Modern Vespa

Hey RB - I'm digging the three speed too! It's like neutral is it's own gear when it come to shifting. Compared to the P200 anyway.

I can't wait to put the 150 cylinder in it. But since the Covid is still happening, I'm going to ride with the 125 cylinder until Chris and I get to compare again...

Thanks again RB for the pictures and sharing your knowledge. It's much appreciated!

Well, it was a sunny day, and my buddy Chris had some free time, so we went for an awesome ride around Florence and compared the changes I made to B-62 to his stock engine (with electronic Ignition though).

The comparison (both scoots 125cc):

B-62 - 1962 Allstate - 3 sp, box exhaust and 20/20 carb (points and condenser).
Rocket - 1964 Allstate - 4 sp, Original exhaust and 20/15 carb, elec ignition.

The last time we rode:
Dead even at WOT.
Off the line a tough call,
and hills - Rocket gets the nod...

This time:
WOT - B-62 gets the nod
Off the line, still a tough call,
hills - Rocket still gets the nod.

Overall, B-62 is breathing much better and that was the goal, to see how much a 125cc will improve with just breathing better. (pipe and carb).

Also, Rocket is sporting a smallie seat! So I got to check it out - I love the look, but it sure is nice to slide further back, so I think I might try out this long tail seat instead: http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Complete-Seats/LONGTAIL-LF-BL

Phase one complete!

On to Phase 2 - 150cc cylinder

So I got a new seat. It curves down the back a bit and fits a bit better. I don't like the standard springy seats because my butt usually resides right where the spring tower is. And this one looks good, to me anyway.

This is what I bought: http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Complete-Seats/LONGTAIL-LF-BL

Next up - Electronic Ignition, then
Pinasco 177cc kit!

Looks great.

Looking good.

Looks good QA!

Thanks guys - It's a cool seat and I'm diggin it so far. And it's not like I'm riding for hours on 8's.

Woohoo - Time to bring B-62 up to the electronic age. No more points and condenser, and funky balanced lighting.

I'm going to set it up so everything can be reversed if someone in 50 years decides they want it pristine and stock.

I got a Vape Electronic Ignition Kit AC, Static, no battery. Thanks David!

It's a pretty easy installation so far. There are a couple of things I ran into though.

Timing: Following the instructional video I couldn't get my numbers to sync up right. It turns out SIP's degree wheel goes from 0 to 180, both left and right, not 0 to 360. So that hung me up for a few. Once I figured out my lame brain figuring. The numbers came out perfect.

Regulator I didn't want to screw the regulator into the frame, and it needs to be grounded, so I drilled a hole in it and soldered a wire to the hole, creating a ground strap. Now I can Shoe Goo it to the body and not make holes.

Two things that don't exist in the kit are: A coil mounting bracket, and a junction box for the wiring that comes out of the stator. I've got both on order. In the mean time, I'm mounting the coil directly to the engine. I just needed to elongate one of the holes so it'd fit.

Next, the wiring...

Prepare for easy starting and bright lights.
Love B-62.
Fine machine.

Alright, I'm ready to connect the coil and regulator to the existing wiring and I could use some help.

There are three pictures below: The SIP wiring diagram, The wiring diagram from the manual, and the original junction block.

I'm assuming I'm going to tie all the light circuits together and plug them into the regulator. That would be the existing Blue, White, and Yellow wires to the Blue regulator. The existing Red wire is tied to the kill switch, so that'll go to the coil.

Does this sound and look correct? Has anybody else installed this kit? Any input would be appreciated. I don't want to fry anything unintentionally...

I've wired the DC version - and I have a battery and a bunch of stuff - which is to say - take it with a grain of salt.

That said - SIP's wiring diagram is straight forward.
All powered objects get power from one of the two blue regulator wires.
The other blue wire from the regulator goes to the stator blue wire.

Your red wire - because it is your kill switch - goes to what I believe is a blue white wire coming off the coil.

I think that's what you are saying - so that is a second set of eyes seeing it the same.

If you have any trouble, one trick is to basically keep the bike out of the loop - keeping only the coil wires connected, for a test start of the motor as a stand alone. But I doubt you will have issues here - looks all good from the cheap seats.

Thank you CM for the verification! I appreciate you giving it a look. Now to swap out the lights and wire it up!

Scott - just curious - are you going to try and run LED's off the AC system?
If yes - did you source some AC compatible LEDs?
If no - what are you swapping to?

Hey CM - I don't know yet but I figured I'd go out to SuperBrightLEDS and see what they have to offer that will fit the existing housings. Anything has got to be better than the 6v bulbs in there now.

Do you have any suggestions, specifically the headlight?

I think I'm just going to fire it up in the meantime with the 6v bulbs and see what happens.

Well - I went DC - which made all LED's friendly.
For headlight - I used this (its short which is good).
It's super bright - which is also good.
It's probably aimed too high and might bother other drivers at night - I ride so infrequently at night that I've not addressed yet.
Says it works with AC or DC.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZVLFW88/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Brake lights are:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073TBR62T/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1. (single post)

Tail light/brake light option would be: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01NCOHKCZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1. (it has two posts rather than one on the bottom)

The brake lights are spectacular - feel like people really see them when I step on the brake.

Have considered masking off part of my headlamp to give a lower cut off - but never got that far.

OK, I got the wiring sorted and temporary lights installed. All is working!

For the wiring, from the wiring harness:
Red to the coil - it's the kill button.
White to Ground
Red and Yellow to the regulator

I couldn't figure out what the base was for the headlight so I went down to Autozone and found it, and I'm using that bulb for the time being until I get an LED for it, and the tail lights.

Headlight bulb base is 2357
Taillight and brakelight is 97 or 1155

Starts easily and there are lights! I'm going to ride it for a few days then get busy on the 2 port Pinasco 177 kit.

Something not so good happened. I'm super bummed I dropped the glass headlight and broke the lense. So I've got a repop on order, as well as a 12VAC horn. The 6v Screams now! Ha!

Reminds me of a story...

I used to have a 6v VW bug back in the day I'd take to the beach in Port Hueneme all the time. I'd park on a sand hill and bump start it, cause the 6v battery was anemic at best. Well, I finally put a 12v battery on the floorboard and would jump the 6v system with the 12 battery if I got stuck. It would go like this: try to start: uuhuuhuuhuuuhuuh. Hit it with 12V WEENENENENEN. Bruuumba..... Away I'd go....

Right on Scott.
Shame that bugs not around any more.
You didn't mention the bit about climbing underneath with a screwdriver to jump the starter when the solenoid didn't work.

🙂

Hey my friends, it's time! I've been riding around and the Electronic Ignition is working great. I have lights and everything is operating as it should (except for the speedo, but that's a different issue).

So here is the cylinder and piston. I plan on relieving the piston and cylinder port edges.

Is there anything else I should do to this cylinder and/or piston?

I don't plan on splitting the cases, or porting the cases in any way at this point in time.

Is there any links I should read up on, or should I just install and go?

Thanks for any input!

Scott,
My $.02.
No need to go crazy.
Significant anecdotal evidence would suggest that the case porting/matching is the least likely place to create bottle neck as is - so should not really come in to play in any event.

The biggest lever you have in your hand for additional power (we are talking scooters here) - I would say - is timing and exhaust port size.

Can you remind:
- What carb - is it a 20/20?
- What exhaust?
- What kit is that? Pinasco iron? Were there any specs for it on port timings?

If you can confirm those are 1mm rings - we can probably give some suggested safe alterations if you want to consider.

Fire up some info - and I'm happy to weigh in on some ideas you are welcome to use or ignore at will.

🙂

-CM

Hey CM,

Yes, 20/20 carb. I've matched the box to the carb. Although I could put in a 24/24, but was saving it as a backup for Ruby, the P200

SR-150 from ScooterMercato - performance box exhaust
Iron cylinder.

1mm rings

I've watched SteveO and Robot's vid on the kit. They just slapped it in. I've also watched the O-Tuning vid by MrFreakMoped and couldn't quite grasp all he did to the piston and cylinder. I did notice he slanted the ports towards the rings on the piston. I may do a bit of that....

Timings - No, the paperwork is vague on timing, as follows: "The advance of ignition should be maintained on IT". Well, current timing is 26-28 degrees. It's a 125cc. I read somewhere while I was scouring for info that it should be set at 18 degrees. What do y'all think it should be?

Thanks![/b]

qas'
- Scooter Center has a couple comments that caught me eye that may be of interest to you.
1. They note that the piston to cylinder clearance is a little tight on some... that sounds like code to me for careful - you can seize. The remedy for this is to assure clearance through either heavy hone or bore I guess. I would measure and hone to 12/100mm 2. They also state (in bold): the following things must be considered urgently so that the cylinder has a long life: So you should be good with the 20/20, or 24/24, and your timing should be taken down to 20 or below. Given the heat issue they note - this seams essential.

Ok - with that out of the way...
Since I haven't seen Jack on them boards for a couple days - I'll give you what I would do assuming you don't wanna just slap it on and go (which would also be fine).

(Suspect you would like to do this in the bike - which is ok - but makes measuring timing accurately kinda tough - it its a toss op - throw it on the bench.)

Considerations:
- Cylinder is designed for broad power band/ torque. so timings are going to be fairly low.
- Head is a drop in head - and appears to come with no gasket.
- Squish will be the limiting factor for lifting the cylinder- you don't want to have a big squish.
- Lifting the cylinder with a thicker base gasket would be the simplest means to add some HP and revs.
- Thus the only option for more power and revs may be to grind the exhaust port top and width (which is fun). Dremel extension with sand paper will cut the iron and polish at same time if you have a decent grit.

So - what I would do is confirm where I'm at to start with.
1. Do a port map - with the paper super carefully leveled with the top of the cylinder. Don't worry about the ports in the skirt - just the transfers and ex. port.
2. Assemble it on to the motor with the base gasket they gave you, and use some solder to measure squish - let's see what we have if anything to work with.
3. Measure exhaust port width, and from top edge to top of paper.
4. Measure top of transfers to top of paper.

If you post that stuff - we should be able to calc your timings, and consider any tuning that you might wanna do to that ex. port.
Jack might also check back in and all info would be posted for him to consider as well.

On the run but will look at the O tune vid on this cylinder later - feel free to post a link if you wanna.

best,
-CM

Hey, Thanks CM, I sure appreciate the input. I did a port measurement. Tomorrow or Monday I'll take the old cylinder off, clean, and dry fit everything.

Unless you can tell I need to grind away with the sanding disc to open up the port a little bit.

Here is MistaFreakMopeds vid on the 177 O-tuning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uacZlOaEpKM

Is this the kit? There are some timing numbers in the video, they did end up raising the top of the exhaust port. Also put some spacers under the cylinder.

Just a thought from someone who has a cast iron DR177, there not hard to grind on and it can be kind of fun. As CM mentioned opening up the transfer ports on the cylinder, may do no good at all. But it was good practice, on cast iron before I touch an aluminum cylinder.

In the video it looks like all they did was add a really good chamfer to the piston ports. I didn't see any exhaust port width measurements, but I'm not a fan of his video style. A little narration, or even comments on why would be nice.


https://youtu.be/uacZlOaEpKM

Ok - so FMP did the measuring for us to an extent.
He left out the squish - which we are going to need - but it gave us some more info so now we can see where its going.

The basics of his video are:
- The cylinder has very very low timings out of the box.
- He reworks the exhaust port in height, shape, and width - making it much larger.
- He does some other minor work at the skirts and the inlet/crank - which we will ignore for the time being.
- He shows options of either lifting the cylinder or not - and this has an effect on how much material to take off the exhaust port.

What he is showing is, you can lift the cylinder, and make the exhaust port significantly wider and taller. This will translate to power. The timings remain very reasonable - so it will not be peaky.

He gets a little different measure than you did on the transfers - but matches your exhaust measure which is the key one. Great!
Though he does not give max width on the exhaust port work - we have some info for that - so I can help establish some fairly safe numbers.

One choice you are going to need to make is - are you going to lift the cylinder.
If you do - the ideal thing to do would be to have it decked as well - to maintain a 1.0 squish - but there are no absolutes.

My $.02. If I didn't want to deck the cylinder - I would use his first option. This is the one where he raises the exhaust port 3.5mm in height. I would target about 46MM width (for reference - my BGM is 48.25 with 1mm rings - and my Polini was apron. 46mm and was solid. See pic below - it adds a lot of surface area to your exhaust port without taking your timings up much.

I would keep the shape to a somewhat squared oval - with big generous turns. See sketch below - its to scale.
As for the skirt - your kit is already cut pretty high. I would probably just run with that as is. Should be fine.

Piston - if you feel like getting fancy - you can add the chamfers he shows. It will likely not make the big differences that the exhaust port will - but its fun to use the Dremel.

Couple of tips based on my experience:
1. If you have an old 63mm ring - you can slide it in to place with the piston - so its level - 3.5mm above the exhaust port - and glue it with super glue. This makes a really nice way to create a stop for your sanding work.
2. Use sanding drums in different sizes - as noted.
3. Use an extension on the Dremel (thanks SoCal!)
3. You can enter the port thought the exhaust flange. I like to not grind too much in one place - and just keep moving around as I take the walls out. Helps me keep it symmetrical and avoid weird gouges.
4. Taper of the exhaust port is good - but you don't want the walls of the exhaust port to bow inwardly like an hourglass. Those you want straight - so when you grind - make sure to cary the taper back towards the flange exit to give that straight line of sight.
5. Be aware of where the stud holes are so you don't blow through the exhaust port walls and in to the stud hole. Bad.
6 When you grind, the Dremel will want to slip in to the cylinder. Don't sweat it - it happens. just be ware that it will want to slip past the end of the sanding barrel so be careful as you run it in and out. You can always re-hone if it gets messy in there.

If you are down to raise the cylinder - then the only changes are:
1. Instead of 22mm height - it will be 23MM tall - and you will use a 1.6MM base gasket that you either make or buy.
2. After you put that 1.6mm base on it - measure the squish - and we can figure out how much to deck the cylinder so that we get back to 1mm.

Finally - if you show it to a machinist and he says he doesn't know how to clamp it (its a thing) - show him the ribs between the fins on the cylinder. These will cary the load and allow him to clamp if he clamps in line with them.

That's what I got.
Good luck!

Thank you Chris for your input and putting up FMs video. Yeah, I was having a hard time understanding what he was actually doing.

CM - Dude - you're Dr. CM for sure! Thank you!

I think what I'm going to do is go for the 3.5 and no shims. That way I don't have to do anything to the top end, and I'm sure this little "boost" is going to be enough to blast around town on 8's. And I may just bump up to the 24/24, which will give it a little more also.

I KNOW down the line I'll need to open up the cases, new seals, cross, clutch, etc., but for the time being, I'm going to do one thing at a time, and ride in between. Which is why I did the Electronic Ignition first. It's running great with it. So now to get it running nicely with the new cylinder.

Thanks so much for the detailed input! I'm going to ovalize the exhaust port as suggested. It's interesting inside the port itself - it actually has that tapered bit, which I'll smoothen out and ovalize.

The gameplan is made! Time to make it happen!

Awesome!
Think you will get 95% of the good stuff from this direction.
Perfect job for a Sunday. Only item that poses an un-recoverable risk.
Keep an eye - may be fine - but just beware of the relation ship of the stud holes to the exhaust port side walls...

That it is - fun to use the Dremel!

I ground out the exhaust port and relieved all the edges parallel with the top/bottom of the cylinder.

Hopefully tomorrow I'll disassemble the existing top end and install this baby...

Looking good!
U might wanna look at the exhaust port exit walls a little for hour glassing?
A small straight edge will identify any areas on those side walls or ceiling if it needs just a little more finessing.
Shape looks good.
Significantly larger.
Going to make a nice upgrade.

Have you decided if 24/24?
Fire up your jetting currently and which carb you plan to run if you wanna.
Apologies if already done and I've just forgotten.

In case you get board, take a look at the polished exhaust port in this thread.

Porting 101

I didn't see this until now. seems like a lot of good decisions were made.
162/110/26 will be good for a 3 speed. 46mm wide is fine too. Just need to get that exhaust port straight. It should be sanded from the bore to the tip and checked with the straight edge. If this isn't straight the exhaust works less well and you'll lose torque. Need it all.

Jetting will be AC140 BE5 with main jet and pilot as needed. Timing for electronic should be 18 but for points 21.

Careful with the running in. Be sure the jetting is not lean but slightly rich.

Thanks for the link Christopher. I'll check it out. Thanks for chiming in Jack!
I'll get to cleaning and straightening that exhaust port.
I'll be using a 20/20 carb. Is the BE5 similar to the E3? I'm ordering a BE5 now.

Wow Scott qascooter that is looking great. I'm just catching up on this looks like you've caught the Dremel bug nice going! Think B62 is gonna love it.

Ha!
Jack left the house to the kids with enough stuff to make a pizza.
I thought it was some kinda test.
On a positive note - we managed not to burn the place to the ground.

Question: if you look at the floor of the exhaust port - there is a kind of "bump" there - keeping the line from being straight. I noticed this same bump in the Polini, and wondered why they did that. Any ideas why that's there?

While your pondering - qas can clean up. Sorry for the mess.

Thank you Hibbert - and CM, you crack me up! I think it was a test! Ha!

The only way to get that bottom bump out is to widen the bottom of the exhaust, so I guess it'll just live that way, but I can smoothen and straighten out other areas for sure...

Out of curiosity, when you install the cylinder, before the head is installed. Get a good look at the relationship between bottom of the exhaust port, and the top of the piston, when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke. You may find that cleaning it up and lowering that part will do no good because the top of the piston doesn't go down that far.

Alright - got some stuff done! It's crazy how much I can get done when I walk through the garage. 5 minutes here, 5 minutes there, and it's almost ready to roll, er, cycle a few times.

I've been so busy with other life issues that the only time I've got is when I've walked by. I'd love to have 4 hours to just work on the scooter, but it never - NEVER - works out that way for me.

Regardless, I cleaned up and polished the exhaust port, Installed the Piston, Cylinder, exhaust, cleaned up the engine case, and am about 15 minutes away from kicking her over.

ScootNewb (Chris) is coming over tomorrow with Rocket and we'll take turns breaking the sweet engine in. That means:
- drive into town - hang out for a while.
- Drive back to the house. Hang out for a while.
- Switch scooters and ride into town - repeat...

Coffee, Buttermilk bars, and burritos will be consumed during break-in.

Brilliant!
Love it.
You won't wanna get off B62.
Pics!

I don't know ANYBODY who does so much properly and with such obvious enthusiasm and who also has so many other challenges to deal with along the way. And who shares the fun so dang well too.

Respect!

Are you putting in bigger jets to richen him up a bit, for all the extra CC's?

Thanks Hibbert and CM. And Voodoo, you're very kind my friend - thank you.

Christopher - jetting is a big question I have. I'll ask below...

I woke up at 4 this morning and realized I forgot to set the time to 18 degrees, so I did that this morning. Chris came over and helped out.

Major compression now, and the kickstart arm feels like it's bending when I kick, then it lets loose and kicks over nicely, but strong. I haven't checked compression (yet).

So I got it fired up and drove it on dirt road street in front of the house for a few, then let it cool. Repeat.

At this point I felt I wasn't going to blow anything up so we took a ride into town to get a buttermilk bar (out of donuts - got there too late), so we went down to the boat launch and the port. After another cool down, we swapped scooters and went to get a burrito, then down to the Veterans Memorial by the river to eat. Then back home. One more cool down, and one more trip out to 101. This time after she was warmed up I let her rip for 30 seconds. Wow-wow-wow. Badass and super fun. When it hit 50 I backed down and waited for Chris

I'm super stoked - but the jetting is off. The idle jet is (I feel) is too rich because it four strokes or stutters when at 0 to 1/4 throttle.

So that's the story. But I definitely need help jetting. I took Jacks advice and here is my current setup:

20/20 carb w/butterfly drilled in filter
48/140 Idle Jet
140/BE4/109 Main stack
B7HS plug (pic below)

I know Jack recommended a BE5 Atomizer, but I only had a BE3 and the BE4.

Questions:
- What Idol Jet should I be using?
- What Main Jet should I start at?
- What plug should I be running?


I'll place an order for the proper Atomizer and whatever Idle jets I need to try...

Thanks for all the help and encouragement. You guys on this forum are the best! And a big thanks to Scootnewb (Chris) for coming over and helping me break in the new top end!