Modern Vespa

How long can you store the standard ethanol flavored petrol we get here in the UK?

It's a maximum of 5% ethanol - and may contain a lot less. If in a airtight container, it should still be usable after a couple of years. After that, I'd only use it in a lawnmower or somesuch.

If you pour water into the container, shake it about for a minute and let it stand for 24 hrs, the water+ethanol will separate out and you will have pure petrol to store...

Vids on Youtube if you want to watch...

Just curious-where does the UK get it's alcohol for ethanol?

A recent article that explains some of this wrt UK:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49003496

Why would you have a need to store fuel for that long?

I rather doubt you can store it for years, even in an airtight container. Realizing that ethanol is an 'oxygenator', even with stabilizer added, I think a year of storage would be stretching it.

Remove the ethanol, and the remaining gas is lower octane. Might or might not be suitable.

Most survivalists go with diesel power for that reason. And even diesel fuel needs treatment chemicals to be shelf-stable.

In my experience, small engines are even more sensitive to old gas. So putting it in your lawnmower when it ages out is a nonstarter. I regularly pick up (often, for free) lawn equipment that "won't start" after a winter of storage. Dumping out the old gas and adding fresh (new) gas often is all that is needed to revive them.

Ethanol in fuel is a scam, whose sole benefit is providing demand for excess grain. Adding in all the pollution (air, water, soil) and extra water consumption, ethanol from grain does not cut pollution, it increases it. Fortunately, locally, we can still buy gas that is ethanol-free. So I do.

All right, the same goes for the biogas plants where a small part is of plant fraction and the rest are industrial waste hazardous to the environment and health. The methane produced is corrosive and charged with particulate matter that goes into the atmosphere.
To make ethanol you need to deforestate to plant other vegetables to transform, it's not a good thing ...
You have to think about other types of fuel (hydrogen for example), my car goes to LPG, others to methane.
I have a farm and I buy the petrol for lawn mowers and brushcutters when it's needed, one day before work, even for safety reasons.
However there are security containers, in plastic or metal they must be placed in ventilated places and they must have a vent valve for the vapors on the cap, there must also be danger signs that prohibit open flames and smoking.

Jim, in fact petrol sold here in the UK starts to 'go off' after just six weeks of storage. It's the additives and other components in the fuel that start to separate and degrade. It is after all, an organic product. It's still usable at that stage without any detriment to the engine. But, if you look at petrol that's been stored for 4 months or more, there is a redish brown layer at the bottom of the can. You can shake it up and mix it, but the fuel has still degraded. Folks who store there bikes without a fuel stabiliser in it over the winter, and then just start the bike up can have issues due to the fuel going off. The redish brown layer at the bottom of the fuel tank is in fact quite a sticky mix and it can damage the fuel system by gumming up the fuel lines and injector. That's why folks have running problems after storage if they don't use a stabiliser..

Many garages that sell fuel still have a fuel stir system in the underground tanks to make sure that if some of the fuel is stored too long, they can stir it and make it safe to use. This can happen to smaller garages that don't sell fuel quickly. Most fuel with a stabilser will last safely for up to a year or just past that, but use it at your peril if you go further than that with it.

Interesting article.

The wheat combine pictured in the UK news story on ethanol use and production, (sugar beets & wheat are the UK ethanol plant sources) must be electric for the ethanol dream of a carbon free, vehicle energy source?
I've never run one, nor seen one.
The Brazilians come closest to getting go juice right but meanwhile they are busy cutting down the rainforest to grow soybeans, etc., go figure on them too huh? I gotta shut up cause energy gets political fast.
I have my fingers crossed I'll begin to get Carbon Credit Checks in the mail for not cutting down my forested land.

Slightly different angle and sorry to OP for going a bit wide of the topic. In less than 10 years the Uk will be getting 88% of it's electrical energy from renewables ie: wind and solar. Nuclear will also contribute a percentage with just a tiny amount still being generated by gas. Gas generation will start to vanish almost completely in 12 years or so. Of course we will still be using gas in our homes for heating etc.

For just one day last year we ran the country on just renewable electricity. It was an important experiment to show technicians and the government how our systems were progressing. It worked brilliantly and showed it could be done., albeit big factories were asked to keep consumption down to minimum for several hours. So no carbon produced through burning fossil fuels to produce electricity.

This ties in nicely with the change over to electric vehicles that we in the UK are starting in earnest. In fact new technology is now being put in place to allow electric cars with this new charging technology to charge up fully from flat in just 8mins. Typically a Hyundia Kona electric vehicle which has a 64kw motor 204hp and 400nm of torque, 0-62 in 7.1seconds and a range of 318 miles as tested by many magazines charges at present in 55 mins from near empty. With the new technology it will charge in around 8 minutes, or so we are being told. But it will be another 18 months before cars will start to appear with this new charging technology. However, it will clean up our air quality no end and give many advantages over petrol engines. No more bad gas!

This for cars ... and other transport vehicles?

Love BBC news!
I don't support what could be turning water from aquafers in the Midwest into ethanol, through corn production. Not a good trade off.

Aviation gas is more tightly specified and highly refined. It is exceedingly shelf-stable. Unfortunately (for most purposes), AFAIK, it all contains lead. So not suitable in modern vehicles or for road use. Used to mix a bit of it with pump petrol to keep the valves in my old Airhead happy. A 5 gallon can of avgas would last most of a year, and never seemed to go bad.

Still wondering why you need to store gas for that long? If you have something that will be stored for an extended period, you can either fill the tank and add stabilizer, making sure it is distributed throughout the fuel system, or drain the fuel system entirely. If you live in a humid environment, a full tank is less likely to corrode. I have been known to add a dab of 2-stroke oil to the full tank as well, just to add a bit of anti-corrosion.

It would work as long as they are smart enough to keep the gas generation plants working as back up when needed.

WEB-Tech, yeah...it's looking good. The UK leads the world in renewables and is pressing ahead at hyper speed. No more internal combustion engines either from 2040, but that may be brought forward by 5-10 years or so as electric vehicles are progressing at a hugely fast rate now. In just 5 years many electric vehicle will have 500 miles range and charge up in just 10 minutes, all due to new battery and motor technology.

Here in the UK the electrical energy to charge our electric vehicles will come entirely from renewables and nuclear.

I recently had a Hyundai Kona 64kw 204hp electric car for the day. It was simply amazing. The performance is staggeringly good and beats most petrol cars that I've ever had. 0-60 in 6.9seconds Only did 250 miles in it but it still had plenty of charge in the batteries at the end of the drive. They told me it would do over 300 miles on one charge if I didn't drive it like a maniact all the time. On the slow charger at home it takes about 9hrs to charge it and costs just £6.70 (about $8?) to charge. To fill the petrol version of the kona to do the same mileage it would cost about £40. On the fast charger it takes 54 minutes to fully charge depending on the battery temperature and state of charge. Just a 10 minute fast charge put around 120-140 miles in the batteries depending on the battery temperures. Pretty good. The Uk is pressing ahead installing thousands of public fast chargers with the latest technology all over the country. The future is bright, it's electric!

... although i shouldn't say it, i don't like the electric ... it has no soul like the internal combustion engines. We are looking at the death of an age; nuclear fission is also to be eliminated, making electricity dirty for 10,000 years.
I don't think it's a good exchange ...
If you really need to use nuclear energy better to use thorium reactors (Rubbiatron, Accelerator-Driven System or ADS), they are safer and produce much less waste.

I just watched a show last night on how all the wind turbines are falling apart. Good luck with that wind power being financially feasible. They make more pollution to build than they eliminate while in production. That is a big problem I would say. The blades are delaminating and falling apart. The ones on the ocean are rusting away and requiring more maintenance than expected.

There is a very good chance that the companies making them will take in this information and make changes to their products. These weaknesses will fuel competition and companies that can manufacture blades that last longer will sell a lot of blades. Experience with off-shore drilling and bridge manufacturing shows that you can build something in the ocean that will last for a while.
I once saw or read something about making your own wind turbine out of an AC/Delco alternator. One particular model was supposed to work particularly well.

If we ever get the world political situation setteld down, we could build LMCFBR's and burn up a great deal of the world's nuclear 'waste'. And generate more fuel in the process.

Storage is increasingly acknowledged as an integral part of any 'renewable' energy system, and strides are being made. Whether batttery of some sort, chemical, or gravity remains to be seen. At present 'backup' power is intensly expensive, as it sits idle so much, but still requires maintenance.

Presumably we will reach the point of enough excess generating capacity, and enough storage, that it will become redundant.

Cars don't have a soul really. But horses might....



I'm sort of kidding, but more pointing out all the bad things forecast with the advent of cars.
Electric is just new.

Was reading today that in many locales it is necessary to drill increasingly deeper to get water:

https://phys.org/news/2019-07-americans-drilling-deeper-fresh.html

Have relatives living on a farm in western Iowa. When I was kid, their well was barely 30 feet deep. Probably 30 years ago, that one ran dry, and they sank a 100 foot well. Output from that well declined too, and when a cousin built a new house on the property, the well was over 200 feet deep. The original well was clean potable water. The latest is OK for washing and watering, after some filtration and treatment, but they get bottled water for cooking and drinking.

Be nice to know what percentage of the drop in ground water can be attributed to irrigating crops for 'renewable' fuel.

i agree...we have 2 wind turbines in my town which power the sewage treatment plant and there is always 1 not working and in need of repair...you don't always get the wind to power them...at least with solar you get some power even on cloudy days

i do look forward to electric vehicles being the norm though...instant torque and speed...unfortunately the infrastructure is lacking to support them...not enough charging stations...battery tech isn't there yet...ranges aren't great

We don't seem to be having much in the way of issues with turbines. Nearly all ours are out at sea. There is always wind. Where I live we have turbine wind generating fields off the cost going from horizon to horizon and have had for years. These work flat out all the time. Solar is growing fast too with the new generation of cheap efficient solar panels that keep working and have a longer life than the older ones. Many of these of course are made in China and very good they are too. There is a net gain in every way concerning CO2 emissions. Building a nuclear generator site produces huge amounts more CO2 than a wind turbine field that will power the same amount of homes and businesses. I think the technology for turbines has now been perfected and the turbine delaminating problem is not something that's an issue over here. The manufacturers turned to the aircraft industry for help I understand but that was years ago. Obviously, you may always get a faulty blade or two. Uk leads the world in renewables as do the Dutch with whom we work closely. It's very interesting to see the gains that have been made.

With all new nuclear sites these days, they produce huge amounts LESS of nuclear waste. These sites will safeguard electricity supply incase of turbines and solar producing less at some times of the day/year.

What I like about electric bikes and cars is the fact they don't need to warm up their engines. Ideal for short runs where petrol engines are not. EV's offer huge performance benefits too. Over here we are being told that 1000 mile range electric cars will be on sale in just 6-7 years or so. And ev cars with 400-500 miles ranges by 2023 and they will be affordable. Just 4 years away and all with very fast charge times of just minutes not hours. We have companies going as fast as possible to fit the infrastructure all over the country for charging. In the states you need a president who will act to get your infrastructure in place and help save the planet. Europe is way ahead of you guys as is China. It will create hundreds of thousands of jobs too like it has over here. We have full employment.

Guys ... at this link:

https://www.clubalfa.it/68592-batterie-a-stato-solido-passo-imec

...there is an important novelty:

We have been talking about solid-state batteries for some time now because of the many advantages that would lead to electric cars and E-mobility in general. Imec, a well-known research and development institute, has taken a big step forward: it is managing to bring the energy density of solid-state batteries from 200 Wh / liter to 400 Wh / liter, thus practically double.

Imec was able to achieve this by using a new solid nanocomposite electrolyte. This is placed in liquid form in the battery. After a while, the battery solidifies, still managing to maintain a certain elasticity. The latter, in particular, is a very important feature as it allows the unit to offer greater durability over time.
Solid state batteries: developments continue with the aim of increasing energy density

The company also states that this technology offers several advantages over the accumulators used today, managing to count on greater resistance and less waste of money for production.

In conclusion, Imec states that it will be possible to work on more margins of improvement which will allow to bring the density of solid state batteries even to 1000 Wh / liter by 2024.

Imec solid state batteries

Unlike a lithium battery, which contains a fluid electrolyte, a solid-state unit has, in fact, a solid one. The cathode and anode always remain. This new composition brings with it several advantages.

For example, a solid-state accumulator is lighter (producers can bring very light electric cars to the market), it pollutes very little (rarely it can catch fire) and above all it is able to contain more energy (this translates into greater autonomy in km for a full electric vehicle).
In conclusion, Imec states that it will be possible to work on more margins of improvement which will allow to bring the density of solid state batteries even to 1000 Wh / liter by 2024.
Unlike a lithium battery, which contains a fluid electrolyte, a solid-state unit has, in fact, a solid one. The cathode and anode always remain. This new composition brings with it several advantages.

For example, a solid-state accumulator is lighter (producers can bring very light electric cars to the market), it pollutes very little (rarely it can catch fire) and above all it is able to contain more energy (this translates into greater autonomy in km for a full electric vehicle).

https://www.imec-int.com/en/large-storage-solid-state-li-ion-batteries

Attila, good information. Us Brits are working fast on Graphene batteries. Looks like they too will offer massive range potential with very fast charge times.

The ideal would be to have graphene photovoltaic panels, apparently they will have a higher yield of 200%.
I think that solutions related to alternative electricity sources will give us great solutions within the next ten years, i hope more for our descendants who will thus have a hope of improving the quality of life.