Modern Vespa

Found this pup on E-Bay - looks pretty nice all electric motor power.


The Vectrix


Be the 1st to get a Vectrix in a custom color! The choice is yours - pick any of the four colors currently available or choose any color you want!

Vectrix is the mode of transportation for tomorrow. This fully electric maxi scooter is freeway capable reaching speeds of up to 62 mph. With the electric engine offering power equivalent to a 400cc combustion engine, the bike offers plenty of power for moving in and out of traffic. Power transfer is instantaneous and it performs beautifully with acceleration times of 6.8 seconds from 0-50 mph and 3.6 seconds from 0-31 mph.

The NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride) battery has a 3.7 kW-h capacity and only requires a standard 110v outlet to charge. It only needs 3 hours to charge 80%. On a single charge it can travel up to 68 miles! Estimated life of the battery pack is 10 years/50,000 miles.

Weight is 462 lbs with a wheelbase of 60" and seat height of 30". Front wheel is 14" and the rear measures 13." For convenience, it offers an under-seat storage of 1.41 cu ft (enough for 1 full-faced helmet) and the glove compartment measures .21 cu. ft. It can comfortably carry 2 people.

Here's the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-2007-ALL-ELECTRIC-VECTRIX-SCOOTER-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ140160274544QQihZ004QQcategoryZ6719QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Yeah there are a couple threads floating around here on it. One recently called 'Maxi scooter' or something like that. They've been out in Rome for a little while now, and look nice in the store window. Haven't been able to test one yet, and haven't noticed one on the street yet either.

They had these at the San Mateo motorcycle show this weekend, and I test rode one. Very impressive. Good accelleration, good handling. Interesting feature is that you can rotate the throttle backwards and it turns on regenerative breaking -- slows you down a moderate amount by turning the motor into a generator and recharging the battery. Riding it is kind of spookey since it is completely silent!

Another interesting twist (pardon the pun) is that when you are stopped, and you rotate the throttle backwards, it runs the motor in reverse and you back up!

The have some interesting safety features, since the scooter is silent when running. When you turn the key to on, it boots up the bike. When the display starts flashing, then it's booted and ready to go, but still won't move. To unlock it, you have to squeeze and release the left break, then pump the right brake once. That turns the display to "GO", and you're all set. Oh, except it will not move if the kick-stand is down, so you need to pop that up too.

Looks like a very interesting and usable city commuter. 3 hours to recharge fully (at about 75-cents per charge), and runs for about 80 miles. Top speed 60-65. And it has a plug in the trunk that will plug into any regular 110v outlet.

The major down-side is the price. $11,000! ALthough CA will be offering a electric-vehicle rebate of $2-3K supposedly, which will apply to this.

-Dan

there was a review on it in scootering magazine last month i think.

goes like stink off the line supposedly.

I'm not a big fan of maxi-scooters, but I would buy this in a heartbeat if I had some extra money. We soon may not have a choice as the worlds population is out pacing oil production.
Check out this disturbing website, it's really freaking me out

www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

Top speed 62 mph, range 68 miles....but. What is the range at 62 mph? A flaw in electric vehicle data is that the ranges given tend to be at reduced speeds such as 25 or 30 mph. My guess would be that the full throttle range would probably be about half what is listed. Hope I'm wrong.

I put some miles on the Vetrex that Scoot was given for a demo.

The bike is a heavy pig.....big too.

The range numbers are WAY overstated.

I used almost 1/2 of a charge in 10 or so miles, 10 hard miles thou....

Has good power, sounds kewl too....

Interesting machine but, IMHO, not ready for prime time.

R

8)

Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UavzO53aImY

That's pretty neat. There are 26 other threads featuring 'Vectrix,' on MV.

What I like is how much they charge for a really bad Givi mounting plate for their scooter.

I know and love the owner of the SF dealership, and wish MR. Quavale of BMC th best of luck, but as Glasseye said it's not ready for prime time - I'll wait for the hybrid MP3...

This post was not quite
What we were hoping to see
Try again, perhaps?

I'll wait for the electric Vespa! I want the first one off the assembly line!

I will be waiting for the Hybrid Vespa or MP3...The Elektro 1 looks like a toy not a scooter.


Jon

This post was not quite
What we were hoping to see
Try again, perhaps?

Sorry little ... but if I wanted a plastic scooter, I would get one from Mattel!

smells like spam to me.

Every household appliance or weed eater I've tried that runs on batteries is underpowered, fails, or suffers battery failure within a year. One stand on scooter ran pretty well but suffered parts failures and worn out batteries, also in one year. Better batteries are coming at premium prices, but $11,000 for a scooter that goes 62 mph and about 60 miles isn't going to sell outside a narrow niche. 60 miles of range hardly gets some of us a round trip out of town and certainly not on freeways or even two-lane roads that require speeds in excess of 62 even on flat ground. Though Vectrix is supposed to be a quality unit, I believe that inferior battery powered products are probably delaying public acceptance of this genre.

It was. I've removed the user and their spam.

So for thousands more than a GTS, you get half the initial range, 60 times the refueling time (3 minutes versus three hours), plus it's slower and heavier.

The advantage seems to be $.75 for a recharge versus $4, but in return you are limited to a 30 mile range from your house (and back), versus unlimited range with a GTS.

The most ridiculous thing is that California, which was broke the last time I checked, would pay $3,000 per vehicle to make this turkey sell.

The MP3 Hybrid makes sense, but this Vectrix makes no sense at all.

The Vectrix is NOT a replacement for most scooters. Understand that, and grasp what the Vectrix is.

It is for people like me. Love to ride. Ride daily. Commute < 15 miles. Has a place to charge while at work. Maintains both a bike and a car for longer treks but for daily commuting the Vectrix is a perfect fit.

It's real world range is closer to 40 miles to drained, 25-30 is more practical usage, and even then it's heavily dependent upon how much the rider adapts to using regeneration rather than braking and use more energy efficient starts and stops.

Is it where it needs to be? not yet. The complaints are valid.

1. Charging is slow. Current federal limits on the chargers is 50amps, with an 80amp limit a 2 hour charge goes to 20 minutes.
2. The bikes are heavy. Current battery technologies are heavy, nothing on the near horizon changes that.
3. Hard acceleration eats battery. Current implementations have no way to accomodate the burst drain that an electric motor places upon the battery (threre are interesting options that are in development that should help).
4. Charging while out and about remains problematic. Until more EV's are on the road, and there is a universal power plug adapter for charging them at destinations. this is unlikely to change (see #1)
5. The broad ramifications of widespread EV adoption places burdens upon and already aging power grid that is not smart enough to address and deal with these loads.

So no, they are not there yet, but I am looking hard at acquiring one for myself (hence the above knowledge) for a purely economic reason, but not the one you think.

From a long term view point, we *have* to reduce our demands on current fuels. Despite the hazards of current battery technologies, and the continuing demand for plastics from petroleum, electric power looks like the most viable available solution. In order for it to become both pervasive and attractive, we have to tell the vendors we want it. In a free market economy, we have just one way to do that.

Our checkbooks.

So while I do not think it is a perfect answer (the Hybrid MP3 is at LEAST 2 years away, and with it's weight will not be a good answer), I do feel that it is the best answer available *today*. The only way we communicate that we want to see more products to compete with it, and for vendors to spend money developing better answers, is to buy the best of what's available *today*.

Ultimately, I want to see a Vespa powered by an electric in wheel motor, pulling it's power from a more efficient energy storage device than a battery. In the meantime, I have to prod the companies building the products out of the lethargy that allows the current technologies to persist. In the meantime, I have to buy what's there, now, to provide the required stimulus.

If I had a 15 mile commute to work or less I could buy a used SUV and still spend less money in gas (and goverment subsidized taxpayer money) over a 7 year period. Thus the Vectrix is not the best idea today at all. If you have to pay somebody $3-$4k of taxpayer money to buy it, then the technology isn't quite good enough. A regular Vespa GTS is plenty "green", and will accomplish everything the Vectrix will, and more.

In my opinion the only way an electric vehicle will ever be feasable is if it uses a gasoline/hybrid engine (plus regenerative braking) to recharge itself while it is moving, or if it uses a hydrogen fuel cell to power the electric motors. The infrastructure for nationwide hydrogen refueling is decades and trillions of dollars in the future.

For the record, I have a hybrid electric vehicle already. It uses a human/electric powered motor, costs about $1,100 (with no taxpayer subsidy), emits no pollution, and won't leave me stranded if I run out of juice.



http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-US/bikes/lifestyle/1272/29755/

Ooooo! Nice!
And that price seems lower than last time I looked

Very promising!

The coolest thing about this is that you still get an aerobic workout, but you can cover far more distance than on a regular bike. If you give the pedal force the electric motor adds an equal amount of force, so you can clock along at great speeds compared to a regular bike. When you get too tired, or are going up a hill you can twist the handgrip, and after about 3 seconds it will go completely on electric power to propel you at around 12-15 mph until you get your heart rate back down a bit. As soon as you apply pedal force it immediately goes back to pedal/electric assist mode. If the battery dies, you just ride it home and plug it in, or you can carry the charger on a pack that fits on the rear rail. Total weight is about 56 lbs, so it's heavier than a regular bike, but seems just as agile while riding it.

i like this better...the bionx system

The Only Electric Road Bike!*

They said it is impossible to have an electric road bicycle ...
They are wrong!
We installed a powerful BionX PL-350 Electric Bicycle Conversion System on this Norco CRD-4 bike. Yes, it is now 16 lbs heavier, but you get to 35 mph in no time and with no effort! A high speed BionX electric hub motor was used delivering road speeds far above legal limit for electric bicycles here in Canada. Yes, the speed limit was disabled, and of course this is now an "OFF ROAD USE ONLY" electric bicycle.

This is also a pure pedal assist electric bicycle (no throttle) and definitely a pure fun!

I ride a bicycle to work some as well, but the lack of a shower at the office prevents that from being a daily occurence once temps get above 80.

That said, I think you are missing the point (and your SUV point has so many holes in it, I'm not going to bother).

But it all boils down to a simple point, one that we've seen and known for 30 years, but done nothing about.

In the 70's the US faced a fuel issue where prices went up because we utterly failed to manage out energy usage. That crisis led us to buy smaller cars for a while, and the auto makers gave more of what we bought, not what they knew we needed to buy. This is what a free market economy does.

SO we have the choice of buying a less than optimal product today to encourage a broader base of choices in a couple of years or keep the status quo and in those same couple of years hit the oh shit button because we didn't do what it takes to encourage adoption of an alternative.

You lament the tax incentives, but they exist for the very reason above. They are there to provide a stimulus to a market that needs a little help to get started. There is also the federal grant moneys going towards research and development, not only of batteries but grid enhancements, recharging enhancements and others. If noone buys in today, it amounts to a hill of beans, because no vendor will keep investing in a product that has no apparent market. This is the other reality of the free market.

bob from scooterville won the cold weather challenge on a vectrix.

I'd love to walk you through the math.

I can buy a nice used SUV for less than $5,000. I can then take the $6,000 difference between a Vectrix price, plus the $3,000 Vectrix subsidy ($9,000) and buy 750 gallons of fuel (per year), at $2.15 cents per gallon ($1,612) for a total of 5 1/2 years of free fuel.

If I carry a passenger, the my effective fuel cost per passenger is cut in half. If I carry 5 people my fuel cost per passenger drops even further.

I'm no even factoring depreciation into account, where a 5 year old Vectrix will probably be in the junkyard, whle a Suburban will still be going strong, and worth at least $3k. The price of fuel went up in the 1970s because of OPEC raising prices (by cutting supply. See: Arab Oil Embargo) and because of runaway inflation. Our energy usage had little to do with it.

On the subject of small cars, we didn't build fuel efficient cars in this country because our automakers cannot produce one at a profit while at a $42 per hour labor disadvantage (including health and legacy costs) compared to our non-union competition. We built cars that were larger because those were the only ones that we could make and turn a profit. Blame the UAW for our lack of a viable small car in America. They are building Nissans in Tennessee, Hondas in Ohio, and Toyotas in Texas without Union labor. Their employees are payed well, and they are turning a profit. Go figure.

Ironically, after bankruptcy breaks the back of the UAW and brings wage parity, you will see plenty of well designed profitable small cars coming from GM and Chrysler, if they remain in business. The simple fact is that if the technology is feasable and profitable, it will be developed to fill the need. See Honda and Toyota in the '70s for an example of technology and market forces filling a need. To waste tax payer money on an expensive scooter that no sane person would use their own money to buy? If people wanted an electric scooter they would buy one without a broke government having to subsidize 30% of the purchase price, just to get it in the same price range as a loaded Vespa GTS.

That is more wasted money down the drain. With oil below $50 a barrel it does not make economic sense to buy an electric vehicle. When oil was above $140 you saw consumers change their behavior without wasting taxpayer funds, and market forces dictated what people wanted to buy. Even with oil that high people would not buy a vehicle that takes 8 hours to recharge and has a 60 mile range for the price of a new Nissan Versa.

Face it. It's been 40 years, and we still don't have a viable electric vehicle (a vehicle that is not subsidized and sells at a competitive price to a regular car.) after hundreds of billions of dollars in research has been wasted. The future is with designs like the Piaggio hybrid, which does not require $4k to get people interested in buying it.

Since that was a challenge to see who could do a 10 mile commute in the coldest weather, that is more a testament to Bob and the weather in Minnesota than a Vectrix.

Nanook of the North would have won on a Honda Gyro if he had internet.

I just say that the Vectrix and other electric scoots are a great idea, at least in theory. But for the most part, most of them just don't quite have the guts-to-power and range ratio that people will accept. I'm sure they'll get better with time. But right now, it's just not worth the cost to most folks. I'd seriously consider one if I knew I could make a highway trip out of town without getting stuck on the side of the road, or sitting at a charging station half the day.

Maybe someday.

All they really need is to dump half the batteries and install a 50cc motor that recharges it while you ride, just like the Hybrid MP3 (with a 125cc motor) does.

The only other viable solution would be a battery pack that is removable so you could go to a refueling station and just swap it out for a fully charged one. The flaw there is that those battery packs are unbelievable expensive. I priced a replacement for my E-Bike and it was north of $400, or 40% of the bike's total price.

I love this argument, I've heard it alot even with regards to my gas powered scooter (as well as my SMART car).

What it doesn't address is wear and tear and mechanical parts, which aren't obscene, but definately effect the cost per mile. Your simplified math is fine, as far as it goes. But then again, use your own numbers against your Vespa, and lo and behold, your SUV analogy is still a better deal. When you start factoring in those 'other costs', things suddenly get real murky and a case can be made either way. There is another issue. The SUV engine and platform is at it's absolute worst in this usage. The engine never warms up enough to run efficiently. During starting and stopping, it belches out it's worst toxins in it's highest volumes. The wear and tear of this kind of mileage vastly exceeds the wear and tear of highway mileage. The wear and tear on a 15 year old transmission, tires getting 12-18k miles because of the weight and wear of stop and go, in-town driving.

I understand what you are trying to say, and the point has merit, but at the same time, I know that my6 year old Dodge Durango averages about $1200 in service costs last year, up from the $950 from the year before and $600 the year before. Based upon previous experience I expect the number to plateau to an average of about $2200 per year in maintenance (above expected maintenance of tires, oil, brakes, etc). While this is less than the cost of payments on a new vehicle, it remains a large chunk of change your quickie math does not take into account.

I think you already know this, so I don't really need to point out all the nit picky details, or the assumption that gas will stay at $2.15 for the next 5 years (it won't). As for the 5 years to a junkyard, with something like the Vectrix there is probably an equal chance that in 5 years it will be on it's way to collectors item status. Does the cause really matter when the end result is the same? low supply, high prices and economic crunch? I don't disagree, but at the same time, attempts to bring viable small car alternatives have struggled to gain traction as well. If the market was there, you can bet that ther product would be as well (which illustrates my point about our spending). Economic theory implies this, however, history shows this is not always the case. In many cases the better technology does not always make it to market, nor even market dominance. Honda and Toyota did fill a need, yet today, they are following the same path the US automakers have. The truly efficient vehicles do not even come to the US market, why? Because we have sent a clear message that we don't want them by buying larger cars, as well as allowed our own government to be pressured by lobbyists into preventing them from making it into this market. Witness the 60 mpg SMART's, Audi's and VW's that Europe can have and meet clean air restrictions equal to ours, while those vehicles are not available here. You have focused on the tax thing several times, but it is not valid in many states. Though California and Georgia are both states that do offer an incentive. In Georgia's case, the tax break comes in the form of a credit, issued against the purchase price of an electric vehicle (car of motorcycle). That money is not 'costing taxpayers', it is my tax dollars that simply aren't going into the pot, and is still a drop in the bucket compared to the write off for mortgage interest for most homeowners.

Price wise, early adopters *always* pay a premium. This is historical trend. People paid 24-36k for grey market SMART's 5 years ago. How much did it cost to lease a Saturn EV-1? What about the Honda's Fuel Cell trial cars in LA?

Those of us that are early adopters understand that we are paying a premium to be early adopters. I have never argued otherwise. Yes, with oil prices down, it may be hard to stomach the expense, but look at the flip side. When prices hit $140 last summer, scooter sales went off the charts. Supply could not meet demand. Dealers had no inventory, nor hopes of getting inventory in a timely manner. Automakers found themselves with inventory they could not give away, and as a result they find themselves with entire product lines that are no longer viable in the sales chain. It takes roughly 5 years for a new car to go from start to the showroom. With that kind of reaction time, the automakers cannot wait to bring product to market until market pressures make it the 'only choice'. I think that is why we are seeing these incentives in place today, there is an understanding that the consumer is going to need a push to embrace alternatives. Including the 'electric first hybrids' which use an internal combustion engine as a generator to suppliment batteries (serial hybrid). Those solutions aren't replacements for todays power plants either, since a small ICE doesn't generate enough power to push an electric motor as fast as the battery systems do, so even on generator, these hybrids will be unable to run at the same speeds as they do in a full charge configuration. 40 years? keep going. The first electric vehicles date back to the 1830's. The gas powered vehicle did not become ascendant until Ford started selling them for cheap in 1908.

It could be argued that had it not been for Ford's use of the assembly line, that the gas engine would not have gained ascendancy since the electric car topped the sales market in 1899 and 1900.

The cheap gas mindset kept electric vehicles out of the market for 50 years until the gas crunches of the late 60's and 70's suddenly ressurected interest in them. Since then, they have stuttered and stopped with every up and down cycle of oil prices. Interestingly, if you look at scooter and motorcycle sales, they have followed much the same pattern in recent (1950+) history.

But all of this discussion really helps support my contention that we have a choice. Embrace alternatives now with our dollars, or find ourselves struggling through a period where the manufacturers are having to rush half ass solutions to market to meet a rapidly changed environment the next time gas prices shoot up above the $5/gallon mark.

Sure, there is the possibility that gas prices will creep up, and if they do that, it won't be a rush, but history shows us that gas is boom and bust. Personally, I am unwilling to take that risk.

I long ago concluded that the cheapest answer is rarely the best answer to most things in life. I write software for Windows. I use a Mac. A Kymco scooter is cheaper and has the same feature set as the scooter I chose. I ride a Piaggio. The Zune is cheaper, I carry an iPod. I often choose to spend more on early adopter or superior products even when there are cheaper or more popular products on the market largely based upon my belief that the dollar is the only power I really have over the economy and products offered.

Which is a long winded answer to why, though I understand your points, I respectfully disagree that your SUV is a better answer, and that the Vectrix is a vehicle that only an idiot would buy. I'm perfectly happy to be an idiot in your opinion. Based upon your own arguments, I already fit the bill, owning both a scooter and a SMART car. Adding a Vectrix to the equation rounds it all out .

I didn't buy my Vespa for economy. I bought it as a toy. Say what? My Suburban runs very efficiently, and the engine warms up just fine. The same could be said about belching particulates on acceleration for any vehicle. That is just how an internal combustion engine works. You always use more energy accelerating a mass than you do maintaining a speed.


Again, that is the same for any vehicle. As I pointed out, the replacement cost for just the battery on my E-Bike is 40% of the original purchase price. Assume the battery of the Vectrix is similar, and now compare that with spending 40% of a cost of a new Durango, but 7 years down the line. Face it, the Vectrix will be a throw away vehicle by then. It may go lower, right? Not likely. In 5 years the battery technology will probably make the Vectrix look like a 486 PC running Windows 98. Yes, it does matter, because it was not due to "energy mismanagement". It was an artificial supply shortage created by an Oil Embargo, compounded by high inflation.

We have plenty of oil, and should be drilling for more. We also have 400 years worth of coal that could be converted to liquid fuel using the Fischer-Tropsch process (AKA: coal gasification). There should ever be a shortage of energy in the United states if we would just use our own resources. You can thank our highly retrictive laws for the inability of smaller cars like the Fiat Panda, or some of the highly efficient diesel cars from making inroads into America. We had the market last year, but we couldn't get the cars. Just look how long it took for the Smart Car, which I happen to love, to make it in. I agree, as stated above. Any "credit" is a manipulation of the free market, and the money to pay for that credit has to come from somewhere, in this case from diminished state tax revenue. I'm all for you keeping more of your own money before the government steals it, but I don't think it is good policy to use tax dollars to prop up faled business models that cannot make it without the credit. That is fine, if they have their own money to burn. Jay Leno has a new hybrid hydrogen fuel cell Honda, but I don't mind if Leno spends his own money on it. It's your money, so I have no problem with that. But now oil has fallen back to normal levels, so if the automakers had built nothing but econoboxes, they would have miscalculated doubly.

Not so fast. Ford F-150 sales are up 21% in Canada.

Ford Canada Sees F-150 Sales Up 21%, Truck and SUV Sales Hold Up
March 6, 2009
By Benson Kong

Trucks, crossovers, and SUVs are still holding up strong in Canada, as Ford Canada has once again outdone the Canadian auto industry for the 4th consecutive month. Ford's market share is up again following reports of February's sales total, thanks to trucks and SUVs include the F-150, Escape, and Flex.

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/news/2009/163_news090306_canada_ford_f150_sales/index.html The consumer does not need a push to purchase what they perceive to be in their own best interests. The free market always decides. For all you know, gas may decline further as the recession continues, and then this central planning looking 5 years out will have failed as nobody wants to buy the small cars. If we could eventually get rid of the uAW and get true wage parity with the competition, we will see smaller cars become available again because they will be profitable again. Just speaking of recent history, and government $ thrown at the electric vehicle. It could also be argued that the electric vehicle peaked in 1900. I would argue that the inherent disadvantages of an electric vehicle have doomed it, not gas prices. I will never buy a vehicle that only has a 60 mile range. Other choices include drilling in ANWR, building Coal Gasification Plants, building refineries, and increasing our domestic supplies of fuel so that there won't be a price spike based on manipulated demand by OPEC. I'm all for getting rid of the UAW so we can build economical domestic cars, and I am all for the relaxation of safety and pollution standards to allow the cars like the micro-diesels in Europe or the Kei cars from Japan. I don't mind if you buy a Vectrix with your own money.

I am certainly not calling you an idiot, for I happen to like the Smart car, and I own multiple scooters, and E-Bike, and two cars that get over 43 MPG. I also own a Suburban that I would never do without, and I am happy that gas is cheap enough to consider purchasing a new one.

i'm in this thread for the gangban... whoops, i mean i'm here to add my electric bike to the mix:



Nexus 7 internally geared rear hub. Crystalyte 407 up front. 48V 12Ah LiFePO4 in the pannier. 72V 20A pedal-first controller on the downtube. parts via ebikes.ca, backyard engineering by yours truly. will do 23-25 mph on the flat, and i use about 30 Wh/mile riding typically-i could use 0 Wh/mile but i built this thing to supplement my efforts, not just to be a dead weight.

8)

i'm a huge proponent of EVs but i don't think the Vectrix is there yet. you don't see me rushing to buy one, for instance, even though there's at least one seattle dealer.

That's cool.

Where is the battery, in the bags?

Is it elecric assited, like my Suede E, or all battery until it goes dead?

the battery lives in the waterproof pannier bag, with the remainder of the bag and the whole other side's bag left for cargo. it's not a pedelec so will propel you along without pedaling if you wish. it uses a twist throttle. being home-built it doesn't strictly adhere to the power and speed limits that commercial e-bikes hew to:



the axes on the graph are kind of busy, but the takeaway message is that it puts 600-680 W (1 hp ~= 750W) to the ground between 18-24 mph.

8)

Actually, you could probably just swap out the batteries for newer ones and recycle the old ones, and get a higher top speed and/or longer range - without having to buy a new vehicle.

Seth

If they engineered it that way. Consider that electric sports car that uses something like 5,000 individual lithium ion batteries. I'd hate to be the guy who had to replace those.

Vectrix is planning to offer an upgrade fro Lithium when it's avaialble. Time will tell though.

even though the Tesla uses many individual A123 cells they're packaged in units. individually they're not much use, but in a unit with a climate control system and a battery (charge) management system it's useful indeed. in fact, most larger packs are made up of smaller individual cells, even if not quite as small as the ones Tesla uses...

here's the inside of my bike's pack, for instance, 15 x 3.3V 12 Ah cells to make a nominally 48V 12 Ah pack when mounted together with a proper BMS:

What are those batteries normally used for?

I posted this on it a few weeks ago: