Modern Vespa

I have a brand new 300 GTS Super with about 50 miles on it and I've noticed that the front break lever makes a squishy noise when you pump the break lever several times - is this normal?

Also, the front break lever is not as firm as the rear break lever - is this normal?

It sounds like you have air in your front brakes. It's easy enough to bleed the system and top-up with brake fluid, but I would take it back to the dealer you bought it from and let them do it. They must have missed it when they did their PDI checks. There should be no charge.

My 2020 GTS 300 has the same mushy front brake symptom.

I asked the same question over on the ADV forum .
One of the guy's there said he had taken his 2020 in for the first service and asked about it.

He was told that Piaggio/Vespa designed the system with more bias toward the back brake being more firm, to help prevent wheel lock up on the front with the ABS system. Due to more weight distribution towards the rear.

It sort of makes sense , but I would appreciate hearing from members on this forum as well. Before I accept that theory.

Thank you for any responses.

I haven't noticed that at all on my HPE. I'll pay particular attention next time I ride to see if I feel that brake lever difference.

I haven't noticed this on my 2020 GTS either.

"They must have missed it when they did their PDI checks. There should be no charge."

What is a PDI check?

Pre Delivery Inspection.

Bill x

I'm currently at 420miles and I have noticed my front brake is not as tight/firm as it was when I first purchased it. I will bring it up at my first service as well and see what they say. Are braided brake lines a thing for scooters?

Sorry, I call bollocks. With full front braking there is no weight at the rear - though a combination of ABS and ASR should prevent stoppies.

I'm not sure who or what to believe about the braking issue.

I'll ride with it for a bit then if it does not improve to my liking I'll go old school and just bleed the dam thing.
It looks like a real PITA job taking plastic fiddly bits off just to get to the brake reservoir .

On my GTS 300 the two brake levers feel about the same. But for the same hand pressure on the lever the rear brake works quite a bit better than the front.
I still mostly use the front brake to even out the wear between the two tyres so I can replace them both at the same time.

Can you slowly pull the brake lever all the way back to the grip? If you pull it hard, then let off and pull it hard again, does it go back closer to the grip?

My 2020 is similar. The front brake has more lever movement for the same effect than the rear. Given this is my first scooter, I thought maybe it's a Vespa thing, given all my other bikes have rear brake foot pedals rather than hand levers, I don't have a direct comparison.

If it is under warranty, bring it to those who sold it

Won't go all the way back to the grip.

It seems to get closer to the grip by pulling it back multiple times. But still never touches the grip. It basically just feels more spongy than the rear brake.

... there seems to be air in the circuit ...

Mine does not go all the way back to the grip , either from pulling it hard,let off and pull hard again.
Distance from the grip is maybe a half inch. Kind of hard to get an accurate measurement .It just feels spongy ???

The rear is what I usually expect from at my experience as a former Burgman owner .

I went out for a putt around town and some back roads today before it got Africa hot.
I was constantly testing the brakes both front and rear.

Front :
The lever never pulled all the way back to the grip. I tried several times to use it alone , was able to slow the bike ok , but never locked the front wheel.
Did not feel any ABS kick in .
The lever would at times feel like it started braking harder and more firmly than at other times ??
I'm still not convinced that a good bleed of the front system might make me feel better. So I'll get around to it soon.

Rear Brake:
The rear feels like it did on my Burgman .
I was never able to get the ABS to kick in on this Vespa.

At no time did I feel like the bike was going to lock up and skid either tire, but I did not feel ABS kick in like you get in a car where the pedal starts to pulsate.

This brake thing is getting more interesting everyday.

I posted the same question over on ADV ; since then several more have noticed this spongy/mushy thing with the front brakes.

One reported that he had been to AF1 in Tx. saw several 2019 and 2020 models. He tried the front brakes on them and said the 2019 models felt like they were what he was used to.
The 2020 models all had much more travel in the lever .

Then a friend just picked up his 2020 GTS 300 and said he noticed a lot more lever travel on the front , but the rear was normal.

Does anyone here have a way to contact Piaggio directly , or the USA distributor to ask about this front brake lever excessive lever travel and the spongy feel ??????????????

We also have many similar cases (spongy feeling and big travel) in Greece and Piaggio is actually investigating it. As a first step, they have send us the 2015 directive on how to do a full bleed on the system. Some dealers have replaced both brake master cylinders and the ABS unit under warranty, but the problem reappeared after a few hundred Kms...

Last update was that the problem is still under investigation and dealers were instructed to NOT replace parts under warranty since the problem reappears...

Bought a new HPE GTS yesterday. All the 300's at the dealer had mushy / numb front brake.

I think they bled mine after it was scary bad on the demo ride. It's better now, but still not great.

Spongy lever can be a symptom of a failing ABS pump.

However... there's a difference between "feel" and actual braking effect.
How does it perform under emergency braking, is the stopping distance extended or does it pull up correctly?

Air in the system is a much bigger problem with ABS than without ABS, it can damage the ABS pump.
You don't want to have to pay for one of those, they are seriously expensive.
Piaggio won't want to pay for them either....

I would counsel against any attempt by an owner to bleed brakes on an ABS vehicle which is still under warranty, have the dealer inspect it.

In my case returning to the selling dealer is a problem.

I bought it several hundred miles from home since the closest dealer tried to sell me a 2018 as a 2020 model . Long story, not worth going in to .

Not sure I want to go there for any type of service , especially warranty work.

Never faced this kind of a dilema before with any new bike/scooter.

I'm good friends with the family that owns my dealership. My bike is going in on Wednesday for its first service so I will have them take a look and contact Piaggio to see if they have heard anything. My bike was their first 2020 so this will be the dealer's first 2020 with any maintenance other than pdis.

This is my first bike so I don't have much to relate it to but my rear brake seems to be the softer of the two. I'll pay more attention next time I ride it. I am also getting a clicking sound at low speeds that sounds clutch/trans related. (again, my first vespa so I don't know how everything works yet... sorry!)

I have the same symptoms. GTS 300 SS HPE. It wasn't like this from the beginning. Started 3 weeks ago, when we had 35-38 celsius couple of days.....

Braking is ok but the feeling is strange...

That about sums up my HPE. The manual states that braking should begin about 1/3 in as far as lever travel, and mine does, but it feels numb and not at all crisp.

The bike stops okay, but feedback is nil.

I heard that the ABS pump is different this year, and the brakes feel different as a result.

Speaking as a bike technician, there should be no mushy feel to the brake, no squishy sounds during brake operation, just a firm silent brake action that gives good braking with good fairly solid lever feel.

It does sound from what folks are posting that there may be an issue at the factory causing incorrect bleeding of the front brakes or an issue with the abs units allowing air into the system, or faulty seals being fitted. This has happened on other makes of bike too. It's easy for a few hundred bikes to pass out of the factory before something like this gets notices.

As jimc says, what DandyDoug has been told by an ADV forum about brake bias is totally incorrect concerning this matter

Totally agreed. Brakes should be firm. However, bike starts to do this after 4000km, not from the beginning. I was happy in the beginning by the acceleration and firm brakes ))

Now I am braking more with the rear because of the feeling. And is instinctually...

Old thread helped me a couple of days ago. No more spongy front brake. I too have 2019 HPE. I didn't want to use zip tie but a strap. Pressure on over night.

GTS 300 ABS front brake finally sorted

Thanks. it really worked. Now is firm. I am curious for how long.


Anyway, not a good image on the new one...brake "failing"

This just proves the brake system has air in it. This could be due to a fluid leak that has developed over the 4k you have covered or the air has been in the system on the abs pump side that was never bleed out properly at the factory. It then has worked it's way into the main system. Using the "strap up the lever" method, it's probable gone now as the air will have exited through the secondary fluid return port in the master cylinder. If it's a fluid leak you have, it'll come back.

Ok - I am going to try this - will let you know tomorrow how it worked! Thanks for the tip!!! Beats the hell out of taking it back to the dealer 140 miles away!!!

I can't see a need for using your brakes. If you want to slow down so often why not just buy a smaller slower scooter? Or a bicycle?

I was not sure if front brake was as it should when I finally got chance to test ride. But then I made a couple of harsh brakings on gravel to actuate abs pump. Now I think it is close to what should be. At least much better than during first 1400km which I have ridden from new.

It isn't a fluid leak, as it the level is full loking into the "window". I left it with a strap yesterday night for 10 hours and it's a firm again but not the same level as new or the rear break. I will strap it again tonight, to see if I will have any improvement....

A question though. Strapping can produce damage on the brake system?

No.

If it does there was something wrong at the beginning. You don't have to go crazy though. As he tells this video at about 10 min.

https://youtu.be/kvIxxgvllLA

Definitely much better!

Youtube video not working

Now it should work. It is how to bleed motorcycle ABS brakes but I found it interesting.

Try this:

https://youtu.be/kvIxxgvllLA