Modern Vespa

I didn't say that you did.

I'll rephrase -

What has a better build quality - A Royal Enfield from India or a mid range bike from China ?

Bill x

My wife who is an extremely good Chinese cook, has just made an Indian Curry using a recipe from an Indian sub contractor she's working with.
All fresh ingredients cooked in turn one after the other to produce one of the best home cooked genuine Indian meals I've ever had.

If it had been a Vindaloo, my Chinese wife's would have been outstanding I'm sure, Harbinger your 110% correct.

We don't know?!

Tell us.

Oh also about the Ural. I just think it's a really pretty bike . That's worth something to me. A beautiful Russian girl doesn't come cheap. Mind you to each their own. I had room in the stable for one more bike and after lots of thought I picked here. Winter riding is also a major plus. I have power to the bars, heated grips, Ural muffs and even just ordered the hearted blanket for the monkey. The sidecar has its own power adapter.

Bill Dog likes only italian roast pork: https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porchetta

Know it well. This place is a 5 minute walk from my condo and is amazing. Ironically it's the fried chicken sandwich I like the best but their pork sandwiches are also great. The poutine with crackling also amazing.

https://porchettaco.com/

Is there such a thing?



How about we rate Modern Vespa's?
Italian
Vietnamese
Indian

The Benelli 302r or the Benelli 600.

... I think we will be here to argue until hell freezes ...
I'm fine with it, I don't have much to do.

I think the Chinese Sinnis bikes look as well made as any Japanese bike but most Chinese bikes in general are bought simply because they are cheap. The person who's trying to save money on purchase is also likely to save money on servicing so, over time, they tend to become more and more unreliable.

The single cylinder Enfields are built with an engine design from the 1950's so I don't expect Honda like reliability. Saying that, I ride it nearly every day and I haven't noticed anything suspect on the bike as yet. Most folk who buy an Enfield tend to look after them because they particularly wanted an Enfield rather than because it was cheap. That means they tend to get serviced regularly.

The main thing is that it makes me smile every time I get on it and, at the end of the day, that's the real purpose of a PTW. It justifies the 1950's technology I ride, the money Harbinger paid for his Ural and the Italian engineering on our Vespas.

... oh well ... my scooter is built in Thailand so i'm partially involved. 8)

Not at all. You're just a little more sensible than the rest of us.

The fact is that I know well what it means to be nationalist (commercially) and it is not good because now everyone depends on everyone; economic isolationism in the times in which we live is not possible and is not convenient. We all try to pay everything right and have what we pay for, but to do so we must adopt so-called "economies of scale".
(The phrase is used economically to indicate the relationship between an increase in the production scale (of a company, a production unit or a plant) and a decrease in the unit cost of the product).
I try not to do politics but the subject is still touched ... just but it is, I am sorry but it serves to clarify.
I know ... I write too rich ... in Italian it is also more complex than in English.

With exception of the hastily blown in fork leg the build quality of the Continental GT is actually better than the Benelli.

The paint on the RA is thicker and the general finish feels like it's going to last longer.

The Benelli because of it's initial low price will be by comparison, disposable.

It's finish is adequate and it doesn't excel in any department so it feels a bit generic even if it's great to look at.

The Kymco finish beats them both but even this time machine isn't faultless as it has popped a fork seal at 1300 miles.

I think that the Chinese are making pretty good budget versions of others styles and shapes but I'd like to see more mid size bikes being released before I make more observations.

Bill x

On a temporal scale it is only recently that they have become producers of modern motorcycles and scooters, it took the Japanese thirty years to establish itself even qualitatively ...

Yes and Royal Enfield have been knocking then together since 1951 I believe.

Bill x

It is not correct, to be precise, Royal Enfield India was a subsidiary of the English one that produced and produced a "copy" of an old model for years and years; without putting one's own ideas and without investing in development in any direction. It has only recently renewed its range by introducing the Continental GT 530 with Italian components (could it be otherwise?) But the same engine. From very little it produces a new engine and therefore it can be said that evolution begins with the diversification of models and the production of its own engines.

That's why I said believe and didn't say it was a fact.

I kind of covered that when I said believe. I thought it was 1951 when they were made under licence in India to make bikes for the local Police Force.

Italian components ? Which ones because I've got one and it has doesn't have anything Italian on it.

The Continental GT was a 535cc single and it's no longer made. The new Continental is a 650 Twin.

As far as I know they have always made their own engines.

https://www.royalenfield.com/in/en/our-world/since-1901/

Bill x

Splatter

https://www.motociclismo.it/royal-enfield-continental-gt-lrsquoindiana-piu-veloce-e-divertente-moto-56232

Paioli rear shock absorbers
Pirelli tires
Brembo braking system

China has a booming aerospace/defense industry, including modern fighter planes and class-leading missiles.

They are clearly capable of world-class manufacturing. The question is, are they doing that with two-wheeled vehicles?

I suspect it is fairly common for a manufacturer to set the target price of a product first, then manufacture to that price. I doubt motorcycles are any different. If the Chinese or Indian engineers were allowed to double the price, I'm confident they could double the quality. For relatively cheap prices, they turn out 'good enough' goods. I suspect in their home markets the low price is more important.

Having said that, if RE brings out a 650 twin version of the Himalayan, I'll definitely be checking it out.

I think that a twin would be the wrong engine for that kind of bike.

It's heavy and lacks the torque that you need on off an off road bike.

A lighter. An over simple 600/650 single would be a better idea.

I'm waiting for that to happen.

Bill x

... and i ask you: how many failures have they collected and still collect today but don't tell us?
Like other countries in the world none of them declare failures, it would be counterproductive to the strategy ... for any strategy.

... if it took more than sixty years to make a new engine, we would have to hibernate ourselves to see something new ...

Not true.

Their range is expanding and they are selling more bikes than ever so they'll have enough in the bank to develop more power units.

Bill x

I hope so ... for them but also for us customers.

So which parts of Royal Enfields are Italian ? See above.

Bill x

Write on:

1 Why send me something in Italian ?

2 Why send me something something in Italian that can't be translated ?

No, There are no Itailian components in it and for the record the British invented the concept of the Cafe Racer which is why Royal Enfield made a 535cc version of a bike that they made years ago.

Bill x

[Royal Enfield Himalayan]I agree with Bill that the 650 twin wouldn't work well on the Himalayan. I suspect all they have to do is just coax a little more power out the current version (it's in a really low state of tune) and then raise the gearing just a little. That would make it better on fast roads but still keep it good on trails etc. You could add a power tronic ecu and probably get what you're after.

Itchy Boots tried that unit but returned it to standard OEM soon after.

I'd go for a 500cc version of that all day long which will leave them room to make a 600cc plus unit.

The 650 power plants are too big, too heavy and use revs rather than torque to produce their power.

They are also too wide and would have to sit too high for an off road chassis.

Bill x

You see NASA and Space X failures right on your TV when they happen.
And is there failure or just research letting you find out the wrong way to do something till you find the right way.

It wasn't a copy either. It was a version for the Indian market and in around 1952 they made them under licence until the British side collapsed.

The 535 Continental is just horrid to ride but it's rewarding when you get it right.

If I was going to keep it I'd get the front brake fixed, get a different seat and maybe change the bars.

Would it be worth it ? I'm really not sure.

Bill x

Obviously yes but covering all the failures to give the impression of conceiving infallible projects is a deception made to make people believe things that do not exist. Not in western countries, here the press is free and not controlled and what happens is known (more or less ...).
Returning to the topic, I reply to Bill that it is not a shame to admit that there are motorcycles with Made in Italy components; Brembo, also through the ByBre brand, supplies many car and motorcycle brands all over the world.
If you use Google Chrome to open the page and then click on it with the right mouse button, the menu with Translate in options opens.
Give it a go.
PS: italian designers invented the Cafè Race style motorcycles and we were also the first to sell them directly without making pre-existing motorcycle preparations, an example:



Moto Morini Tresette Sprint 1958 and many others italian sport motorcycles from the mid-1950s onwards; those who came later copied the style, it didn't matter that the bikes were small, it mattered the line.

This is the bike that the Continental is modelled on.

The Italians did not invent Cafe Racers. It started in the UK in the 1960's after the bikers would race either from cafe to cafe for out and back to the cafe so you can't claim that I'm afraid because it's wrong.

Yes the Continental has Bembro brakes but they are still total shit on that bike.

I'm sorry but much as I try to read your text I spend too much time trying to figure out what you're trying to say I often just give up and go and make some coffee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9_racer

... it's not important, the truth is like math ...

Well it is if your'e basing your posts on opinion and not fact.

I'll engage with fact and personal experience not hearsay and invention.

I've been relentlessly critical of other brands but only because they have failed on me.

To suggest that the Italians invented Cafe Racers is laughable.

Bill x

Anyway I think that the conclusion that we could draw is that Chinese motorcycles are good, but not amazing.

They are cheap, reliable and accessible. Ideal for someone who want's to learn their craft, commute or deliver fast food.

You won't get anything ground breaking but you will get a solid ride on a budget.

Maybe we should revisit this after a few years when they have broadened their range ?

Bill x

Well, that killed the conversation didn't it ?

Bill x

I have been perusing the online dealers just to stay in touch. I sighted this little bike and was shocked at the specs. I wonder whose engine they borrowed? Even better it comes from Vitacci. LOL

https://www.superiorpowersports.com/250cc_Motorcycle_Vitacci_GTO_Sport_Bike_p/vt250mc-gto.htm

Engine Water-cooled 2-cylinder four-stroke
Displacement 250
Max power 17.5 kw /7500 rpm （24hp)
Torque 24.7 N.m /6000 rpm
Starter Electric
Ignition ECU

Is it me or does that sound a little bit too Italian if you catch my drift.

Bill x