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Seen in comp.risks, a security newsgroup (remember those?). Worth a good read though. Please don't make this political - I'm just posting this to alert anyone who cares to listen to the dangers that may be inflicted on our successors.
comp.risks Risks Digest 31.39 wrote:
Subject: Sometimes simplicity is dangerous ...
From: Rob Slade <rmslade>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:28:40 -0800

We, in security, hate complexity.

Complexity is the enemy of security.

KISS, for us, isn't just an admirable principle, it's almost a way of life.
We want to keep things as simple as possible, since they are going to get
complex enough eventually anyway, and we *hate* that.

But sometimes life is just complex, and there's nothing we can do about it.

So, what has prompted this rumination on my part?

Well, suddenly everyone has become aware that the Amazon rainforest is
burning. This isn't new, of course. We should have been aware that the
rainforest was burning some time ago. It's been burning for quite a while.
But, hey, so what? There have been forest fires in other places, and we've
survived. And most of us don't even know anyone who speaks Portuguese, so
what's the problem?

To understand that, you need to know about geology.

There are different types of soils in the world. They have different
components, one of which is regolith. Regolith is the breakdown product of
the underlying rock. It contributes elements which, in turn, fix or release
nutrients that plants need to grow. There are different soils, but they all
have regolith.

Except for tropical soil.

The soil in the Amazon rainforest has so little contribution from regolith
that it doesn't matter. So how do things grow, without the nutrient boost?

To understand that, you need to understand biology and ecology.

Trees grow in the tropical rainforest. Other plants grow on the trees.
Because they have no roots, they collect water in pouches and cups. The
water, as well as watering the plant, collects and kills bugs to get
nutrients that those plants use to grow. The insects eat fruit and leaves
up in the trees. Other animals eat fruit and drop the husks and leaves down
to the ground. The leaf litter gets cut up by ants who use it to farm mold.
Et cetera, et cetera until we get back to the trees. All of the huge
complicated process has to go on to provide nutrients for the tropical soil,
without which none of it lives.

That's why ten percent of the *total* biodiversity on the planet is in the
Amazon alone. They need it.

Stand in a hemlock forest, and all you have is the canopy above you. Except
for the dead branches that poke you and grab your clothes, there is nothing
to impede you below that. Tropical rainforests have five separate and
distinct layers, starting at the top canopy.

But what does this have to do with the fires?

Well, we (most of us) live in temperate rainforests. We don't understand
the problem with forest fires. Fires go on all the time. Fires are
actually useful in some ways. In the eastern forests, the First Nations
used to set fires to make the land more productive. In the west, we know
that, even if we weren't throwing cigarette butts around with gay abandon,
the storms from the ocean (that bring the rain), also bring thunderstorms,
and therefore lightning, and therefore, even without us, forest fires are a
natural part of the forest growth, ecology, and procession.

That's not the case in tropical rainforests.

In temperate rainforests, after the fire goes through, all we have to do is
plant douglas fire, and, within a few years, the trees are taller than we
are and there are mice and salal and mule deer and blackberries and bears
are pooping in the woods fertilizing the douglas fir.

(And we have to hurry to plant the douglas fir, because, if we don't, five
minutes after the fire goes through alder starts growing. We'll still have
a forest, just with a different economic value.)

That's not the case in tropical rainforests.

After a fire, you can't just plant some trees. You've got this whole
complex system that means that the fact that some insect you can't even name
is missing means that *that* frog doesn't pollinate *that* bush which
doesn't feed *that* fish and the whole thing falls apart. (Or, more likely,
doesn't start in the first place.)

In the tropical forest, after a fire, the grass (and crops, if you plant
them), grow spectacularly. The first year. The second year, the grass is
great. The third year, it's pretty good. After that, it's crap. Because
the system isn't putting anything back into the soil.

In the temperature rainforest, the rains come from the ocean. (Remember?)
Even if we burned down all the trees, the rains would still come. Not in
the tropical rainforest. Most of the rain comes from the forest itself.
The trees are lifting tons of water into the atmosphere every day. It takes
energy. And that's part of the reason that tropical rainforests have so
much rain, and are four or five degrees cooler than tropical savannah.

If we leave burned areas in the tropics alone, they might recover. But,
whereas in the temperate rainforests it takes years, in the tropics it takes
an equivalent number of millennia. The soil is dead, the land is in
drought, and isolated stands of forest will probably die, unless they are
miles in extent.

OK, now look at a map of the world. Can you find the Amazon? Remember that
not all of that bump is, in fact, the Amazon. Not even all of Brazil is all
Amazon.

And that part of that bump recycles 20% of all the oxygen in the
atmosphere. And when we lose that oxygen recycling capacity, we lose that
carbon sequestration capacity, all that rain, and that biodiversity (and all
the undiscovered pharmaceuticals it contains). And it won't grow back.

That's why a few fires in another country far away are important ...
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Thanks Jim. That was interesting.

Best
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The butterfly effect.
When will we learn.
So sad.😢
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That was well written, thanks for sharing!
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I bet
Given that the forest has been there for a very, very long time, I'd have to bet that the system is far more robust than scientists are claiming.

Logic dictates that a fragile system under random inputs will tend to fall apart.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the forest to regenerate. Not that the fires are a good thing, but they will certainly add to our knowledge of ecosystems.

I suspect that, when scientists identify a particular animal/plant in a particular niche, they assume nothing else can fill that role. Perhaps that is incorrect.

Not to mention that there is nothing sacred about the present ecology. If a different ecology takes its place, with different animals and plants, well, that's the way it goes.
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... in my area it is more than twenty years that the fireflies have disappeared ... even the bees have almost disappeared. But dear gentlemen, we must stop throwing CO2 into the atmosphere ... somehow we will have to provide for it. I, for example, am a supporter of Greenpeace with small money donation.
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Hilton wrote:
The butterfly effect.
When will we learn.
So sad.😢
And like a neighbor of mine said probably 30 years ago in regards to pollution.

It's like having a swimming pool, if on little boy takes a leak in your pool no one will ever notice. But if 1,000 little boys take a leak in to your pool, now you might start to notice.

There may not be one simple solution to the problems but to start out claiming there is no problem to begin with is just asking for trouble.

There can at some point be the snowball effect.

If I toss a snowball out in my back yard this winter there will probably be no problem, unless I hit may wife! Now if I took that same snowball and tossed it down the side of some mountain in the Alps under the right condition it could take out a whole village.
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If we have learned anything in the past 100 years it is that the world we live in is very complex.

We are experiencing a significant climate change that scientists agree is significantly worsened by human activity.

The biggest problem we have is that we humans have a limited ability to absorb and adapt to change. The technology that is now a factor driving our activities is changing on an exponential basis and is now beyond most people's capacity to adapt.

The smartphones we take for granted have been with us for a very, very, very short time, not even two decades.

Many of us react to the exponential pace of change by wishing for simpler times. Like when I was a kid 50 or 60 years ago and things were simple. Cars didn't have seatbelts, there was no internet, and the most amazing thing was man landing on the moon.

Addressing climate change effectively is very, very complex, and time is not our friend. We need solutions that are global in scope. No nation's singular efforts, no matter how vigorous and effective, will solve the problem.

Politicians in many countries are pandering to the lowest common denominator in their electorates, people who are ignorant of the climate problem, prone to denial, and more than willing to follow leaders with simple ineffective plans that will exacerbate climate change rather than seeking to heal the planet.

This year I joined Canada's federal Green Party. My concern is that my 'green vote' will be a waste, or worse, allow climate-weak political parties to gain even more traction.

But I have to do something.

We should all do something.
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At most of the company's I've worked, my coworkers responded to my conservativeness with, "why do you care, it's not your money".
Now at work. I tell the young people, "in 20 years, everyone is going to be scrambling around like a fire ant nest that's been kicked"
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Re: I bet
Jimding wrote:
It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the forest to regenerate. Not that the fires are a good thing, but they will certainly add to our knowledge of ecosystems.


Not to mention that there is nothing sacred about the present ecology. If a different ecology takes its place, with different animals and plants, well, that's the way it goes.
What concerns me, is that there's been a headlong rush to exploit the region. Now that there is forest destruction, I'm expecting an increase pressure to convert to agriculture....more soybeans, etc. No regeneration there.

You're right about different ecology taking over. The Sahara is a good example. Nerd emoticon
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Not so much
Hilton wrote:
The butterfly effect.
It's more like the Elephant in the room effect
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A few years of more cows and more soy, then that decline and starvation and human migration to find that necessary stuff, food.. and where in the world will they all go? 1 small planet, no mega-space habitat to move to, no nearby planets. . . .
In 1973 the USA had a short term foreign oil embargo and some areas actually did run out of gas, about every Friday, where I was, 17 and miles from my family or his, gas delivery on Monday or Tuesday, but in areas of rural western Colorado, ya, we would have every gas station out of gas.
And a government that said we would push and develop renewables and we would never be dependent on foreign oil again.
That didn't happen, but it changed my view of a lot of things, I care, I haves watched my carbon footprint and tried to keep it small as I can, I put high mpg on the top of that list when looking for vehicles and 1 of the very best things about my rides, all of them, is that high fuel economy and the durability, since there seem to be a lot of vintage Piaggio rides out there, still running, that's the proof of durable, which does have a plant wide impact, maybe not a big 1, but every tiny bit matters, and those scooters have hand made shopping bags to carry home my shopping. I just want a longer riding season.
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5 Steps
1 Eat less meat

2 Drive a smaller car

3 Don't go on cruises

4 Have less children, if any at all.

5 Fly less.

Thank you for calling.

Bill x
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Pollution
I remember the governing phrase of a city garbage manager I worked with some 50 years ago.

As his crew loaded up a barge to be towed and dumped into the Atlantic -
"The solution to pollution is dilution"

That phrase is now coming back to haunt us.
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Re: Pollution
EN82pg wrote:
I remember the governing phrase of a city garbage manager I worked with some 50 years ago.

As his crew loaded up a barge to be towed and dumped into the Atlantic -
"The solution to pollution is dilution"

That phrase is now coming back to haunt us.
Yes, what happens when you run out of the diluent?
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Re: Pollution
EN82pg wrote:
I remember the governing phrase of a city garbage manager I worked with some 50 years ago.

As his crew loaded up a barge to be towed and dumped into the Atlantic -
"The solution to pollution is dilution"

That phrase is now coming back to haunt us.
Yes, what happens when you run out of the diluent?
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Re: Pollution
kshansen wrote:
EN82pg wrote:
I remember the governing phrase of a city garbage manager I worked with some 50 years ago.

As his crew loaded up a barge to be towed and dumped into the Atlantic -
"The solution to pollution is dilution"

That phrase is now coming back to haunt us.
Yes, what happens when you run out of the diluent?
Exactly.
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Most of these comments are blatently political! Allowed?
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Re: 5 Steps
Bill Dog wrote:
1 Eat less meat

2 Drive a smaller car

3 Don't go on cruises

4 Have less children, if any at all.

5 Fly less.

Thank you for calling.

Bill x
5 steps

1 Eat less meat

I've been doing this for 5 years already

2 Drive a smaller car

In Italy almost all cars are small and go even with LPG (mine which is 4 cylinders and 1,600 cc)) and methane

3 Do not go on a cruise

The only cruise I know is that of the Vespa engine

4 Have fewer children, if any.

Never married and no illegitimate children

5 Fly less.

I take a ride with the T7-FSV https://www.aeroclublatina.it/ every so often

Thanks for call.

But think yes, ooops...si capisco e... please.
⚠️ Last edited by Attila on UTC; edited 1 time
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zigzagguzzi wrote:
Most of these comments are blatently political! Allowed?
... I hope not mine, my friend zigzag ... if they were, mine i would cancel them, but in my defense I say that it depends on the country where you live.
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Most, not all.
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zigzagguzzi wrote:
Most of these comments are blatently political! Allowed?
How so??
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Re: 5 Steps
Bill Dog wrote:
1 Eat less meat

2 Drive a smaller car

3 Don't go on cruises

4 Have less children, if any at all.

5 Fly less.

Thank you for calling.

Bill x
Hehe... Fly less, but totally omit cruises? Some personal bias perchance?
Laughing emoticon
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zigzagguzzi wrote:
Most of these comments are blatently political! Allowed?

Shhh emoticon
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Re: 5 Steps
Attila wrote:
no illegitimate children

.
Sicuro?
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Re: 5 Steps
Sledge wrote:
Attila wrote:
no illegitimate children

.
Sicuro?
...ooops...
Before 2004 year i don't know but after i'm sure, the treatment to which I was subjected to massive doses of somatostatin sterilized me "the plumbing" while making it work (I hope I didn't make a politically incorrect statement) but the hammer still works.
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David Masse wrote:
when I was a kid 50 or 60 years ago and things were simple. Cars didn't have seatbelts, there was no internet, and the most amazing thing was man landing on the moon.
Now we have three-point seat belts, airbags, automatic braking and collision warning systems; the internet in our pocket; and the most amazing thing will be a person landing on the moon.
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Re: Not so much
znomit wrote:
Hilton wrote:
The butterfly effect.
It's more like the Elephant in the room effect
this^
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EN82pg wrote:
zigzagguzzi wrote:
Most of these comments are blatently political! Allowed?
How so??
Agree. how is saying destroying the environment is a bad idea political?

Would one say I was being "political" if I was to say eating fish from a lake contaminated with mercury was a dumb idea? Or that saying it was not a good idea to dump know carcinogens on to the drinking water of a city was wrong?
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delete duplicate post
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... the forbidden planet ... it was a film where an entity created by nightmares materialized and destroyed people and things. It could be argued that the environmental topic itself is in some respects the sides to be censored due to the taking of positions of the lobby to which it annoys to talk about it, so politically ... twisted? Biffa as Bx says
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kshansen wrote:
EN82pg wrote:
zigzagguzzi wrote:
Most of these comments are blatently political! Allowed?
How so??
Agree. how is saying destroying the environment is a bad idea political?

Would one say I was being "political" if I was to say eating fish from a lake contaminated with mercury was a dumb idea? Or that saying it was not a good idea to dump know carcinogens on to the drinking water of a city was wrong?
I suppose just about any issue can have a political angle to it. Sadly, environmental issues have been politicized and become divisive. I'd like to think a healthy planet is something we should all be interested in supporting. Nerd emoticon
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Some people believe the climate is changing, just not that man is the main reason. That is the political divide.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@madison_sully avatar
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2013 Piaggio BV 350, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7658
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
UTC quote
zigzagguzzi wrote:
Some people believe the climate is changing, just not that man is the main reason. That is the political divide.
....aaaannd who brought that up?
UTC

Member
sprint 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 24
Location: phoenix
 
Member
sprint 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 24
Location: phoenix
UTC quote
Came here for Vespa and came out smarter about the world. Awesome.
@fledermaus avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS (running like a charm!) 2017 BV 350
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12376
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@fledermaus avatar
2007 LX150 2015 GTS (running like a charm!) 2017 BV 350
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12376
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
UTC quote
zigzagguzzi wrote:
Some people believe the climate is changing, just not that man is the main reason. That is the political divide.
The climate is changing. That's fact. Whether it's man-made or not is in the realm of science, not politics.
UTC

Enthusiast
1987 Honda Helix
Joined: UTC
Posts: 67
Location: Houston Tx
 
Enthusiast
1987 Honda Helix
Joined: UTC
Posts: 67
Location: Houston Tx
UTC quote
I've lived in (or near) Houston for 68 years. I can't tell that there has been any change in the weather. I'm not against conservation and my ecological footprint is a lot lighter than most. But I'm suspicious of scientists who are paid to raise alarm so that they can continue endless studies. I'm also skeptical of the radical changes being pushed when the effects are unproven and it is not even known if the changes in climate are good or bad. Lastly, I don't mind a good discussion, but scare tactics (like we only have 12 years left) only make me more suspicious. All you old timers out there, have you noticed any changes in your neck of the woods?
@david_masse avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS 300 i.e. ABS sold, 2010 Vespa GTS 300 ie Super (sold) & 2003 Honda Shadow VT750 ACE (sold) & 2006 Vespa LX150 (sold)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3200
Location: Toronto (formerly Montreal)
 
Ossessionato
@david_masse avatar
2016 Vespa GTS 300 i.e. ABS sold, 2010 Vespa GTS 300 ie Super (sold) & 2003 Honda Shadow VT750 ACE (sold) & 2006 Vespa LX150 (sold)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3200
Location: Toronto (formerly Montreal)
UTC quote
Chasbro wrote:
... All you old timers out there, have you noticed any changes in your neck of the woods?
Yes I have. The jet stream has weakened causing arctic air blasts into the south messing with normal summer temperatures in southern Canada. Our glaciers are melting.

I spent an afternoon at the museum today. Looking at urban winter scenes in Montreal and Toronto from 1900-1908: lots of snow, lots of horse-drawn sleighs, virtually no motor vehicles.

Now we have record-breaking traffic over massive urban areas, constant air traffic. Tell me that is not also the case in Europe, the US, Russia, Mexico, India, Japan, China, Australia, New Zealand... and the list goes on.

All that, plus shipping and manufacturing all burning hydro carbons, globally.

In the space of 100 years.

No impact on climate, or impact on climate? Do nothing, or do something? Work hard to reduce emissions, or roll back restrictions?

The correct answers seem obvious to me.
@rrider avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Triumph Bonneville 2022, Triumph Street Scrambler 2018 (sold), Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3197
Location: Finland
 
Ossessionato
@rrider avatar
Triumph Bonneville 2022, Triumph Street Scrambler 2018 (sold), Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3197
Location: Finland
UTC quote
I've been fortunate to work with some "Big Data" guys.

As it happens, temperature is one of the rare things that have been measured and recorded long time around the globe. It is also a simple and quite accurate to measure even with primitive devices.

Today, you'll get access to overwhelming amounts of almost real-time weather data.

Because of all this, temperature and weather analytics are typical test cases for the big data guys. Having followed those long enough, there is no argument about the long term warming itself, it is a fact.
In Finnish, sorry.... the upper curve is the global average temperature between the years 1850-2012
In Finnish, sorry.... the upper curve is the global average temperature between the years 1850-2012
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
... no ... it's just an optical illusion...
It is written in Finnish ...what's...
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