Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:59 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:59 am linkquote
Wooohooo - Parts are on their way! Thanks ScooterMercato!

They should be here by Tuesday, so I need to clean some case surfaces and get ready to put the engine back together (again) and get it rolling!

I hope the spare tire doesn't bug me where it is - I'm 6'3", but I like to ride slid way back. We'll see. Thanks for the heads up FM....
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:37 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6220
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6220
Location: So Cal
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:37 am linkquote
I'm 6'1 and have long legs and the behind-the-legshield spare holder on my Super (8" wheel) allows plenty of knee room. Oddly, the same holder on the GL with a 10" wheel feels cramped. Neither interferes with the brake though.
Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:38 pm

Hooked
1959 Allstate w PX Engine
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 391
Location: Los Angeles
 
Hooked
1959 Allstate w PX Engine
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 391
Location: Los Angeles
Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:38 pm linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
I'm 6'1 and have long legs and the behind-the-legshield spare holder on my Super (8" wheel) allows plenty of knee room. Oddly, the same holder on the GL with a 10" wheel feels cramped. Neither interferes with the brake though.
Looks like the 8" bracket was designed so the wheel tilts up against the leg shield bend. The 10" versions I've seen are vertical (?)
Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:45 pm

Addicted
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 627
Location: Philadelphia
 
Addicted
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 627
Location: Philadelphia
Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:45 pm linkquote
Yeah the 10" one is pretty much vertical
Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:39 am

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5450
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX*2
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5450
Location: Hustletown, TX
Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:39 am linkquote
Looks ace!
Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:28 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:28 am linkquote
The new Mazz crank came in! I went ahead and replaced the seals and bearings while I was at it.

I've got the case halves together, and hopefully will finish it up today.


Differences in Mazz vs Pinasco crank


The other side


Tapped on the bearings


Removed the old seals and installed new seals, with loctite 638


Cleaned up the case halves with alcohol, put RTV on the gasket, heated up the case halves, and put it together, and remembered the kick start gear :)


Installed the piston, cylinder, then pressure tested. Success!


Installed the clutch


Installed the stator and flywheel


Oh shit moment. I was torquing down the flywheel and around 40 ft lbs I feel it slip. I thought the crank stripped, but it was the 1/4 inch reducer I was using. Phew!

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:56 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:56 am linkquote
I need some help from "the Collective".

To recap - had pinging noise, like piston slap happening.
Thought it was crank big bearing - still slaps with new crank and new piston.
Realized I'd honed the cylinder with a three legged stone hooked to a drill - three times. Maybe I bored the cylinder so much that now it was enlarged to not fit the piston properly.
Pulled the engine yesterday and measured the cylinder and piston.

Difference between the two is .78mm. I'm thinking this is too much. Is this too much clearance?

Piston size 62.30
Cylinder wall: 63.08

I measured for an hour, so this is pretty accurate (within .02mm) at the top, bottom, and through the exhaust port, or in the middle.


Piston


Cylinder


Such a good looking engine...

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:33 am

Hooked
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 320
Location: OC
 
Hooked
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 320
Location: OC
Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:33 am linkquote
I *may* be corrected on this, but as I understand it the TOP of the cylinder is the narrowest part, so likely it is more sloppy as you go down. Not sure about the tolerance part.

I read .005 somewhere for 2 strokes, so yours seems a *bit* out of spec and maybe slappy. Especially since you are measuring at the top.
Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:42 am

Molto Verboso
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 1144
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
 
Molto Verboso
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 1144
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:42 am linkquote
Based on the P's factory manual (I know it's not a P but close enough) 150 clearance is .225 and the 200 clearance is .215. I would guess your piston to cylinder clearance should be somewhere between .215 to .225. Need to measure below the piston rings on piston and further down the cylinder like in the manual.

http://www.scooterhelp.com/manuals/VNX1T.VSX1T.service.manual/VNX1T.VSX1T.serv.man.r.pdf Page 48.

Hope that helps.
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:05 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:05 am linkquote
Put the piston in the bore about halfway down, then measure the gap with a pair of feeler gauges. That'll give you better results. At least I hope it does, because that's how I do it.
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:20 am

Hooked
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 320
Location: OC
 
Hooked
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 320
Location: OC
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:20 am linkquote
I bought a bore gauge. Seemed prudent.
Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:01 am

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2594
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2594
Location: Veria, Greece
Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:01 am linkquote
If these indeed are your measurements, it's like you've gone to 3rd oversize (usually 0.2mm - 0.25mm per step). Maybe you should have the cylinder and piston checked by a shop just to be sure...
Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:25 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:25 am linkquote
Thanks for the input guys!

SaFIS - you're probably right. I called Matt at ScooterMercato and he doesn't think using a honing stone would take that much off to cause it to slap that much. I'm currently checking ring gap to see if they are too tight, which could cause too much pressure, and the slap.

Frankly, I'm pissed off, bummed, and cannot quite believe I could f*$k it up that much with how little I rode it. The new piston, crank, small end bearing should've took care of it.

I'm gonna check around locally to see if there is anybody that can hone this cylinder.

In the meantime, I might just buy a new kit....
Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:12 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:12 pm linkquote
So I checked the new ring gap (which I didn't do when I got the new piston, totally spaced it), and it's HUGE, like I'm surprised it'd start huge.

So I called Matt - again - and we came up with a game plan. I'm going to put the old rings in and give it a go.

If it still slaps I'll buy a new kit. Or if I can find someone local, have the cylinder honed and get a new piston for it.

Hey, at least I'm not splitting the cases this time, so that's good....


New piston gap. Looks like Pinasco messed up these rings...


Old ring gap - appropriate at . 20

Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:20 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:20 pm linkquote
qascooter wrote:
Frankly, I'm pissed off, bummed, and cannot quite believe I could f*$k it up that much with how little I rode it.
Meh. That's nothing. Call me back once you've
- Blown up a motor on the stand while test running it and deciding to see how high it'll rev
- Blown up a motor dialing in the main jet by mis-reading the jet and installing one 10 sizes smaller than you intended
- Blown up a motor when a wrist pin circlip comes loose a week after rebuild
- Blown up a motor because the washer you found on the floor wasn't the one that you weren't sure fell in the intake
- Blown up a motor because you're an underskilled idiot
- Blown up a motor because a cylinder stud came loose on the highway
- Blown up so many motors you have literally lost count...

Just look at all those things you have to look forward to!
Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:28 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:28 pm linkquote
Ha! Thanks for making me smile and lighten up on myself
Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:37 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:37 pm linkquote
Glad I could help!

And I even forgot some of my most exotic explosions
- Blown up your motor because you cracked the cases with monster tuning and a bad gear change
- Blown up your motor by shattering the cruciform getting on the highway
- Blown up your motor by shearing the axle in two
- Blown up your motor by shearing the clutch woodruff key

Those are more Boss Level motor explosions, though.
Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:47 pm

Enthusiast
'62 Allstate, '62 Vespa VBA
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 92
Location: Tacoma, WA
 
Enthusiast
'62 Allstate, '62 Vespa VBA
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 92
Location: Tacoma, WA
Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:47 pm linkquote
Could you have it NiChrome plated and rebored? I had a Suzuki cylinder done a couple years ago by usnicom.com. I don't remember what it cost though. I'm not sure how these come stock, but it could make the cylinder tougher than stock.
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:31 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:31 pm linkquote
noexit wrote:
Could you have it NiChrome plated and rebored? I had a Suzuki cylinder done a couple years ago by usnicom.com. I don't remember what it cost though. I'm not sure how these come stock, but it could make the cylinder tougher than stock.
Hmmm, I'll check it out - thanks for the tip!
Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:50 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:50 pm linkquote
qascooter wrote:
I need some help from "the Collective".

To recap - had pinging noise, like piston slap happening.
Thought it was crank big bearing - still slaps with new crank and new piston.
Realized I'd honed the cylinder with a three legged stone hooked to a drill - three times. Maybe I bored the cylinder so much that now it was enlarged to not fit the piston properly.
Pulled the engine yesterday and measured the cylinder and piston.

Difference between the two is .78mm. I'm thinking this is too much. Is this too much clearance?

Piston size 62.30
Cylinder wall: 63.08

I measured for an hour, so this is pretty accurate (within .02mm) at the top, bottom, and through the exhaust port, or in the middle.
you can measure a cylinder with a set of dial calipers for a rough estimate, but that is really not the way you want to do it. you should be using what is called a "bore gauge." This will give you accurate readings though the length of the cylinder. . . and that is important. The diameter can change if there is a problem with the original boring of the cylinder and now with your honing.

When i bore a cylinder for 1st and 2nd over pistons, i am in the .003 ballpark.

Hope that helps.
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:03 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2655
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2655
Location: california
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:03 pm linkquote
Just catching up.
Good grief!


Don't quite understand how the rings could be so crazy wrong sized.
Working on these things is patience personified.

As for CM -
Quote:
Meh. That's nothing. Call me back once you've
- Blown up a motor on the stand while test running it and deciding to see how high it'll rev
- Blown up a motor dialing in the main jet by mis-reading the jet and installing one 10 sizes smaller than you intended
- Blown up a motor when a wrist pin circlip comes loose a week after rebuild
- Blown up a motor because the washer you found on the floor wasn't the one that you weren't sure fell in the intake
- Blown up a motor because you're an underskilled idiot
- Blown up a motor because a cylinder stud came loose on the highway
- Blown up so many motors you have literally lost count...

Just look at all those things you have to look forward to!
eh hem. Fire in the garage...
Just sayin.
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:28 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:28 pm linkquote
Thanks Gick for your knowledge. It helped.
charlieman22 wrote:
Don't quite understand how the rings could be so crazy wrong sized.
Big time nuts. It's like a set of 150 rings were stuck in the 177 box. They're even a different color, verses the ones that came with the original kit.

It was ordered directly from SIP through "The Market". If I'd of known that I probably would've ordered a Grand Sport. Live and learn...

Spraking of live and learn, I've learned a few really good things that I'll always do from this point forward:

1) Verify ring gap
2) Don't assume the factory gave me the proper stuff
3) It could always be worse - just look at CM1s "list"
4) I learned a few things, which is good. Better than knowing everything.

I alteady got the piston and cylinder reinstalled and pressure tested. Tomorrow i'll put it back in, and see what happens. It's always exciting cause you never know what can happen!


Ready for an engine...


I picked apples today. Apple Crisp here we come. It's great with coffee... Oh, and the tree is still loaded!

Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:47 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:47 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
As for CM -

eh hem. Fire in the garage...
Just sayin.
Which one?
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:10 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2655
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2655
Location: california
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:10 pm linkquote
At some point - I am going to just come to your area of the world to enjoy a cup of that coffee.
Always impressed with how tidy you keep the work area.
And - as you know - B62 is one of my favorites.

That ring gap is crazy.
Good reminder for me as I enter that phase.
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:31 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:31 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
At some point - I am going to just come to your area of the world to enjoy a cup of that coffee.
Always impressed with how tidy you keep the work area.
And - as you know - B62 is one of my favorites.

That ring gap is crazy.
Good reminder for me as I enter that phase.
You are welcome ANYTIME! I just got word that May 4 - 6th is the Oregon 100 Rally put on by the Top Dead Center SC out of Eugene, inland from here about an hour. It's a fabulous event and a good excuse to head on up!
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:38 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2655
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2655
Location: california
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:38 pm linkquote
Charlieman's calendar
(hopefully I will be done by then with my build...)



Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:04 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:04 pm linkquote
Most Excellent!
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:20 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:20 am linkquote
qascooter wrote:
Thanks Gick for your knowledge. It helped.



Big time nuts. It's like a set of 150 rings were stuck in the 177 box. They're even a different color, verses the ones that came with the original kit.

It was ordered directly from SIP through "The Market". If I'd of known that I probably would've ordered a Grand Sport. Live and learn...

Spraking of live and learn, I've learned a few really good things that I'll always do from this point forward:

1) Verify ring gap
2) Don't assume the factory gave me the proper stuff
3) It could always be worse - just look at CM1s "list"
4) I learned a few things, which is good. Better than knowing everything.

I alteady got the piston and cylinder reinstalled and pressure tested. Tomorrow i'll put it back in, and see what happens. It's always exciting cause you never know what can happen!
I bought a bore gauge, dial indicator and a set of cheap micrometers after finding a bent crank in my VW bus that the machinist said was good to go. Always a good idea to measure yourself. Stuff gets put in the wrong box and parts are sometimes out of spec straight from the factory.
Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:39 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2508
Location: Florence, OR
Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:39 pm linkquote
So I put the old, original piston rings on the new piston.

Chris came over today on this rainy day and we put the engine back in, and a fast flow fuel tap and no kink hose.

Slight tinging but nowhere where it makes me think "Shut it off, shut it off before it implodes!"

I'm gonna ride it until I deem it not right. At that point it'll be a new kit or machine shop home and a new piston.

Thanks everyone for your help! It's greatly appreciated!


New pressure test setup - directly into the spark plug hole and a big rubber stopper in the exhaust flange. Rubber under the carb box.

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