Modern Vespa

I'm considering a Sei Giorni. The 2020 engine performance certainly sounds good. But I like the green color of the 2019. I'm not sure that the price difference between the two is a big deal to me. My question is the possible reliability issues that may pop up with the first year of the HPE engine. Anyone have thoughts on the subject?

Thanks,
Bill

www.italianmotofest.com

HPE hasn't been out long enough to have any reliability data. But, these engines are pretty simple anyway, so I don't expect much variation over older ones.

Had my HPE about 2 months now. Not long enough for issues to creep up, but enjoying it thus far.

Based solely on two things, that it's the first year of a new engine design, and the reputation for reliability of motor vehicles where it's made, what do you think?
I'm waiting to see what happens when Americans get their hands on the new MP3 HPE and get those barreling down the interstate at 80 plus mph.

Engine is about the same than before. . Some visual changes and fine tuning. Doesn't mean it's unreliable.

If you are of the opinion that Vespas are extremely reliable, then it probably won't be unreliable. It might just break, in a not unreliable way, more often.

Salutes.

Here's the thing that few people realise.

It's not a good idea to buy a new vehicle or even a face lifted version in the first 6 months from release as many or the ghosts in the machine havn't been ironed out.

Sure the manufacturers test the products to a certain extent but often not enough so when you get your hands on it something will fail.

It's easier for the makers to keep making and selling it rather than halt production to fix an issue. To do that would prevent the product getting to the showrooms and of course keep the customers who have ordered it waiting.

When you have a niche product that owners feel so passionate about they will forgive it's every failing the manufacturer can get away with murder and they are counting on that.

The JLR Group are absolute Champions at this.

Even the Germans who put more into the R and D than even Hodna and Volvo are guilty of it so do yourself a favour wait until everyone else's breaks and then buy one.

Bill x

Based on your original assessment of the HPE engine, it's the same engine as before and it doesn't have bigger valves, or different camshaft or different cylinder head! It's just window dressing. lol. It seems you accept it's a different very revised engine now.

To the OP. I don't think you need to worry. Several in my area have done quite a few miles in the last 6 months. One in particular has covered over 8k miles without a single issue. I speak with their owners once a week at bike night and they seem really stoked by their new bikes!

Hopefully no one thinks Vespa or any Italian vehicle is extremely reliable.

I've had many Italian cars and vans and each one has been totally reliable. Beat the hello out of Ford and Vauxhall. My Vespa is only 2.5yrs old but has also been totally reliable. Even Ducati are now totally reliable. What is the world coming to! lol

No doubt but everyone had a Grandad that smoked 40 a day and lived to 95.

The used car value of an Italian cars goes through the floor after 3 years to the point where car dealerships won't even bother retailing a car that's out of warranty because there's little point in spending any money on it.

There's a reason for that.

The reason that Ducati are now reliable is because they are now owned by the Germans.

Bill x

Funny you should mention that. My father passed away a week ago. Smoked 4-5 packs a day and took Viagra by the truck load! He was 93yo. We should all be so lucky.

Thank you all for joining this discussion. I appreciate the input. BTW, I am not new to Italian vehicles. That little little voice in my head says go with the prior years model. But I wanted feedback.

Thanks,
Bill

Wow, that really is a life lived.

I'm a little envious of him.

Ride safe.

Bill x

Funny that's exactly how I felt about my BMW convertible when I traded it in for a Subaru.

It's mostly because of the way the cars are designed bill, not because they are particularly unreliable. Interiors are poorly designed, materials used are not great, but they last well enough. But on the secondhand market, folks pass them buy on the forecourt beacause of it. The best bit is you can pick up a decent used Fiat for peanuts and drive it for years without issue. The build quality on some Fiats for example isn't great but they are reliable and they just keep on going. Engines and gearboxes are not normally any problem at all. All 3 of of my Fiat vans covered in excess of 130,000 miles without any issues, just normal servicing and my wifes Fiat cars (two of them) also covered in excess of 100,000 trouble free miles. That's the norm, not the exception.

No it's because Paiggio redesigned the engines and started fitting quality parts. It took them to the next level. The Germans got a bargain when they took over but of course have made further refinements.

I wasn't aware that there was a Ducati/Piaggio connection.

I thought that they were tied up with Aprilia and Moto Guzzi

This recent survey proves you wrong. Fiat are second from bottom in the reliability stakes.

Second from bottom.

https://europe.jdpower.com/press-releases/2019-uk-vehicle-dependability-study

Bill x

I'm more intrigued how far down Toyota is on that list.

I was surprised to see BMW at the bottom.

How did that happen ?

Bill x

Maybe 'cause there's no dip-stick on newer BMWs?

The same on Jaguar Land Rover products.

What could go wrong ?

I'm pretty certain that there isn't a case that Piaggio were spending more money on Ducati.

The only connection I know of is when the Chinese stators failed on the European GTS's and Piaggio turned to Ducati to make them which is ironic.

The reason that Audi got Ducati for a steal was because they were running close to the bone.

If Paiggio put money into Ducati ( which is in doubt ) why didn't they put it into their own products ?

Bill x

Sorry to hear about your father--that is hard no matter what his age. As far as your question goes, the HPE has a lower top speed--it is limited to 75 mph, although it makes more power and accelerates faster than the pre-2020 models. The is also a thread here about the front brake feeling mushy for some owners, with one owner reporting that his dealer told him the abs system was redesigned and that there are now widespread problems with front brake feel. I understand that on a forum like this, problems are magnified because people having concerns come here to discuss them. Still though, the 75 mph limit is documented and it is the first year for a redesign. Just how much is the extra power worth to you? You can buy a low mileage pre-2020 for a lot less than a new HPE.

Do you know the reason they didn't sell Ducati when they ran into problems with the diesel emission standards and selling Ducati did come up as a possible way to raise money?

We have sold over 30 of them and they are perfect.

They have only come back for routine 1st and now second services.

Buy either with supreme confidence.

Best,
SDG

I often wondered why Audi bought Ducati.

Maybe there was a plan to turn it around to sell it at a later date or maybe VW just wanted to own another badge ?

Who knows.

Bill x

Because JD Powers only gets info from NEW car buys. They don't do surveys 4 years down the road. They do NEW CAR Surveys. Most buys are contacted within 6 months of buying the vehicle.

Well that was the title of the survey so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Do you think that after 6 months the cars will get magically become more reliable ?

After working for VW, Audi, BMW, Land Rover and Porsche you kind of get a feeling for certain brands.........

You see I speak from experience. Vehicle Appraisal experience.

Bill x

That may be true for Italian cars, but there is this NY Times article about the resale value of all vehicles, and how nothing comes close to a Vespa.

From the article: Just saying.

Fiat riding high in this one also.

94 out of 100.

This one is for Europe.

https://www.reliabilityindex.com/top-100

Bill x

In fact, the JD Power surveys are conducted by survey to targeted customers who own the cars over a period of time which encompasses cars that are new and cars that are 2,3 & 4 years old. I've been part of several surveys over a 14 year period. This has encompassed several makes of car that my wife and I own/ed.

The main statistic that everyone is interested in initially is the number of faults a car experiences during it's first year. JD counts these as the number of faults per 100 cars. It's the one the manufacturers are most interested in. These are listed by model not just by brand.

Fiat are indeed a very reliable brand...still Bill. The JD survey showing a car near or at the bottom of the list doesn't necessarily mean a car in unreliable. But it's a measure of how every manufacturer improves each year. So you get a leap frogging of manufacturers and position changing each year. Mercedes is nearly always at the bottom of the survey, as is BMW but their car are very reliable. My last Mercedes was totally reliable but lots of things on it broke. It never let me down even though I covered upwards of 30,000 miles a year in it. The sort of things that broke were stupid electrical components, switches, seat adjustment, steering rack broke and was fixed by garage in just 1hr, but it kept going always. BMW is the same, things break on them, as they do on Fiat. Fiat have always usually been a midway car in the list. But Fiat has lacked money of late and has been slow to introduce new ways of building and keeping up with it's competitors resulting in it slipping down the list. But actual reliability is still ok. You have to know how to interpret the stats.

It's useful information Bill.

I prefer to look at the Manufacturers ratings first as that is a much clearer guide as to how their cars are doing. The model rating you link to is not as relevant to newer cars and doesn't indicate so clearly how the manufacturers are doing. My brand new car doesn't appear in that list yet but the model has been out for 2 years now. That's no good if you want the information now. but obviously a good sign that my car is not breaking down or breaking things!

JD Power is the main survey all manufacturers look at. Few others matter. This is because JD leaves not stone unturned.

The Fiat as a manufacturer is at the bottom of this list.

https://www.cars.com/articles/consumer-reports-reliability-study-toyota-thrives-fiat-fails-1420682551916/

That's the manufacturer and not a particular vehicle.

Bill x

It's not worth looking at any of the 'consumer' surveys Bill like the one you link to which is I believe a US market study. They do give an indicator of the state of play but don't have the credibility manufacturers crave. The only proper trade study that matters is JD Power and is the one ALL manufacturers take note of because it's the biggest and most comprehensive study in the world. It's also proven to be the most accurate in study after study. If you take a look at the links below you'll see that manufacturers rankings alter each year as newer models become more mature and break fewer things because the manufacturers become better at building a particular model which raises the manufacturers dependability rating. That's crucial to all of them as they jostle for better positons in the table.

However, it's easy to misinterpret these figures. A car at the bottom of the list or a manufacturer at the bottom of the list doesn't necessarily mean their cars break down or are in any way unreliable although that's the impression the surveys give. Remember, with the dependability study from JD it's all about how many faults occur in 100 new cars. JD does other mature car studies also. Most faults are very very minor but will show up on the study if it's a warranty job. It might just be the interior mirror has fallen off the windscreen. Or the interior light in the back of the car has stopped working. Maybe the paint develops a problem etc. It's mostly faults like that these days that we are talking about since manufacturers are so good at building engines and gearboxes now (unless they are VAG group cars!).

I wouldn't pretend that Fiat are the best brand car or van out there, Fiat are indeed nearly at the bottom of the survey currently but not the bottom. they are often in the midrange area of the studies. We bought 7 brand new Fiats from 2007 onwards which included 3 vans and in total 4 cars. Two of the cars we kept for 8 years each and the vans for 4 years a piece. Never had any issues with them. Our Ford cars (2) and Transit vans (4) all had major problems requiring new engines, new gearboxes on several of them, a whole new side to one 2 year old Transit due to major corrosion etc etc. Nightmare. Now those were poor quality vehicles due to the shear volume of problems, some very serious. Ford even paid us compensation over the amount of warranty work needed to keep them going. Needless to say we have never bought Ford again. Yet at the time Ford was nearer the upper range of manufacturer and like us, many operators of Fords were getting the same issues as we did. Work that one out.

https://europe.jdpower.com/press-releases/2019-uk-vehicle-dependability-study

https://europe.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2018-uk-vehicle-dependability-study

You only want to discount it because it doesn't suit you.

You wanted a manufactures standing in the reliability stakes and you got it.

Fiat as a brand are unreliable. Chrysler, Lancia, Alfa Romeo et all I'm sorry but that's a fact.

If a fuel filler cap refuses to open or your engine detonates its a failure so you can't really separate the two because one didn't stop the car.

If my sat nav fails because it's an integral part of the car it's still a failure.

Sorry.

Bill x

Since I started riding/driving in 1961,i've had a lot of Italian cars & bikes,5 x Guzzis & at least 10 Italian cars,the first one was a late 50's 500 & we now have a Panda Twinair,that we bought new in 2012,which has 81K miles & has given no more trouble than any vehicle we have owned & the build/interior quality is vastly better than the 50's & 60's Fiats/Alfas/Lancia we had.
This is 2019 not the dreaded 70's when everything rotted as you looked at it & yes the Italian electrics are now as good as any other of the highly priced & esteemed vehicles costing 3 or 4 times as much,oh & just as a bonus our Panda actually has character & feel,do you remember when all cars & bikes had that.

I don't doubt that all of that is true but try this when you have nothing to do.

Get talking to anyone involved with the car industry who isn't involved with trying to sell you a Fiat and ask them what they think of the brand.

I don't know any more than you because I've never owned one but I have experience with used cars and why they are worth what they are.

Sorry and all that.

Bill x

Oh yes, I'm not saying Fiat is a marvellous brand. I think many would agree that Fiat and the other makers you mention are not premium brand on build, fit or finish, but they are as reliable as most other brands. In fact in terms of breaking down, cars are all pretty much the same these days. I'm saying that even a car at the very bottom of the manufacturers ratings list is 10 times more reliable than a car at the bottom of the list was 10 years ago. Everyone has raised their game. It's a fact backed up by the stats and the amount of warranty work carried out. Mostly, gone are the days when there were wholesale horror stories of engines going bang all the time. It simply doesn't happen on the scale it did a few years back. It's in no small part thanks to JD Power that standards have been raised.

The manufacturers standing in the lists are mostly even more important than the individual model listings. Find a good manufacturer and then take a look at the model listings. No good buying from a duff manufacturer if they only have a couple of good models. It won't last.

On the subject of Piaggio and Ducati. Piaggio invested huge amounts of money in the brand and made it largely what it is today. Piaggio also owned Moto Guzzi and one or two other brands, doing the same for them too, making them a better bike, but decided to rationalise it's badges when the world economy became very tight. Audi bought the Ducati brand to gain it's technology for use in it's cars, and to dabble in bikes. Not sure that was a good thing or not.

Hi,Bill.Well in a former life before I became old & useless,i worked in the Motor trade(mainly car sales)from the mid 70's until the mid 90's & to be honest I wouldn't give twopence for an an opinion from most people in the car trade.
Just to be clear I was talking about build quality & reliability not value,whatever you're riding/driving,if you take your vehicle to a different franchise dealer they'll give you a dozen or so reasons why they have to value it at peanuts& i'm sure like me,you've heard it all.

Totally agree!

By the way, I'm sure you are not useless whatever age you are!

Totally agree!

By the way, I'm sure you are not useless whatever age you are![/quote]

Well i'm 74(just) ,I don't particulary think i'm old & useless,just society in general does, it's getting that way that I'm twitchy about watching the telly,a lot of younger people nowadays,seem to think my generation are pretty much the scourge of mankind,so I tend to keep my head down & hang around on bike & guitar type forums,where at least we're allowed to pipe up now & again with just the occasional pat on the head.

Build quality and reliability equates to value plus mileage and condition of course.

I'm still not convinced that there's a connection between Piaggio and Ducati.

Ducati's build quality went up after Audi bought them.

As for Audi buying Ducati for their technology that's just wrong. It's an opinion. I know this because I've worked for Audi. If it was true Audi's would have Desmodromic Valves and they don't

Audi's technical abilities go way beyond Ducati's as they have about 7 other brands resources to call on. So when was the last time you saw a V Twin A1 ?

There's a true story about Mussolini sending Hilter some fighter planes at the beginning of the Second World War. I think he sent them back or they sat unused for the entire war.

Land Rovers blow their engines up all the time. I know because I worked for them as well as Porsche, BMW and VW and their units aren't bullet proof either.

Don't see any mention of Piaggio in this list so when did they own them ?

Ownership
Since 1926, Ducati has been owned by a number of groups and companies.

1926-1950 - Ducati family
1950-1967 - Government Istituto per la Ricostruzione Industriale (IRI) management
1967-1978 - Government EFIM management (control over day-to-day factory operations)
1967-1973 - Headed By Giuseppe Montano[8]
1973-1978 - Headed by Cristiano de Eccher[9]
1978-1985 - VM Group
1985-1996 - Cagiva Group
1996-2005 - Texas-Pacific Group (US-based) ownership and going public
Headed by CEO Federico Minoli, 1996-2001; returning for 2003-2007
2005-2008 - Investindustrial Holdings S.p.A.
2008-2012 - Performance Motorcycles S.p.A.[10]
An investment vehicle formed by Investindustrial Holdings, BS Investimenti and Hospitals of Ontario Pension Plan
19 July 2012 - present - Automobili Lamborghini S.p.A.[2]
AUDI AG acquired 100% of the voting rights of Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. via Audi's Automobili Lamborghini S.p.A. subsidiary

Bill x