Modern Vespa

I have a week-old 2020 GTS HPE - just put a second tank of gas in it.

Over the past couple days, I've noticed that if I park the bike and then try to start it again within a few minutes (found a better parking spot, filled up the tank, etc.), the engine won't turn over when I press the button. I haven't been stranded yet - if I keep trying it will start - but it is a little concerning.

Has anyone else observed this? Do you know why? Do you think it will become a problem?

Are you certain you're not twisting the throttle even a tiny bit? The new ECUs won't allow the engine to start if there's any throttle applied.

I'll look out for that.

I can hear the engine trying to start, it just never sparks. I would think if it was a safety thing, it just wouldn't do anything at all (like how it won't start if you aren't braking).

When the dealer delivered the scooter to you, did they install a fresh battery and top up the charge? You might tell them about the starting issues and ask about the battery.

We have two 2018 Gts we bought new with one mile on them. The wife's bike has had that same problem. She hits the starter and get a grunt, hit it second time the bike starts.

We never have been stranded but it is getting worse. Now that we have close to 1000 miles on them the problem is really bad. Stopping for gas she may need to restart 4 to 6 times. If she is at a stop light she has to blip the throttle to keep it running. The spark cap is tight, the battery fuse is good.

The battery has been load tested twice and passes each time. Swapped in my battery on a cold bike 12.7 volts with bike off, 14.2 while idling but ride around for 20 to 40 minutes voltage at idle will be at 13.0 volts and drop to 12.5 at which time the bike starts to miss once the voltage drops below 12.5 the motor shuts off.
I believe it's the stator or regulator cutting out once it warms up.

The bike is heading to the dealer next week.

OP- you say sounds like it "tries to start" then later say doesn't turn over? Not playing gotcha but asking does it sound locked up or just not firing, or what...?

Dealer call.

Imagine an engine starting goes "eee eee eee eee vrooom."

Mine goes "eee eee eee eee" but not "vroom." If I hit the button a few times, it will eventually go "vroom."

(It's been a long time since I've had a car. It's a familiar sound, but I can't remember what the equivalent symptoms mean in a car.)

I texted the dealer before I opened this thread. He basically said keep an eye on it; Italian vehicles can be glitchy, but let him know if it becomes a problem.

That sounds like a problem to me. Call the dealer again and tell him to fix it (that's assuming you trust the dealer to do a good job).

If the engine is cranking it shouldn't be the battery, altho these scooters can be finicky with a slightly low voltage.

If it cranks 4-6 times then starts, could it be a fuel pump issue?

"Italian vehicles can be glitchy"... I'd be looking for another dealer. This isn't a car from the 19xx's...

Sure, anything mechanical made by humans can develop an issue, but to make a general statement like this instead of saying bring it in and let's hook it up the diagnostic computer to see if it has thrown any error codes would have been a more appropriate response.

I hope your issue gets resolved.

Check the spark plug cap is fitted tightly to the spark plug. As the bike is relatively new, it could always been a tad loose.

My 2018 Sprint 150 became hard to start in the first 1000km of ownership. It would take a lot of cranking from cold to get it started, but I never had a problem with a hot start.

There were no obvious issues with the spark plug or valve clearances, and after the first service the mechanic cleared the fault log in the FI system and the problem disappeared.

I haven't checked the spark plugs yet or followed up with the dealer, but it happened again this morning, so I wanted to update the symptoms with a fresher memory.

I parked it, saw a safer parking place, and tried to move it. When I held the starter button, it went "chet chet" and then gave up. I had remembered that it kept trying to start and never did, but that wasn't my experience this morning - it made two noises and then stopped. It didn't make another noise until I released the button and tried again.

I see shadydevil74 has started a thread with what might be a worse version of the same issue. Makes me wonder if my valves are overtight too. I feel like there have been a couple times when I'm accelerating and it hesitates for an instant, but it happens so quickly/infrequently that I haven't been confident there's a problem.

I'll message the dealer again.

Check that the battery terminal connections are tight.

Sounds like a duff battery.

Bill x

As above, that sounds like a very duff battery (or just its connections of course).

Both are not uncommon on a new bike.

Thanks - I'll look into that.

I've never owned a motorcycle before. Do they have alternators? I'd have thought the battery would be the most repleted after a ride, but I trust you guys to know more than I do.

That's what we're here for.

Yes they have alternators.

Bill x

Yes your bike has an alternator, as well as a regulator rectifier to convert AC to a regulated 12V DC.

In my experience batteries do die more often when they are hot than when they are cold. As an example the battery will have no problem cranking and starting the engine cold, but will struggle to turn the engine over when hot. Something to do with internal shorts developing when the battery is hot.

A really sick battery may not have enough voltage to fire the solenoid switch which engages power to the electric starter and that is normally when you get the rapid clicking from the solenoid but no cranking.

Is your battery struggling to turn the engine over at a "normal" speed or is it just not firing into life when you do that?

Started as a spark plug post; now down the rabbit hole we go

If you like reading, some of the information in the post above might be helpful. I had a similar problem; it ended up being the ECU. I suggest you have the dealer look at it since it's still under warranty.

Sounds like what frequently happens (but not always) with my new-to-me 2016 ABS GTS.

I press the starter and it grunts but won't start. I wait a second, press the starter firmly and it starts right up.

I think the reason is that the starter button has two uses. Once the engine is running, pressing the starter doesn't engage the starter it turns the traction control off and on.

There is a circuit/chip that controls the mode for the switch. I think that depending on circumstances it gets confused and switches off the starter when the starter is first pressed.

I think that the option to turn off the traction control may have been moved from the starter button to a dedicated button on later models.

If this is is what you are experiencing I don't think it's a concern, it's just annoying.

Have exact the same problem with my '19 HPE. Though the battery connectors were not tight enough, but that is not the reason. I guess there is some extensive resistance on the way to the starter motor or its relay. Maybe Robot can tell something?

Now it's getting colder and the problem is less obvious. So I am kind of forgetting about it until next spring..

P.S. The spark plug cap was also lose off the factory...

The cold kills more batteries than heat.

The battery is surrounded by heat when the engine is running so where you've got that idea from I'll never know.

Bill x

The problem is not in the battery

I too, was surprised when I was told that a couple years ago.

Here's a quote from Firestone Auto Care...

Corrosion will irreversibly damage the internal structure of the battery, and it's even worse when your battery is "parched." ... Then when winter comes, "Temps don't have to fall far to make starting a car too hard for a heat-weakened battery. Cold kills car batteries. And heat is its accomplice,"

So you've told us what it isn't, so what is it if you know ?

Kind of a strange posting.

The thing that we're not mentioning is that batteries can fail over night with no warning.

Bill x

Actually, batteries love being cool, they self-discharge far less if at all - but the deliverable current will be reduced. When warm they can deliver more current, but they don't like being held at very high temps (>110°C) for protracted periods. Under the hood in a car that moves quite a bit is absolutely fine.

So in the winter there's no need to bring a battery indoors if the bike isn't going to be used. If it was fully charged when left, it'll retain near full charge for many months at sub-freezing temps. However, make sure it gets back to a reasonable (10°C or more) temp before being first used in the spring.

We are discussing heat and COLD effect on batteries, not being "cool".

When cold at 32 degrees, they lose 35% cranking power.
At 0 degrees, they lose 60%

Yes, but they won't get damaged by being used at those temperatures. However a battery that's already on the way out will invariably show the first signs of its demise as the weather turns colder. It's the busy season for roadside assistance!

Yes, just like I posted above from Firestone.

The dealer was doing another delivery in town tonight, so I popped over to show him. He confirmed it's not normal. 🙃

During preparation (before I took delivery), my check engine light was on. Updating the software fixed it. I wonder if this is related.

I'm about 2 weeks away from my 1000km service. That'll give him a chance to take a look at it with proper equipment.

I'll update this thread when I learn more.

My dealer tried to replicate the issue at the 1000km service, and again this week when he took possession for the brake recall. Piaggio is also interested, as there have been other reports of this problem, but the cause hasn't yet been diagnosed.

Three times they couldn't replicate it. On the fourth, the throttle incorrectly reported it was slightly open. The throttle has been reset.

Of course, I'll keep a look out to see if this problem continues or is now resolved.

Hours and hours of battery maintenance training, heat deteriorates batteries, cold kills them.

Had to go work a trouble ticket.
More info.

So the heat deteriorates the battery and the added stress of turning over a cold motor with thick oil kills that deteriorated battery.

I second that... swap with a new battery first, before moving onto more expensive solutions!

Graham

EXACTLY ^^^

Are you sure you have good gas in it?

As the owner of an electric car, I definitely agree that heat is the enemy of battery capacity.

Are you awaiting for the 3 to 5 seconds for the fuel pump to prime up?

My dealer took another look at it today, and it sounds like they've solved it. The theory is that the decompression lobe on the cam isn't working correctly - that there's more pressure in the engine when it's hot, so the starter has to fight harder to turn it over.

They've ordered a replacement. I'll let you know how it goes.

My scooter does this sometimes too, I think it's the ASR system considering the acceleration request it's been handed.

The slight pausing is not related to starting though - I've never had mine not start.