inside crank area somewhere.

Do i split cases to clean it out? I know the answer is yes, but wishing it werent! Part of me thinks cause it was running, it might have passed the kidney stone through to the exhaust and if i check the exhaust for it i might find it.







Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2098
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:29 am quote
That sucks dude. Sometimes I find that just cause I can do something, it doesn't mean I should do it.

I'd be inclined to let that carbon fiber reed chunk get chewed up and spit out on the copious oil changes I'd be doing.

I wonder if it'd get ground up quick enough and expelled that way? Hmmm. I wonder what the experts will say...

Sorry this happened to you Swiss. But hey, at least you know it's not electrical!
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2241
Location: california
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:35 am quote
Other reed users can comment - Im sure they have eaten some reeds with time - and I highly doubt its a case splitting moment - but let's hear.

Suspect there is always some risk - but most will tell you to just keep driving and put new reeds in. Gonna come down to a judgment call.

Here is what the internets say: https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1235990-can-broken-reeds-damage-motor/


*edit - oh - and I would also think that just pulling cylinder and piston pin would allow you to wash out any particles accessing from top end. Spin and use gas and bottle brush to rinse out
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:48 am quote
Well I think the piece is small enough it would have just been sucked into the cylinder with the gas and been shot out into the exhaust. This would explain the couple little clear metal spots on the top of the piston.. when everything else was nicely carbon deposit covered. That was a riddle I was pondering earlier. Guessing it scraped the top of the piston when at highest compression/ignition.

So custom cut reed petals.. waste of time. Wonder how people do it without them breaking. I had to cut the petal small enough to not get stuck in the reed opening/gasket opening, but not too small to not have a sealing surface against the reed block. At the same time, I cut them by slowly scraping them with razor blade till it cut through completely. After doing that.. I noticed some fiberglass strands wanting to pull out.. so I filed the edge down just slightly to smooth it out and get rid of any microscopic loose threads. It did cross my mind that because of a cut edge wanting to fray, it would eventually lead to fraying and breakdown of the petal, but I did not expect it to be almost immediate. I also tried to reduce that from happening by using the natural edge of the reed material as much as I could, and using the natural uncut edge as the part of the petal that flaps open and closed.. so my cut edge was held tight by the screws.

Lesson learned and at least it wasn't a mistake that causes serious damage. Could have been worse.. like a reed block screw coming loose and falling into the crank case!
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2241
Location: california
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:51 am quote
Quote:
Could have been worse.. like a reed block screw coming loose and falling into the crank case!
It was a bell mouth screw - and only half fell in. The other half trapped the crank and stopped it dead in its tracks from turning.
(I used the rinse and pour method to empty out the case of the sheered half).
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:57 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
Could have been worse.. like a reed block screw coming loose and falling into the crank case!
It was a bell mouth screw - and only half fell in. The other half trapped the crank and stopped it dead in its tracks from turning.
(I used the rinse and pour method to empty out the case of the sheered half).
I didn't envy that!

Good news is.. when you make practically every mistake or have almost every kinda failure on your first engine, it makes chances of those happening so much less on every other engine. And my brain now has a large catalog of failure types and their symptoms from real world experience!

Way too damn cold again today, but later this week I'm throwing the boyesen reeds back on and running it to see if it runs fine.
Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2098
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:09 am quote
Looks like you got it! I still don't like that attached filter to the carb box.

Oh, and don't forget the locktite on the reed screws!

I'm glad you figured it out.
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2261
Location: Veria, Greece
Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:27 am quote
Typical for Malossi petals. After only three customers that came back with problems, after I had installed kits, etc. on their scooters (2 Runners, 1 NRG), I only used Polini from then on. Green and blue combos. Never had one fail on me. Glad you found it...
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2990
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:09 am quote
Safis, good to know it wasn't something I did, but just crappy reeds. Did you split the cases for those engines when this happened or just put new reeds on and call it a day?

I'm dealing with "madness" right now so I'll be a little busy this week, but I'll get back in the garage at some point in my free time.

At least I can work from home this year!



Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2755
Location: London UK
Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:35 am quote
Can't believe they failed so fast. maybe the reed stop was too wide. If you have any material left I would try again. Watch a YouTube video of how to cut them.

Would be surprised if any reed was still in the casing. So light it just flies out.
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