Modern Vespa

( Keep your modern v. vintage wars outta here!! )

This is actually two questions in one:

-If you were going to pick up a vintage Vespa, what would you get and why?
-If you were going to pick up a vintage Italian scooter (other than a Vespa) what would you get and why?

Parameters:
-Let's just assume the scooter you would want is in decent shape already (ie it's not just a rusted out shell) but it could need some serious TLC.
-It should be something that there are still parts available for, though maybe hard to find.


This question is mainly for those with vintage experience and mechanical know-how, but I'd like to hear all suggestions and ideas.

I find myself in a fairly unique situation living in Italy and having been bitten by the scooter bug. There are a TON of readily available vintage scooters around, but I don't know much about them.

Vespa - I think most would say "GS150" "GS160" or "SS180". Being that i already have a GS160 and an SS180, i'd like either a raced-out Pk125 or P200, ( both of which i've owned and sold and regret doing so ) or a 1952 Faro Basso fenderlight model that i'd ride on rare weekends to local bike shows. I'm leaving out the 1952 U-model, the SS90 and the V98 ...probably the three most expensive vespas in existence out of the running, because if i owned any of them i'd likely sell them off for the cash and buy less rare ones that i could ride without guilt.

I also have a huge soft-spot for the Vespa T-5 or an all-original '74 primavera in the stock tangerine orange factory paint. ( converted to 12v and battery-free, as the electrics are garbage )

Lambretta - SX200 or TV200... even though the TV200 is rarer, i'd rather have the SX because i LOVE the looks of the stock oxblood seat cover against the white paint. I'm rocking an oxblood seat cover on my GS160 for that reason. Also, it's 200cc, disc brake, etc. What's NOT to like about it?


I'd like a 60's Vespa Ape 3-wheeler, preferably with the truck bed on it ..


And finally, i want all my fuji rabbits to run. When they do, i'll be very happy. The stock 601C Superflow 200 is a phenomenally designed scooter , and would possibly be a DREAM bike for me if i wasn't so fond of shifting and if i wasn't too tall for the individual saddle-seats. For someone who was an automatic-scooter fan, i'd think it would be the bike-to-go-vintage with.

If reliability as a daily driver and finding new parts is important, I would say get a P series. Sure, they aren't as sexy they are workhorses and parts are cheap and plentiful.

If classic lines are important, then I second Eric's suggestion of a GS 150 or a GS 160.

A Rally 200 is a great bike spanning vintage and modern styles. It isn't quite as sexy as a GS but it has a lot more charm than a P series.

Rally 180.

Pretty rare machine though...finding parts specific to a Rally 180 is difficult. I love the looks of the Rally 180 and they have some real power when they are running well.

Rally 180 is a funny one... framewise it looks like a SS180 with a round headset and the less bulbous, Rally-style cowls. ( rally 200 and 180 cowls are interchangeble, incidentally) It's got the SS180 style taillight, except for 1971 where it had the gooseneck CEV one.. The engine is it's own beast - which makes finding parts for it somewhat of a bitch. Almost NOTHING about it is interchangeable with other engines...carb aside.

i would suggest an early 80's p series (125/200) not to sure what models were sold in italy. anyhow, it's not regarded aesthetically as having "vintage lines", but the parts are readily available, and they are the best manual transmission motors piaggio ever built (i.m.o.). if you get one, and have fun wrenching on it, you can move on to a more classic model (with more "challenging" motor design and parts availability, though very similar to the p).

if you don't have fun wrenching on a p, then i would consider maybe a new, modern scoot. p-series is as easy as it gets, and are super reliable. vintage bikes challenge your patience, sanity, and bank account.

A 1978 or better Rally 200 with the Ducati electronic ignition instead of the Famesa ignition, you get PX components with Rally style.

In Italy you could ride on the highway with a 150 cc or more motor.

Check this Rally out:

www.petermoore.net/2008/home.html

Regards,

I think the P200 would be a good start for most MV types to get. The engine components are easy to get to; spark, carb (jets), cables. It's like the VW bug of scooters because you can get parts for them almost anywhere. Being an owner of a smallframe, I have to deal with the constant double checking to make sure I haven't accidentally picked up a part for a P instead.

As for other Italian scoots, a lambretta would always be nice. The SX200 seems to be the one to get. Jet200's seem to have electrical problems from what I hear. The interesting difference with lammys and vespas is that parts for lammys tend to be very standard. For instance, a set of brake shoes for a TV175 will work in an SX200 or LD etc. Try doing that with a vespa. HA!

You may want to check with a local, but it my understanding that it is getting increasingly difficult to register vintage bikes in Italy for on road use. I'm not sure the rules but a coworker in Milan has 5 stunning vintage rides (one prisitne fender light) but he can't ride them due to new pollution laws. I saw vintage bikes on the road all the time - but maybe they had some sort of use restrictions?

I think I would pick up two scooters.

First I would pick up a G Runner or a Dragster I would use either of those for primary transportation. For picking up bread or coffie runs I would find a classic vespa. Mk 1 GS would be my first choice as I dont have one of those. Eric already has one... ~

Your right in the middle of all the action as far as Vespa and Lambretta. What I hear is alot of Italians would rather have something new.

What you should do is start a side business and grab all the good scooters and sell them to us here in the USA. If thats too much for ya to handle. You could just sell used parts.

I think if I lived in Italy they would kick me out for having my front yard looking like a junk yard littered with scooters.

Talk about barn finds! There's got to be a rusting pile of scooters in everyones back yard out there.

You're correct about the laws getting increasingly more stringent on emissions. In fact if I'm not mistaken, by next year even ET4s will be illegal on the street, at least in Rome. (!!) I'll only be living here one more year, and then on to a different spot, possibly in Ottawa (government job...moving every 2-3 years). And autos are paid for in shipments. So actually I do need to check on some of the laws here b/c if I time it right I might find some really good deals on scoots that people can't drive anymore. Didn't even think about that. Yeah, if only I could find a coffee shop around here.

i always suggest cutting your vintage teeth on a PX series. p125, 150 or a 200 to start. the 200 is powerful enough to ride just about anywhere and the small displacement bikes are easily upgradeable in to street terrors.

px series parts are inexpensive and widely availible. there are several service manuals and pretty much any vintage scooterist knows how to work on them. they are one of the easiest bikes to work on, dependable and have the best suspension and brakes.

finaly the entry price is usually lower than the more sought after vintage pieces.

if you want something with truly vintage lines then i'd say a super or a sprint or a rally 200 (but be prepared to pay thru the nose). these models have a pretty good parts availibility (save for some weirdo one year only stuff here and there), are fairly straight forward to work on and generally more simple in the wiring and ignition department.

i'd wait to get the elusive GS, SS, GL or what have you untill you've gotten a pretty good handle on the vintage ownership.

if you buy a lambretta, leave it stock. build it right the first time and then ride the wheels and tires off of it.

best,
-greasy

Depends on what kind of ownership experience you're looking for. My ideal vintage Vespa is an SS180. If I already had one of those, I'd probably go for a GS160. Since I don't have either, I'd like to get myself a P200 for learning purposes and for the advantage of owning a fairly reliable vintage scoot that I can just have fun with and make my own.

Oh you're in a great spot - there are indeed vintage rides - especially 80's P series that Italians are going to want to unload since they cannot ride them (legally). That's exactally what those Quepo guys in Bergamo are doing: selling scoots that you can no longer register in Italy to other contries.

I suggest that you start taking orders and we get a group-buy together for MV 8)

as far as a Vespa, a P-series is the obvious answer, but they're not vintage enough for me (i.e. they go reasonably fast and the brakes and lights work).

So I'd say early 60s Allstate or VLB/VBB, they're slow but generally reliable and easy to work on, parts are easy to find, and the electrics are simple. and they're beautiful.

GSes, SSes, GLs, are nicer but parts are hard to find and they're just too 'precious,' for a bike I'm actually gonna ride, I'd rather ride something I wasn't so concerned about crashing/having stolen.

Once you get into the late 60s, the bodies aren't quite as pretty, but Sprints and Supers are both nearly as elegant/simple as the VBBs, as long as you get an early model without turn signals and US electrics. Don't buy anything from post 1973 unless it's running perfectly and the lights/signals all work, fixing the electrics will make you insane. The Rally 180 and Rally 200 are when they started getting reliable again, but were replaced by the P-series just as they got going. A Rally200 Electronic is P-series reliablity and speed in a late-60s frame, but again, the electrics can be troublesome.

Outside of Vespas, the Lambreta Li Series 3 is the VBB of Lambrettas, parts grow on trees and they're pretty simple.

Hehe I suppose there is once you're out of the city. Just at my building alone there are two 50 Specials that have been just sitting there, unmoved, for at least two years (since I've been there). I walk by the white one daily and just think, "Man, whoever owns this would probably be *happy* if someone took it."

Great advice and thoughts so far by the way. Thanks everyone.

Please explain me how can they ban a registered motorbike that complied with previous exhaust pollution directives?

Perhaps they can motivate you to send your vintage scooter to the crusher, but if you choose to keep it running for ever and you pay the taxes, how can they ban you from driving?

The EU is going the way of California when it comes to vehicle emissions.

You kind of answered your own question... as you try to renew the registration - you can't unless it meets certain NEW exhaust emission goals: like EURO IV or EURO V. Kind of stinks! But in the governments defence - (especially in Northern Italy) they are dealing with some terrible air quality issues. Personaly I think 2-stroke scoots are getting the brunt of the over-regulation - but after living in Milan, I can tell you that the air quality SUCKS there - I mean like L.A. on a bad day. They really ought to be going after the pre EURO III diesels belching NOx and particulate.

There are days up north where unless you drive a EURO IV or higher compliant vehicle, you cannot drive in the urban center. Period.

[quote="Baldanzi"] Same in Rome...except it's only for certain HOURS of the day, which is silly. It's like when the bus drivers go on strike.......except during the hours of 7-10am and 4-8pm. Wha???

Morvan, I agree with many of the previous posts.
However:
PX200 motor stock and throw it in a frame of your desire. Except of course Small frames and GS150. Blah Blah..

I always check Ebay Italy there is so much goodness to be had, on your side if the pond.

I just picked up an SX200 in Feltre, Veneto (Silly Money) So finding a scooter of your choosing, should'nt be a problem mate.

I am excited for you mate, Goodluck.

Cheers

The EU directive I'm aware of here in Spain is that starting next year no new 2-stroke vehicles can be registered.

The existing registrations are not affected. At least here in Spain they aren't and my kid brother plans on riding his 2 vintage Lammies for years to come.



You can also apply for "historic vehicle" registration.

As for "barn finds" et al on eBay Italy and the like, that's going to be tough. Believe me, there's some very tough competition on Internet by the English, who monitor and completely dominate the vintage market. They bid in Sterling, too!

If you're in Rome, your best bet is to leave little notes on the parked bikes you like.

Vespa Messerschmitt. Think its a GS150 but could be wrong

Anyway, am getting a Vespa history book for my birthday tomorrow so will have a good peruse and may change my mind later

Craig

Do quite like VBC's as well though....

And VBB's......

The list goes on haha.

Like so many have said : the P series. Get one, learn, have fun, keep it or sell it when you move up to a Rally, SS180, etc.

What is the PE series? I recognize PX and PK 200s, but I'm also seeing PE all over the place and I'm not familiar with it. Also, what's the difference between P, PX, PK and PE?

Here's a start http://scoot.net/faq/P_Series

Some good info here, some bishwashh, then Goggle, I'm off tae bed.

Cheers

if i went vintage, and if i could afford it, idd have.


a lambretta sx200 (ts1 or RB kit)

or

a vespa rally. (with a px200e engine in it).


i love fast vintage scoots.


they surprise the bikers.

Hey, happy birthday! Mine's tomorrow, too (54) Then you know what the next day is, don't you? If not, oh, just wait...


Ummm...back on topic. I made the leap for a Super Sport for my first vintage. I blame Eric. And thank him.

"P-series" is the generic term to mean any P / PX series.

PK is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. they were the smallframe of the 80's that LOOK like a P-series bike ( boxy, squarish, plastic headset and horncast ) but are a completely different bike mechanically.

PE ..the P200 was designated the "P200e"...i assume because the Electronic ignition ( cdi ) it had that the earlier P150 and P125 did NOT have.

PX200e / PX150 / PX125. The way i understand it, the PX style bikes are the same aesthetically, but were a later designation (...say...post '83-ish ) because there were constant modifications to the P-series.

In 1982 or 83 they added a fuel gauge. In '86 they added the electric start. In 84 they added the locking cowls ( which you'll note the Stella does NOT have - likely due to cost ). Later PX bikes have a single, LARGE speedo in which the indicator lights are all inside the speedo ( like the Stella ) ...earlier ones ...like the '79-83 have a smaller round speedo with indicator lights seperate ..located above the speedo on the headset itself.

So...to answer your question, the P, PX and PE are all sorta interchangable...sorta. The PK is totally different.

-Eric

Excellent thanks (and that link jimh was exactly what I'd been looking for and couldn't stumble across). I knew the PK was smallframe, but otherwise was unsure.

Spent much of the night looking into them.

I think I'll be focusing on either a P200 or a Lam SX200 for the first one. Love the look of the Lambretta, especially the white with that ox blood seat!

One further question: what kind of condition should I be looking for as my first vintage? There seem to be many P series here that are all fixed up and ready to go. Minimal, if any, mechanical or body work to get them on the road (and they look beautiful). Those obviously are more expensive. Then there are those for a few hundred euro which need much more TLC.

What kind of condition should I be looking for? And what's the 'rust factor' with these bikes? When is rust a complete no-go and when is it workable? [/b]

I replied to this in your PM, but for the good of those reading :

I would really try to find yourself a 90% complete or more P200. Whether it's a PX200 or a P200 is dependent on your area and availability. There really weren't any PX200's imported to the US after 1982, but i see tons of people in Europe and Australia with them. That would be a nice bike due to the electric start and whatnot.

As far as people in the US are concerned, i'd really try to focus on a bike that has it's original paint on it for a couple reasons... there are SO MANY DAMN PARTS to a p-series, and a really complicated electrical system. If it's still in good original condition, you can be relatively assured that MOST of the rubber boots, grommets, and other little parts are likely there ( the owner took care of it ...or at the least put it under a sheet in the garage and barely touched it ). Secondly, the electrical system on the P200 is complicated in comparison to it's predecessors. Things like batteries, rectifiers, turn signals, neutral indicators, electric start, front brake switches...these add complexity to a normally 4-wire harness Trying to track down some sort of electrical short in a P200 harness is an absolute pain in the ass if you don't know what you're doing.

So, that said, if it's in good original condition you can hope that the wiring harness is in good condition as well.

these are assumptions, but i'm trying to steer you guys who have little mechanical knowledge towards a first good starter bike.

Expect to pay $2500-3000 for a really good condition orignal P200. If it's a US 79-81 model, they made it in Silver, Maroon, White, and Italian Racing Blue and possibly another color or two i'm not aware of....so you should be able to recognize those colors immdiately as the stock job.

I've always lusted after a Rally 200, but selected a cute little 1961 VBB for my first restoration job. I like it because of its classic lines, the 8-inch tires and battery-less electrical system, and because there seem to be plenty of replacement parts available for it. To me the small tires make it really look classic -- and I have my LX150 for my commuter vehicle so this one is just for fun. The VBB was the first with the 4-speed transmission I believe (VBA and earlier had only 3 speeds), which I thought was a good thing as far as driveability and engine life. And I've been told that the 150 supers have really bad electrical problems.

But this is my first restoration, so I bow to the expertise of others in the group.

-Dan

Stellas have locking cowls.

MMmmmm?

Have we forgot about the PX80e and P100? "Real Classics" Well they looked nice from the front.

Fastest scooters in all of world. Well, that was 84'

Get a P mate then if ye dump it, Paint it black (flat) and cut in down, 80's style

You haven't bought one yet? With so much to choose from eh!
Happy hunting.

Cheers

Since English is not my mother tounge, albeit my name, I have to rely ona contraption known as the English Dictionary (we use our Spanish Dictionary oftenly not only to kill burros).

This is the word that would define what I would like in a vintage Vespa: patina.

"Patina (n) 2. a pleasing surface sheen on something that develops with age or frequent handling."

I would like my vintage bike to be as original as possible, with the scratches and blemishes that give it character. An unrestored example.

Given that the Vespa engine is covered and that Corradino d'Ascanio didn't want the prospective owner to fiddle with anything mechanic, I wouldn't mind if it was overhauled. Better, it would be friendlier with the world. I wouldn't minde using synthetic oil to smoke less, leave less deposits on the engine.

My vintage Vespa (since we don't have any Lambrettas around in Costa Rica) would shout to the world: the throw away society is dead wrong, here I am setting the example!

Regards,

Robert, That is one of the best posts, i have read

Cheers mate,
Jim

Lol not yet. Been kicking the idea around for just a couple weeks now, and though I've decided to definitely get one I have a bit of searching to do. Quite a few factors to consider here:

-I don't speak Italian well so I need to work with one of my 'native' friends in order to get one

-there's paperwork galore in Italy that can take forever to complete (I'm *still* waiting to get my completed paperwork on my lx150 from the powers that be.

-there's alot to choose from in the P-series range. I've spent the last two nights up real late just looking at ebay ads (and those are only a small selection of what's available)

-I've narrowed selection down to P-200, Lam SX200 (harder to find but damn I'd like one), or possibly a T-5.

-I'm married. Do I need to elaborate more on that?

-it will cost a few euro to buy one, and that's always enough to make me take my time

At the same time I just want to run out, buy one, and get going!

Robert "the" Bruce, great post!