Modern Vespa

So i want to put a Lithium Battery in my 2015 sprint 150 since i dont ride it all that often. Does anyone have a suggestion of what would work best in this? Im thinking of adding under lighting to it later so im kind of worried about voltage draw.

As far as I can see, the only selling point for lithium batteries is light weight. Too early to tell if they'll meet the long-life claims. They work less well in chilly weather. And they are quite expensive. They also rely on internal charge and discharge controllers, which may be a separate problem.

Just a plain old lead battery and a battery maintainer would do the trick, if you are talking months of downtime. A week or two, don't need the maintainer.

A good lithium battery will also give you more cranking amps for a given size battery, you can also up size your cranking amps for the same size battery, very useful on large cc engines

A good lithium battery will also give you more AH

A good lithium battery will also have a lower shelf discharge rate than a lead acid battery

I installed an EarthX lithium battery in my 1300 cc V-twin 2 years ago, the EarthX has almost 3 times the cranking amps, 36 AH vs. 11.4 AH and 3.5 lbs. vs. 10 lbs. over the stock battery (no more hard hot starts)
https://earthxbatteries.com/

But....as Jimding mentioned, too early to tell how they will perform long term, we still have another 3 to 5 years before we will know

Not sure you would get much for your money on a small cc bike

Jim's advice is excellent but to facilitate the use of the charge maintainer you can use a socket always connected to the battery; i use an Alca Power maintainer

http://www.alcapower.it/it/categoria/01011507/charger-e-jump-starter-

with this accessory cable

http://www.alcapower.it/it/articolo/708025/01011507

The socket can be taken out into the trunk or into the helmet compartment, easy to connect when needed.

you need an Antigravity battery...they are amazing...Lith ion..built in reserve power feature that always saves just enough power in reserve to start the bike....

i have then in all my scoots.... https://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/

On my fifth year with one Shorai and own a total of five.
A lead-acid battery loses 1 volt/month. A good LiIon battery loses 0.1 volt/month.

I strongly dispute your figures, which are pretty meaningless anyway. The voltage isn't directly relevant - it's the state of charge/capacity that counts. A lead-acid battery in good condition shouldn't lose more than 5% a month under normal conditions. A Li-ion will lose the same 5% in the first month -but much less, 1-2% per month thereafter.

Here's one site that expounds a bit more on this:
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge

"Strongly disputing and meaningless." Disputing is fine. Meaningless is incorrect. Voltage drop IS THE PRIMARY problem with stored batteries in this discussion and directly effects the ability for a battery to supply the required power (voltage * amperage) to start a vehicle.
What I learned from the link:
If one is to knowingly store a battery for a long period, the LiIon battery is best discharged to 40-60% of full charge. The lead-acid battery should be at full charge.
A lead-acid battery ages with sulfation and impurities in the electrolyte.
Heat effects both types of batteries.
Generally, the older the lead-acid battery, the faster its self-discharge rate.
I stand by my experience with the Shorai and suggest their use.

... if i can say my ...
Somewhere i read that the circuit responsible for charging the accumulator is designed to give not only volts and amperes but also a wave of a certain type; what i mean is that to charge a certain type of accumulator you also need the right battery charger.
It's correct..?

I installed a Motobatt lithium in my wife's Piaggio Fly 50 due to a slow crank after bumping it up to 80cc with the Malossi kit. The battery compartment is very small, and it was the highest cold cranking amp battery in that size. It fixed the issue.

How long ago?

Shorai suggests using its charger on its batteries. The charger has a function used to set up the battery for long-term storage.
I use this function for batteries if needed.
I read manuals and follow manufacturer instructions...

As long as the battery can deliver the required current (about 15A on a Vespa with an inrush current of about 30A) then the voltage doesn't directly matter - but below about 10V and it won't be able to deliver enough current. It's the current through the motor that determines the torque. The power delivered is torque*revs.

A battery with a shorted cell can still start a scooter, albeit with some struggle, as long as the remaining cells are in good condition and fully charged.

Now I do agree that an Li-ion battery will retain its charge far better than a lead-acid for prolonged periods. Not disputing that! Just your assertion that a lead-acid battery "will lose 1V per month". Tosh.

Power = V*A.
Not tosh.

Here is a great video to answer these questions.

...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ywopGAXP-I

I didn't say it was.

"As long as the battery can deliver the required current (about 15A on a Vespa with an inrush current of about 30A) then the voltage doesn't directly matter-" Not tosh?

There is a several hundred page lithium battery thread on ADV when you get time...
IMO, the important battery factoid form a PTW is a proper sealed battery that doesn't break the bank to buy and doesn't leak on me if I go down. I've had AGM batteries that were still going after 7 years and others that I threw away in less than two.

Seems a wise way to choose a battery!

Correct.

"then the voltage doesn't directly matter-"
Tosh.

It doesn't. A 10V battery (one shorted cell) can still start a Vespa as it can deliver enough current.

Please be more precise with your units and what they actually mean.

Done

Thats the company I had planned to buy from. They seem to get good reviews.

If I remember right, JimC was an electrical engineer for a living. So he understands electricity.

I got some lithium batteries when they first came out, and then stopped using them, mainly because of the price. About six years ago, I stuck one of my 50cc, well 70cc, Yamaha scooters in storage, primarily because I really didn't like watching my speed so much. I pulled it out of storage a few months ago, and the battery turned the engine over. I was a bit surprised. Since then, the battery has been fine. When Marcia needed a new battery in her 2006 Majesty, we put in a Shorai lithium battery, and it's been great.
In my experience, the secret to a good experience with a lithium battery is what you put it in. To be quite frank, Vespas, and Piaggio scooters in general, go through a lot of Voltage regulators. I think that speaks to the quality of the rest of the electrical system. It's not uncommon to find burnt or browned plugs on lightbulbs. They seem harder on batteries than other brands, as well. I'm not sure a lithium battery is a good fit for that sort of electrical system.

I bought a Ballistic years ago for my wife 250. It affected handling negatively as the weight of the lead acid battery seems to act as a nice ballast in those bikes with the battery between the feet. So I put it in my LX instead and it improves handling because the placement of the battery on the smaller bikes is up high and to the rear of the rider, right where a scooter is already pretty biased weight wise. Any way that was like 7 or more years ago, Sometimes the bike sits for a couple/few months at a time. Never been on a charger. Never not started the scooter. I guess now you can get lithium ion batteries that are in the shape of the originals so they fit nicely.

Hi, WEB-Tech.
I'm an EE. My patience is long but has a limit.

Alrighty, here's a question for the electrical guys.

If one had a battery with infinite potential current capacity, but it supplied 10V, could it start the scooter?

Yes, as it wouldn't have any internal resistance, so could still deliver more than the minimum of just over 9V required to provide enough current for these starter motors. It wouldn't be the most brisk of starts though.

As I see it, the whole P = V * A argument goes sideways once you accept the V part to be a variable, not fixed, quantity.

It's true, but it is also not so simple.

Not going to comment further.
Enjoy!

P = I^2 x R then?

Sure, if you can measure them.

Lithium batteries have proven themselves in many applications ie. computers, cars, watches, satellites.

I have been using them in motorcycles for several years and in my RV for 3 years. I think enough of them that I imported my RV batteries to save cost.

Two down sides are cost and the cold problem. The cost is now reasonable. The cold is handled by letting them warm up under resistance for a short period of time, usually less than a minute. On a motorcycle that resistance is provided by the lights.

Three down sides, Lithium's work best in low draw application not high quick draw.

Like I said I have put them in over 2 dozen motorcycle that I have recycled over the last three years. All of the bikes are BMWs over 1000 cc. The 1/6 dozen customer bikes. None have come back and all are still on the road with LiFePO4 batteries.

My RV batteries are now 2 years old with no apparent degradation. I monitor them closely.

But what more do you get than a higher price and lower weight? No more power, less reserve and I have never read a story of a lead acid battery creating a fire while charging from over heating.

Believe they work better in high-drain situations than other batteries, especially for their weight. This is why they're so useful in powering camera flashes, drones, and cars. A small battery can produce a lot of its energy in a short amount of time (aka "high power.").

But something is wrong with a gas-powered scooter if it needs high-drain capacity for more than a few seconds. Lead/acid batteries are more than adequate for this.

Lithium's primary benefit to the gas-powered scooter rider is low weight. How many gasoline-powered scooter riders need this benefit? Not too many.

The slow self-discharge rate is largely offset by the relatively short shelf life of gasoline...not to mention the ready availability of substitutes for battery power including kickstarters, jumpstart batteries, and outright jumpstarts from other vehicles.

Lead/acid batteries do, by the way, outgas meaningful quantities of hydrogen if they're discharged at a high rate for a long time, so they aren't immune to explosion/fire risk. This is a concern for RVers, boaters, and welders using high-capacity AC inverters powered by 12V lead/acid batteries. The batteries need to be located in ventilated spaces.

Hi all,
I've read with interest the discussion about Li-on batteries because I now need to replace the battery on my MP3 250.
Considering the lack of use it gets I pondered on a Lion battery because of it's apparent 'long life' during storage/non use.
Then I thought about cost versus use and I've come to the conclusion that in my particular case lead acid is still viable with a trickle charger.
I get the impression that Lion batteries can't be left completely unattended for long periods (over winter) and can't suffer too much cold - (and it's always hot in UK - not!) - without reliability issues. Also, as a lot of you are aware MP3's tend to be battery sensitive, so would Lion eliminate that problem?
Thoughts, idea's, or knowledgeable responses welcome,
Cheers George